CT Luke's Force sensitivity between ANH and TESB

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Billy_Dee_Binks, Jan 15, 2013.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But I don't think it is very plausible.

    1) Why would Ben write some manual for Luke? Did he know he would die? How? And even if he knew that, the plan seemed to be to send Luke to Yoda. And if both he and Yoda were dead then since they can appear as Force Ghosts they can simply tell him rather than write it all down.

    2) If Ben DID write this manual, why didn't he give it to Luke in ANH along with the ligtsaber?
    Why leave it in his hut on the off-chance that Luke might come by later?

    3) How did Luke know about it? Obi-Wan never said anything about it in ANH and based on ESB it seems that Obi-Wans Force ghost had not spoken to Luke between ANH and ESB. And RotJ makes it very clear that Obi-Wan had not spkoen to Luke after Cloud City. I can buy that Luke went by Obi-Wans hut just before going to Jabba but did he go there and just happen to find it?

    4) Why would this still be there? Sure Obi-Wans hut was pretty remote but there were Sandpeople and Jawas and other looters about. Would they leave this hut alone for several years?

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luke had to learn to make a new lightsaber. Ben's hut was where he went to find out how.

    Both Ben & Yoda had to learn to become Force Ghosts, from Qui-Gon. It makes sense to plan for the eventuality that one is killed before one learns.
  3. Alexis_Wingstar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2006
    star 4
    Handbook or no handbook, I think Luke could learn some stuff on his own. I mean, really, how did the first Force-sensitives (pre-Jedi) learn these powers? Also, borrowing on what BigAI6ft6 said, there is something to be said for the old adage, "Necessity breeds inventiveness." Luke needed that lightsaber to free himself so he wouldn't be the abominable snowman's dinner. He knew how to use the Force, and he was desperate.
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Or Yoda had told him about during the training on Dagobah.
    If either of both are killed before talking to Luke then their plan doesn't work as Luke wouldn't know where Ben's hut is or have any reason to go there. If Obi-Wan had this manual just lying around then why didn't he give it to Luke?

    I can buy that this manual that he had was just old pages from some Jedi manual that he kept as a memory of the Jedi Order. Or that he had spare parts in his hut just in case he needed to fix his own lightsaber and Luke used them.

    But it is also possible that Yoda had told him the basics of making a lightsaber and Luke just used that or he figured it out on his own.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  5. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Side discussion: I will say if I wasn't such a huge Star Wars nerd and knew, and truly deeply accepted, that it was a year between ESB & ROTJ, just by watching Ep. V and Ep. VI it does seem, like, at most, a week between the two movies. "I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine." Then, boom!, after Vader growls in the opening scene ROTJ opens up on Tatooine. The EU, Shadows of the Empire, etc. explains why it took them so long to get to Han at Jabba the Hutt's place (kinda) but, in the context of just the films, it would be a pretty lame thing that it took them a freakin' year. I mean, Boba Fett has Han to bring to Jabba. Jabba on Tatoonie. That shouldn't be longer than, like, 2 weeks, max to get to Jabba's front door.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Jan 29, 2013
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Technically, it's 8 months, not a year. I'm guessing that while ESB takes place in 3 ABY, it's close to the middle of the year, which is why Shadows of the Empire's date is usually given as 3.5 ABY, and RoTJ takes place in 4 ABY.

    (ABY: After Battle of Yavin.)
  7. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    It's pretty evident that such an important aspect as Luke's skill development between masters has hardly been covered by GL or the EU. Curious when you think about it.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In Marvel Star Wars Luke's lightsaber skill rapidly improves after ANH.

    Splinter of the Mind's Eye also shows an early use of telekinesis- although it's not under conscious control.
  9. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    If we put both trilogies face to face, we can clearly see that Luke's lightsaber skills are nowhere near as good as the PT Jedi. So are his Force powers, when compared to someone from the old Jedi Order.
    I think that it was a nice touch from Lucas having Luke train for a short period of time, while also being clear that he was not ready for his encounter with Vader and the Emperor. His training HAD to be rushed for a number of reasons:
    1) Luke wanted to go to Cloud City to save his friends
    2) The Empire was ready to power-up the second DS and to launch a massive attack against the poorly equipped rebel forces.

    There simply was no time for a longer training. Obi-Wan and Yoda had to teach Luke in a few months what other Jedi learned in years. Yes, Luke was a poorly trained Jedi, but he was the only one. He was their only hope.
    1) It was not Luke's training that saved him in ESB. It was the fact that Vader was toying with him. Vader could have killed Luke in the first few minutes of the fight. But he didn't, because he had his reasons:
    a) to see how powerful Luke has become
    b) because he was his son
    c) because the Emperor said so
    d) because he wanted to take Luke as his own apprentice
    2) It was not Luke's training that saved him from the Emperor in RotJ. It was the fact that Vader changed sides in the last moment. Otherwise Palpatine would have continued to torture Luke, until he was dead.

