Luke's Plan

Many things happend which Luke did not expect. The point is he planned to throw the saber to the floor making himself helpless. What happend before does not matter. Luke knew he would face Palpatine. He knew Palpatine would be powerful. Luke also knew that if he was on the verge of death then his father would save him.

I like the idea that Luke was planting seeds in Vader's mind. Luke did a guilt trip on their stroll down memory lane. Luke knew he would see the Emperor but he made Vader/Anakin guilty about it anyway.

seldon

 

"The point is he planned to throw the saber to the floor making himself helpless. What happend before does not matter. Luke knew he would face Palpatine. He knew Palpatine would be powerful. Luke also knew that if he was on the verge of death then his father would save him."

Luke - "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

Luke went expecting to stall Vader and Palps until the Rebellion could destroy the DS.

 

Exactly MeBeJedi

 

I don't think so, MeBe, stall them from what, exactly?

They had nothing to do with the course of that battle. Nor were they going to at any point. It's not like Luke's coming to talk to them stopped them from firing the Death Star or anything.

Had he not came, in all likelihood, they still probably would've just sat back in the throne room, meeting or talking or whatever.

So how exactly did Luke stall them? And what did he stall them from doing?

Or, as our friends around these boards like to say PPOR

 

EMPEROR: Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you.

LUKE: You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead...and you with me.

The Emperor laughs.

EMPEROR: Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet.

Luke looks up sharply.

EMPEROR: Yes...I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here.

Vader looks at Luke.

LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness.

EMPEROR: Your faith in your friends is yours.
VADER: It is pointless to resist, my son.

The Emperor turns to face Luke.

EMPEROR (angry): Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. (indicates Endor) Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon...

Luke reacts. The Emperor notes it.

EMPEROR (cont) ...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet! It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them.

Luke's look darts from the Emperor to Vader and, finally, to the sword in the Emperor's hand.

EMPEROR: Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
- ROTJ screenplay

---

[i][b]Palpatine looked at Endor, then back at the lightsaber in his hand. "Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's." He faced Luke directly. "By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you."

"Never. Soon I will die, and you with me." Luke was confident of that now. He allowed himself the luxury of a boast.

The Emperor laughed, a vile laugh. "Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet." Luke had a thick, reeling moment, then steadied himself. The Emperor went on. "I assure you, we are quite safe from your friends here."

Vader walked toward the Emperor, stood at his side, looking at Luke.

Luke felt increasingly raw. "Your overconfidence is your weakness," he challenged them.

"Your faith in your friends is yours." The Emperor began smiling; but then his mouth turned down, his voice grew angry. "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon-they're walking into a trap. And so is your Rebel fleet!"

Luke's face twitched visibly. The Emperor saw this, and really began to foam. "It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band-an entire legion of my troops awaits them there.

Luke's eyes darted from the Emperor, to Vader, and finally to the lightsaber in the Emperor's hand. His mind quivered with alternatives; suddenly everything was out of control again. He could count on nothing but himself. And on himself, his hold was tenuous.

The Emperor kept rattling on imperiously. "I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your fleet arrives. And that is only the beginning of my surprise-but of course I don't wish to spoil it for you."

The situation was degenerating fast, from Luke's perspective. Defeat after defeat was being piled on his head. How much could he take? And now another surprise coming? There seemed to be no end to the rank deeds Palpatine could carry out against the galaxy. Slowly, infinitesimally, Luke raised his hand in the direction of the lightsaber.

The Emperor continued. "From here, young Skywalker, you will witness the final destruction of the Alliance-and the end of your insignificant rebellion."

Luke was in torment. He raised his hand further. He realized both Palpatine and Vader were watching him. He lowered his hand, lowered his level of anger, tried to restore his previous calm, to find his center to see what it was he needed to do.

The Emperor smiled, a thin dry smile. He offered the lightsaber to Luke. "You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you, now. Very good, take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in yo

 

Hey, that's you, MeBe! I didn't recognize you at first--good to debate again.

Now to the task at hand.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, but you didn't address my central point until the last paragraph of your post.

That is, I know what happens at the end of ROTJ.

But I'm just not convinced that Luke was stalling them in any manner. After all, they showed no signs of leaving before he arrived--especially considering the fact that Palpatine had set everything up as part of a trap for the Alliance. And further, had they decided to leave once Luke arrived, what was to keep them from simply incapacitating him and then hauling him onto a shuttle along with them?

