CT Luke's Intentions in ROTJ

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by LordGarthNader, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. LordGarthNader Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
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    Saw this being discussed on Twitter and thought I would get some of your thoughts...
    Someone posted that "I feel like people overlook the fact that Luke went to the Death Star II fully aware & ready to not leave that place alive." His overriding desire was to get Vader to turn back. Was he just trying to give the Rebels the time and chance to win? Thanks in advance...
  2. JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master

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    May 16, 2013
    star 1
    "You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

    Luke wasn't anticipating surviving his trip to the Death Star. He fully expected the Rebels to destroy it with him, Vader and Palpatine inside.
  3. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

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    Mar 31, 2008
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    Agreed on both - but all with a twist of fate. Read James Kahn's ROTJ novelisation for more indepth detail.
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  4. IBYM Jedi Master

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    Feb 17, 2014
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    He also tells Leia that she'll be the only hope for the alliance if something happens to him. This combined with the other quotes probably implies that he thinks he won't be back.
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  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Luke's first plan was to confront his father and try to get him to turn back. Hence the conversation between them and Luke even calling him, "Father" which shows that he is accepting the truth and the truth of what was before. When that failed, Luke had intended to hold out long enough for the Alliance to do its job. When that backfired, that's when Luke was left to improvise on his own. He didn't have a plan other than to not kill his father.
  6. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    Jan 5, 2011
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    I'm not sure what difference Luke's presence on the Death Star makes to the battle. I'm not sure how he's "giving the Rebels time and a chance to win". Other than that, I think Luke thinks it's probably a suicide mission, and I think the movie makes that clear. I don't think many overlook it.

    Maybe Luke taking Vader away from Endor gives the rebels a better chance at blowing the shield, maybe Luke's absence hurts their chances. If Luke doesn't go to Vader, but Vader goes stomping after him, maybe he wipes out the strike team. Or, maybe he sorta wants Luke to succeed and lets him.

    If Luke wasn't on the Death Star, it's not like Palpatine or Vader would do anything except sit and watch the battle play out. I don't think Luke is distracting them from having an impact on the battle.

    I've heard that Palpatine had Battle Meditation going. Not buying it.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Mar 3, 2014
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  7. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 5, 2012
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    Luke ultimately set out to prove his resistance to the Dark Side and to reclaim his father. It's actually a pretty selfless action; he knew everyone there would die, but he wanted to redeem his father first before sacrificing himself.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6

    The first hint at Palpatine's death having a big influence on the Fleet at Endor was in the RotJ novel:

    Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruiserssmelling fear in the enemymerely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.
    For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected - this was simply where it led.
    Confusion.
    Desperation.
    Damp fear.

    with Heir to the Empire having Thrawn say that Palpatine was doing something to enhance his armies.

    Though it was eventually the force-using Grand Admiral Declann who was made to be the person doing Battle Meditation at Endor.
  9. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 7, 2012
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    Well, destroying the Emperor would be nothing less than a catastrophe for the Empire, as its mechanizations are ultimately not the result of teamwork, community, free enterprising or democracy, but the schemes of a single despot-mastermind. His death might not have had any direct influence on the two separate battles that were currently in play -- at least not long enough to prevent the Rebels involved from being killed -- but by that point I think for both Luke and the Alliance it was a final, all-or-nothing strike against the Empire as a whole. Even if the battles in question were lost, in Luke’s mind, the hope of Leia surviving would be a major advantage in the greater war against a now leaderless (Sithless) Empire.
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  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    At best, if Palpatine and Vader tried to escape, Luke would attempt to prevent them from doing so.
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  11. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 10, 2012
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    He expected to die for the greater good of the Galaxy. It's why I view him as a true hero (and much more of a hero in those moments than of his father fighting in the Clone Wars for years, etc.).
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  12. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Jan 3, 2013
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    Personally, I actually like that whether Luke succeeds or fails is largely irrelevant to the overall battle. By this point in the saga, there's been a definite split between the personal conflict between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor, and the broader Rebels vs Empire conflict. Some people have criticized that - it's definitely a shift from ANH - but I think it works.
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  13. RyanForder Jedi Master

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    Mar 3, 2014
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    He was going to destroy the Sith, He was not considered a Jedi Knight at this point and this was his final task given by Yoda on his death bed and then Luke would be a Jedi. He had no need to be on Endor with the rebels or in Space with Lando.