    The point is that Luke's training was incomplete (just like Yoda said), and that can be seen in the movies. It is not unrealistic.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Feb 1, 2013
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  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Considering the level of Luke's skill in ROTJ, I find this implausible, even if his training was incomplete. Only a mentor could have guided him to that level. Or the combination of a mentor and a handbook.
  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Why?
    At the start of ESB, Luke could levitate a lightsaber but with some difficulty.
    After a couple of days with Yoda he could lift several rocks at once. Sure he had a mentor but his skill and power developed very quickly.
    If Yoda had taught him all the basics and all Luke had to do was to practice then I don't see the problem.
    Lukes power increases a lot in ESB and this after only a few weeks or 1-2 months of training. If he practiced alone for 1-2 months more then I don't have a problem with Luke skill level in RotJ.
    Sure he can fight Vader on a more equal footing in RotJ. But I got the distinct feeling that Vader wasn't trying as hard as he could. He seemed weaker and almost a broken man in RotJ. Different from the confident, powerfull Sith Lord in ESB.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  12. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    This is how I see it. From the end of 4 (the battle of Yavin) to the beginning of 5 (the wampa cave) he hasn't progressed all that much. In 4 he is capable of predicting when the training remote was going to shoot or getting the timing of when to release the proton torpedo exactly right. So he is capable of enhancing his timing and his reactions and his predictions through the force. In 5 he has improved a little bit but not that much. He is capable of influencing not just himself but the environment around him. He was capable of making his lightsaber jump into his hand in the cave (but not without some difficulty.) When he meets Yoda he improves vastly. Luke would have been squashed flat by Vader before the training on Dagobah. Yoda basically took his rudimentary skills and enhanced them to the point that he had the skills he needed to hold his own against a Sith Lord.
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    He did seem to understand how to quiet his mind and focus. The guy is about to get eaten by a giant snow monster and rather than panic, he brings himself to a moment of peace and is able to get his lightsaber. That would seem to indicate training.
  14. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    I just see it as Luke is simply that intuitive about how to go with the Force. He switches off the targeting computer and trusts his feelings when all he had be trained was to block a remote.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In ESB

    "I feel the Force!"
    "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you."

    "controlling the Force" might be what he learns between ESB and RoTJ.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    True, but that was also with Obi's spirit guiding him
  17. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    In ESB Vader fights with one hand. Clearly if he tried a bit harder, he could have killed Luke. But that wasn't his plan. He had to fight Luke to see just how strong he'd become.
    Luke had 3 separate fights with Vader in ESB.
    1st fight - During the first one, Vader fought with one hand, toyed with Luke to the point where he allowed Luke to *defeat* him. Luke's confidence grew and during the second fight he greatly underestimates Vader.
    2nd fight - Vader used that confidence to his advantage and after just a few attacks, he used only the Force to defeat Luke. Luke was so confident, that he forgot that Jedi also fight with the Force. Vader stands by as things fly by Luke, rendering him incapable of striking back.
    3rd fight - Luke was taken by surprise during the last fight. Now he's confused, possibly scared too. During their last encounter, Vader is no longer toying with him. He attacks first, his attacks are harder to block - Luke was overwhelmed, culminating with losing his hand. Only then does Vader talk to Luke, since the beginning of their first fight. Luke was beaten, no longer confident, scared. So Vader thought that he could convince Luke to join him. But Luke chose death, as a last resort. It was only by luck (or will of the Force) that he was sucked in the garbage tunnels and eventually rescued. But I am pretty much sure that Luke knew he was defeated. At the very least he could kill himself rather than allowing Vader to take him as an apprentice.

    In RotJ, the situation is very similar. Vader and Palpatine brought Luke to turn him to the Dark Side. Again, I don't think that Vader's intentions were to kill Luke. Luke had learned a few things since ESB, so he was able to resist more than before.
    He is unwilling to fight/kill his father. Vader wants to fight him, but not kill him. Vader is still much stronger and forces Luke to hide behind some pillars.
    Luke's final attack on Vader had two aspects:
    1. Luke takes Vader by surprise, so is now in a more aggressive stance.
    2. Luke's emotions take over him. He is angry and he wants to destroy Vader, no matter what. Since Vader is still unwilling to kill Luke, he fights like earlier. Luke on the other hand lands a decisive strike and mercilessly cuts Vader's arm off. The Dark Side *boosted* Luke's powers, just like the Emperor said. But once again, Luke refuses to give in to his anger and throws his lightsaber, as a last gesture of refusal towards joining the Emperor (and thus killing his father). He would rather be defenseless against the Emperor, than finish Vader and join Sidious.

    That is of course my interpretation of the two encounters. I believe that at no point during ESB or RotJ was Luke able to defeat Vader in a even fight. Only after he almost turned to the Dark Side was he able to defeat his father.
    Luke's skills alone were still insufficient to destroy Vader in RotJ.


    That's what I found so interesting about the OT lightsaber fights.
    That's why I consider them to be superior in every way to the flashy PT.
    There is so much more going on other than guys swinging lightsabers and jumping around like clowns.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Feb 5, 2013
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  18. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    The Tuskens were afraid to go near Ben's hut.
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  19. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I thought he did have conscious control of it when he broke out of the cell.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I was thinking of the duel with the Coway, when his opponent gets clubbed over the head with a flying rock.
  21. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
  22. Jedipilot25 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2010
    In the Marvel and Classic comics, Luke practices a lot with the training remote and becomes good enough to defeat a Orman Tagge--a trained swordsman--and Kharys, a flying Dark Jedi trained by Vader. It's a pity that Zahn decided to completely ignore the comics, particularly when he wrote Allegiance/Choices of One.
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