So given that Palpatine didn't show any desire to escape, and that they were not active participants in the battle, what exactly was Luke stalling them from doing? Because I really don't see anything.

 

Hmm, I thought I had posted in this one.

Anyways, I don't think Skywalker really had a plan when he went to Vader in ROTJ. If anything, it was to reduce the risk of the Special Ops team being discovered. By going to Vader it certainly did distract both Vader and the Emperor from the strike team. It possibly even assured their success, as the Emperor was preoccupied with turning Skywalker that he possibly ignored any hails from the shield generator defense force.

 

"I didn't recognize you at first--good to debate again."

I can't believe I left so little an impression on you...

"After all, they showed no signs of leaving before he arrived--especially considering the fact that Palpatine had set everything up as part of a trap for the Alliance. And further, had they decided to leave once Luke arrived, what was to keep them from simply incapacitating him and then hauling him onto a shuttle along with them? "

---

" So given that Palpatine didn't show any desire to escape, and that they were not active participants in the battle, what exactly was Luke stalling them from doing? Because I really don't see anything."[/i]

You are confusing two different perspectives.
[ul][li]Luke [u]didn't know[/u] prior that Palps was aware of the Rebellion's plan. It's not until [i]after[/i] this knowledge of the trap is made clear to Luke that he starts to worry, because everything was predicated on surprising Palps. In fact, Palps created this entire scenario not only to destroy the Rebellion in one fell swoop, [i]but also to force Luke into doing the very thing he made clear he would not do - [b]use the Dark Side to destroy the Emperor, in a vain attempt to save the Rebellion![/b][/i][/li]

[li]Palps [i]did[/i] know of the Rebellion's intent and upcoming attack, and planned appropriately (or so he thought.) As far as he was concerned, there was [i]no need[/i] to even consider evacuating, [i]a la[/i] Tarkin in ANH. His overconfidence [i]was[/i] his weakness. ;)[/li][/ul]
[i]"If anything, it was to reduce the risk of the Special Ops team being discovered. By going to Vader it certainly did distract both Vader and the Emperor from the strike team. It possibly even assured their success, as the Emperor was preoccupied with turning Skywalker that he possibly ignored any hails from the shield generator defense force."[/i]

Agreed...[blockquote][i][b]Luke: "I'm endangering the mission. I shouldn't have come."[/i][/b][/blockquote]If Luke [i]had[/i] planned something ahead of time, he clearly knew that his cover was blown even before getting to Endor.

Fact is, though, the only thing really running through his mind was confronting Vader. This was told to him by Ben (for one intent), and he repeated this to Leia (though with a different intent.) This was pretty much the extent of his "plan"..

 

Point well made.

But I maintain that it doesn't even make sense for Luke to try and stall Palpatine and the Emperor, even if he didn't know it was all a trap.

After all, what would possess him to think that they would be doing something to stall. And knowing how forfeit he was making his life by going, he had to realize how little of an impact he would have on them. If he thought his chances for survival were slim, how could he at the same time think that he would be able to hold Vader and the Emperor there if either wanted to leave?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Ultimately, though, I agree he just went to confront his father, without having a clear idea of how, or what that meant.

 

"Point well made."

Have I ever let you down?

"If he thought his chances for survival were slim, how could he at the same time think that he would be able to hold Vader and the Emperor there if either wanted to leave?"

Well, as you stated after that...Luke really hadn't thunk it out ahead of time anyways. Clearly, no one (Yoda, Ben, Leia, even Vader!) believed his intent was reasonable to begin with. I think it's safe to say he really didn't have very realistic expectations to begin with - his admission to Leia practically screams at his own awareness of this situation.

"Ultimately, though, I agree he just went to confront his father, without having a clear idea of how, or what that meant."

Agreed. He's just following the "Will of the Force"...

...just like in ESB.

(Sorry, couldn't pass that one up. )

 

I agree that Luke did have a plan, it just didn't turn out the way he thought it would. He turned himself in, confident that Vader wouldn't take him to the Emperor- and he did. The plan went downhill from there, but went up at the last second and succeeded at the end.


By the way, where did you get that book quote from?

 

That's an equally valid perspective as well.

 

The ROTJ novelization.

And I'm actually quite stunned. How resiliant we must have become in these last few months to resist the urge to dive off into some marginally related tangent?

And I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed I didn't get to see that huge laughing face that fills three-quarters of the screen. Those are always helpful in the debates.

 

[image=http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/images/smilies/laugh.gif]

"By the way, where did you get that book quote from?"

Novelizations on the 'Net