    Luke was prepared to die to become a Jedi and try to turn his Father back in doing so.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    You really think that Anakin wasn't willing to die for the greater good of the galaxy, during the Clone Wars? Considering all the things that he did during the conflict.
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  15. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 10, 2012
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    No, I do not to be honest. Not the way his character was portrayed. I never got the sense Anakin was really willing to ever sacrifice himself for the Galaxy. He seemed to preoccupied with himself and his own needs. For example, him wanting to go back for Padme instead of completing his mission. Or, him wanting to go back for one clone trooper instead of staying beside Obi-Wan when attacking the command ship. Like I said, the way he was presented. I see Luke as being someone who was ready to self sacrifice and not power hungry. Anakin was too power hungry and attached to Padme to be selfless. It's why he was easy to sway by Palpatine.
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    I don't think Anakin really ever expected to die during the Clone Wars. He knew he was powerful enough and skilled enough to survive most any deadly situation. And it was true, to an extent, which is why it was so difficult for Obi-Wan to sway him from his arrogance. It's pretty hard to take seriously the advice of someone you consistently out-perform in pretty much every area, even if that someone is right.

    Anakin was never willing to sacrifice himself physically because, as far as he was concerned, allowing himself to be killed would ultimately just doom his loved ones further down the line. The only things Anakin was willing to sacrifice for his loved ones and for the galaxy at large were his ideals. He was a control freak. In his mind, if he wasn't around, everything would fall apart. And even if his loved ones were able to survive and prosper on their own, it wouldn't matter, because he would be dead. He would have lost them anyway, being separated from them by death, which is the end of everything we cherish.

    It wasn't until Episode VI that Anakin learned the meaning of selfless attachment as opposed to selfish attachment, giving his life so that his son could live. And in the process he learned that death wasn't actually the end, and that because of his selflessness he would be allowed to see his son again in the afterlife.

    Not believing in an afterlife myself, I'm not sure how I feel about that last part. A part of me thinks it undermines the lesson he learned; because can a sacrifice truly be selfless if you're rewarded with eternal life in exchange? True, Anakin probably didn't know he'd get a reward, but does that mean that had he known, he wouldn't have gotten it? It raises a lot of questions.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Mar 6, 2014
  17. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

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    I always interpreted it to mean that one way or another, none of them would be getting out of the battle alive. If he failed to turn Vader back to good, he'd find a way to stop both of them from escaping the Death Star.

    Though it begs the question: how did he think he'd hold the Emperor back? As we clearly see, all Palpatine would have to do is electrocute Luke, and the latter would be completely powerless to stop it.
    Last edited by DARTHLINK, Mar 6, 2014
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  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Really, when you think about though, up until when Luke tosses down his saber, he's still thinking more about himself than the greater good. Afterall, Luke was willing to let the Alliance destroy the Death Star, because he wasn't ready to sacrifice himself to stop Vader. Or sacrifice his own father to stop the Sith.
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  19. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
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    Luke wasn't suicidal by any means. He was basically stalling for time.
  20. SarlacsDinerParty Jedi Knight

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    Mar 2, 2014
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    Always had the impression that he was gonna try and turn Vader back again. Him dying while the fleet destroyed the Death star was just the risk.
  21. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

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    Mar 13, 2009
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    Yes. they added that in to make Palpatine seem capable of multitasking and omnipotent.
  22. DanielUK Force Ghost

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    Nov 1, 2012
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    Luke knew his destiny was the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan and Yoda thought it was impossible to return to the Light.
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    It's not clear if Yoda believed that. While you'd think he might have been more clear about it, it is notable that never at any point does Yoda tell Luke he must kill Vader. Confront, yes, but never kill. And the lesson he taught Luke by sending him into the cave was one of non-violence; Luke took his weapons with him and as a resulted ended up only fighting himself. This is the same lesson Yoda learned years earlier while dueling the Emperor.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Except in TESB, Yoda says, "Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor."
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  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    And when Luke says "I can't kill my own father" Obi-Wan's response is "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

    When talking to Vader in TESB, the Emperor warns "He could destroy us".

    Regarding the cave - I figure the problem wasn't that Luke took in a weapon - but that he went on the offensive: "Anger, fear, aggression - the dark side are they"

    Being a Jedi is not a non-violent job.