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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Luke's image in Vader's mask...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Leia73, May 5, 2017.

  1. Leia73

    Leia73 Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Just curious as to how you interpret the ESB scene when Luke is on Dagobah and strikes down the vision of Vader only to see his own image in Vader's mask? I have always interpreted it's meaning as Luke's confrontation (part of his training session perhaps) with the very real possibility that he could be seduced by the dark side..Also, why did Yoda tell him he didn't need his weapon as he entered? What would Luke have done without his saber in that situation?
     
  2. Darthman92

    Darthman92 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Yoda told Luke he'd only find in the cave what he brought in their with him. Not only did he bring his weapon out of fear but was also the aggressor that caused the spar because he ignited his lightsaber first and in his anger sliced off "Vader's" head right when the opportunity was open. Basically in that moment he failed to keep at bay the emotions that lead one on the path towards the Dark Side and that's why it ended with him seeing himself in Vader's place. The idea seems to be that hallucination wouldn't have happened or been really different if he had not done all that. We don't really know for sure what would have happened in there had he listed to Yoda's counsel.
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    It was a metaphor, and foreshadowing.
     
  4. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2013
    A rather simple interpretation is the mask foreshadowing the fact that Vader is Luke's father. Thus, Luke carries a part of Vader in him. The opposite is also true.
     
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  5. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    I still my remember my reaction the first time seeing it when I was a kid and actually thinking that was Vader until it was revealed that it wasn't.
     
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  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002

    ..or that Luke risks becoming Vader if he attacks in anger/fear...which is why he finally throws down his lightsaber in ROTJ.
     
  7. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    That's my interpretation.
     
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  8. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Exactly.
     
  9. En Sabah Nur

    En Sabah Nur Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2017
    The scene in ROTJ where Luke sees Vader's cybernetics and then looks at his own cybernetic hand,the realisation of the vision was even more vivid for me as a viewer of Luke's journey.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    "He's still weak. He's gotta be strengthened. And Yoda's the one to do it. That's his job. Now, he has to go and explore a cave, because he's in training and this is what Yoda tells him to go. And there's a seriousness to Yoda's face here because he knows what's going to happen because actually he's setting it up, what's going to happen in the cave, because Luke is going to have to face himself. "

    --Irvin Kershner, TESB Commentary.

    "Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.


     
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  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    TO - MAKE - YOU - THINK!!!!!! ;)



    It seems a bit odd that Lucas might consider it a "problem" that Luke would take his saber with him if Anakin was chastised for being careless about keeping it in his possession. "This weapon is your life,etc."
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Not really, because they're different things. When Luke goes into the cave, he is going in with negative emotions. Luke is confronting himself when he goes into the cave and sees what will happen if he lets his fear, anger and hate fester in his heart. When Yoda went in the dark side valley, he was confronted by his darker self because he had indulged himself in war for almost three years and because of the hubris in his soul, this happened.

    [​IMG]

    The vision was based on his feelings and his arrogance.

    When Obi-wan tells Anakin that his Lightsaber is his life, he's referring to how when a Jedi is in battle, it is often the Lightsaber that makes all the difference. That's why we see Anakin having to surrender when his saber is destroyed and how Anakin and Obi-wan have to struggle in the arena. Especially with Obi-wan who goes from being on the defensive with the Acklay with the spear and then with a Lightsaber, he goes on the offensive. Same with Luke needing a Lightsaber to deal with the Wampa and then having to use a bone and a skull to survive the Rancor. In those scenes, they're not dealing with themselves.

    But it should be noted that in ROTJ, Luke struggles with himself and his Lightsaber is part of it. That's why when he takes it up...

    [​IMG]

    ...he's in danger of turning to the dark side. But when he shuts it down and does this...

    [​IMG]

    ...he is willing to give up his life, rather than turn to the dark side. Context is everything.
     
  13. MotherNature's SilverSeed

    MotherNature's SilverSeed Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2013
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    First of all, the cave was just a test to show that how one uses ones abilities, either through Force use or with a lightsaber, can determine ones fate. Secondly, Ben's point still stands.....Luke's lightsaber was his life, which Luke chose to sacrifice when he threw it away. Had he continued to use it, he would have fallen to the Dark Side, exactly as Palpatine had intended.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    The issue raised by Yoda, and confirmed by Lucas. explicitly, was Luke taking his weapon with him.

    Unless in an alternate scenario, Luke would have heeded Yoda's advice, but then Yoda explains "I said you won't need them. Not don't take them. You need to take them or you won't learn how not to need to use them. In spite of what I said initially. "
     
  16. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002

    The point of the cave was to teach Luke that HOW one uses one's Force powers and lightsaber are important.

    LUKE
    But how am I to know the good side
    from the bad?

    YODA
    You will know. When you are calm,
    at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and
    defense, never for attack.
    -------------------------------------------
    LUKE
    But I can help them! I feel
    the Force!

    BEN
    But you cannot control it. This
    is a dangerous time for you,
    when you will be tempted by the
    dark side of the Force.

    YODA
    Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen.
    The cave. Remember your failure

    at the cave!
    ----------------------------------------------

    YODA
    Stopped they must be. On this
    all depends. Only a fully trained
    Jedi Knight with the Force as his
    ally will conquer Vader and his
    Emperor. If you end your training
    now, if you choose the quick and
    easy path, as Vader did, you will
    become an agent of evil.

    BEN
    Patience.

    LUKE
    And sacrifice Han and Leia?

    YODA
    If you honor what they fight for
    ... yes!
    What Luke should not do is become over-reliant on using his abilities to solve every problem, as the Sith do. He needs to find a solution that allows the Will of the Force to suceed.LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

    Luke's failure in the cave was attacking out of fear and anger. Luke finally realized that his attack on Vader was doing exactly this, and that Palpatine's plan was to force Luke into a position where he felt it was necessary to attack an "unarmed" Palpatine in order to save himself and his friends. In ROTJ, Luke and Palpatine spell it out:

    LUKE
    Your overconfidence is your weakness.

    EMPEROR

    Your faith in your friends is yours.
    Palpatine's overconfidence in his plans was his weakness, and Luke's faith in his friends ended up becoming his strength instead. While Luke's faith was in the Rebel fleet at this time, what he did not know was that his actions would eventually turn Anakin back to the Light, but his faith in the Force eventually allowed the Prophecy to succeed.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Lucas has stated that the problem is Luke wanting to take his weapons with him, against Yoda's advice.

    We can all have our own notions and interpretation. I don't mean to impune yours but in relation to what Lucas has said about what Yoda is saying and Luke is doing, the reaction that Obi Wan has to Anakin letting his weapon out of his grip.

    So they are odd. Which is fine. Yoda could be mindful of his history with saber combat where his proficiency did not bring the galaxy back from the brink of darkness. Obi Wan's carelessness with his saber on Utapau is not just a call back but a bit neat bit of irony too.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Again, context is everything. The problem isn't Luke using a Lightsaber. The problem is Luke is going into an emotionally charged situation and is armed to the teeth, which results in his seeing what will happen if he fights using the dark side. It is far different from Jedi using Lightsabers to defend themselves in a combative situation. It isn't about having different notions of what the scene is about. The point is that you don't understand what the difference is because you ignore context.
     
  19. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    I'd be interested in seeing what Lucas quote you are referring to:

    YODA
    That place... is strong with the
    dark side of the Force. A domain
    of evil it is. In you must go.

    LUKE
    What's in there?

    YODA
    Only what you take with you.

    Luke looks warily between the tree and Yoda. He starts to strap on his weapon
    belt.

    YODA
    Your weapons... you will not
    need them.

    "Only what you take with you"
    doesn't simply refer to Luke's weapons....it also refers to Luke's fears and angers. This is what the Dark Side feeds off of, not lightsabers.

    YODA
    Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
    flows from the Force. But beware
    of the dark side. Anger... fear...
    aggression. The dark side of
    the Force are they.
    Easily they flow, quick to join
    you in a fight.

    Luke has to face his own fears in the cave, and anything he brings can accentuate those fears. Taking in his weapons means he's already giving in to his fears, and expecting a fight, despite the fact that Yoda's sitting idly by just a few feet away. Luke has to learn to change his mindset at the beginning of a challenge, in order to find a successful solution to the challenge. He demonstrates that he learned this lesson in ROTJ when he surrendered to Vader (and subsequently to Palpatine), rather than going in fighting:

    EMPEROR
    Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your
    father's. By now you must know your father
    can never be turned from the dark side. So
    will it be with you.

    LUKE
    You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead...and you
    with me.

    The Emperor laughs.

    EMPEROR
    Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of
    your Rebel fleet.

    Luke looks up sharply.

    EMPEROR
    Yes...I assure you we are quite safe from
    your friends here.

    What Luke didn't realize was that he was already trapped in Palpatine's plan...and his fears slowly start taking over to the point where he did take up his lightsaber to fight, because he could see no other solution - exactly as Palpatine intended. His reflexive instincts were to fight, but his Jedi training kept telling him this is what Palpatine wanted all along.

    The lightsaber is a key part of the lesson and the conflict, but it is not big picture. Overcoming one's fears and having faith in the Force is the ultimate goal. Throwing away his lightsaber despite the obvious danger to himself and the Rebel fleet demonstrates that Luke finally understands this.

    QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

    ANAKIN : They do??


    QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    LUKE
    But how am I to know the good side
    from the bad?

    YODA
    You will know. When you are calm,
    at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and
    defense, never for attack.

    Keep in mind that Ben 1) never told Luke about Palpatine's lightning, nor that 2) lightning could be blocked by lightsabers, two things that AOTC shows us Ben knows quite well. Had Luke known this, he would likely never have been put in a situation where Anakin would have sacrificed himself to save Luke and take out Palpatine, which was the goal all along.
     
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  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    He's referring to the DVD commentary, but is ignoring the context.
     
  21. Nibelung

    Nibelung Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Apr 18, 2017
    I always took it as read that Luke's Force visions would be determined by his state of mind upon entering the cave. He took his weapons in, anticipating a fight, and he got a fight -- only to learn that a similar bellicose nature was part of what led Obi-Wan's apprentice to become Darth Vader.
     
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  22. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    At the end of the day Luke was trusting in his own efforts, not the will of the Force.
     
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  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Actually. The context is Luke sensing the darkside due to being calm, at peace, as Yoda had just instructed. This was Yoda's explicit immediately prior. So Luke has passed the milestone of distinguishing the darkside from the good, in the conditions of peace and calm Yoda has just prescribed.

    The issue is Luke not heeding Yoda's advice about not needing weapons. I don't know how being confronted by Darth Vader, the evil lord who killed Ben doesn't merit needing a weapon for self defence as you described it. There's no problem as long as Luke remembers not to use the force in attack. He of course needs to learn that lesson (several times) by experience. But if Luke can't be trusted with a saber how is he ever supposed to learn that lesson?

    Beginning to sound like a catch 22 now.

    Then so is Lucas. The problem is that you are anxious to make everything that Lucas says an absolute truth, and ignoring the irony. Intentional or unintentional.
     
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  24. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    And yet, his act allowed the Force prophecy to be fulfilled, whether he knew it or not.

    The problem is, you keep separating Force use from lightsaber use. Luke needs to learn how to use both in a manner that suits the Will of the Force. Luke was not supposed to kill Palpatine - that's Anakin's destiny. Palpatine wants Luke to attack him in anger - whether it be Force use or with a lightsaber. That is the path to the Dark Side.
     
  25. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're making. The fact that Luke takes his weapons with him, doesn't necessitate his actually using them. And Jedi have been taught over and over to keep their Saber with them at all times.

    But....Yoda gave Luke explicit instructions on how to deal with this task. Dealing with the Dark Side has more to do with mental preparation, than warfare. That was the specific lesson being taught, and Luke didn't glean the meaning of it at the time.
     
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