Lumiya & Jacen & visions (betrayal spoilers)

the reason Im sort of changing my tone on Jacen is because of alil hint AA game in the live chat...I asked if the dark energies could have altered Jacens visions and he replied that they couldnt but Lumiya "might" have....this shows me that she in fact did and I now think differently about Jacen..I think that Lumiya is manipulating Jacen just like Palps did to Anakin, meaning she will say anything to lure him in...for example all the Veregre crap and comparing the real sith to the "corrupt sith"...thats all crap........I think she isnt quite what she appears and is a full Dark Lady of the Sith.....and just as twisted as Palps or Vader

she is altering Jacen's visions....I just reread this one passage.....the one where she says dont bring Ben down here cause someone will die....and then later she completely volunteers to leave....as Jacen sees the future he sees someone dying, then later he sees the Luke visions that force him to kill her (nelina)....that is 100% manipulation in my opinion and alteration...Jacen should have realized this considering she controlled all of the phantoms....looking back at RotS...palps had some dang good arguments too.....I dont think Jacen was necessarily in the wrong cause he did see that....but he should have been open to the fact that Lumiya could have twisted them....

 

its evry unlikely that she is altering Jacen's visions, for the simple reason that Jacen has the best grasp of the future of all the characters. His ai-ting training and well documented past/future abilties as well as the several tiems in the book where his visions turned out to be correct show that there is little chance his visions could be tampered ith without notice.

Furthermore, the fact that dark force nexus's provide in general accurate visions, see mara jade and luke on the sand barge, the vision of luke cutting down vader and becoming him, even traya's visions in the final moments in the trayas core.

Finally, they weren't realy visions they where explorations of a timestream.

 

Of course she is. She's Sith. She's a manipulator. Read her POV at the end. What I'm interested in is whether or not Vectivus existed, and if he did have the self-control Lumiya attributes to him.

 

IMO Vectivus existed, but Lumiya's using him the way Palps used his Darth Plaquise(sp?) on Anakin.

And, yeah, she altered Jacen's visions. Lied about Vergere too.

 

She may not have completely lied, but def. stretched the truth...AA said Vergere had some "sith lore" but may not have been sith

 

While altering Jacen's visions would be difficult, it's possible, especially since he has an arrogance when it comes to what he sees. He'll believe it, because the alternative to believing that what he sees in the future is a not a manipulation (or that he's being guided towards seeing only certain possibilities and thinking that it's everything) is to admit that his sense of the future could be in error.

This would work against him. Luke's doubts in DN3 enabled Lomi Plo to be hidden from his view; in Jacen's case it's the opposite; too little doubt. It's blinding him to the fact that people could be messing with his head and that his visions are perhaps not absolute.

 

AA also said that Jacen's arrogance is his biggest weakness right now in the chat..

 

Couldn't it be that Jacen is a psychopath? He killed Nelani to cover up his actions. The "visions" are his way of rationalizing it as okay, just like his "vision" in TUQ. Also, couldn't what he saw have been him killing Luke if he let Nelani live, because it would be one more person he'd have to hide his evil from?

 

Whatever he is, a psychopath he is not, he is still in contact with his emotions and knows that things that he does aren't right but must be done. That bars clinical psychosis right out.

HOwever there is a chance that he is possibly mad, the visions could be a manifestation of Schitzophrenia, some real some constructed, but in that case, its just him being chemically and mentally wrong. Which is uninteresting.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if she is manipulating things to get Jacen in a more favorable position to turn. However, that doesn't change the fact he still went along with it and seems quite willing to do so. Jacen has fallen, manipulation or not.

 

But then what changes him from all the other people manipulated in good faith by the sith? Hmmmm I guess that means we all need to run out an lynch Jar Jar Binks(not for fun and profit) for giving chancellor palpatine all that power. Does dark action with good intention make a fall? Nope. Anakins fall started when he lost control and killed everyone in the tusken camp out of vengeance. His killing of Dooku, rage based vengeance. His attack on windu, a misguided action. His slaughter at the temple, now it would take a blind man to see that whatever threat the Jedi order was the young weren't.

 

I wonder if all of Jacens visions of the galaxy sliding into chaos are connected. We have one in the NJO, which he seems to solve. Next the Dark Nest crisis prompts another vision of an endless war, which he also resolves. Now we have him with a vision of an endless war caused by his failure to kill Thracken. What if they are all visions of the same future? He keeps trying to prevent it, but his actions only shift the future a little, and some other event occurs to return the galaxy to the path of unending war. What if that future is inevitable, a nexus point in time? nothing Jacen or anyone can do will prevent it, because it is a critical event. The galaxy must reach this future in order to continue. Perhaps we will see this in Legacy, with the galaxy fragmented and in chaos.

 

He keeps putting it off but can never remove the eventuality of war? Very interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing that angle explored.

 

Hopefully all will be revealed, to some extent, when Legacy is released in a week or two.

If the Galactic Alliance is gone and the Empire has returned we can assume Jacen is a complete fool. If the new Empire is the result of the Imperial Remnant seceding from the GA then it probably means LOTF has a happy ending. Either way I imagine we'll learn something about Jacen's impact on the galaxy through knowing a little more about why Cade is ashamed to call himself a Skywalker.

One evil Sith Lord in the family you can put down to bad luck; two and people probably want you burned at the stake.

 

What if that Empire is a complete Galactic Empire that encompasses all of what the GFFA was, BUT follows the ideals of Pellaeon, not Palpatine? Would that be a "happy ending?"

 

Jacens overconfidence is his weakness. Palps thought he knew how the future was gonna turn out too.

 

Wow, i like this one. Supports the idea that Jacen really can never understand what he thinks he already knows better than everyone else. Hes gonna be in so much trouble when he gets home.

 

It's interesting when you really consider just how much nine books could cover. The films were only six and they form a complete saga alone, sure there are holes that need filling up between the films, but the films alone forge the core era of the Star Wars galaxy.

I'm actually starting to wonder if that's why Betrayal was so fast-paced. I think we're all so used to the NJO and Clone Wars that we're used to seeing each book just a few weeks or months after the last and every single event and battle covered in extensive detail. For example, the infiltration of Centerpoint would probably have taken up a whole book the way the NJO was written, yet it wasn't even half of Betrayal. It will be interesting to see if LOTF tries to emulate the films more by having each book a little further apart or perhaps even having a gap of a few years in the middle. Exile could quite easily be "and this is what Jacen did while he was booted out of the Jedi Order for a couple of years" and then Sacrifice "and here's Jacen returning to the galaxy to find things have only escalated into all out war while he was away".

I almost fully expect they will just keep things the same as the NJO and CW and progress slowly but it'd be interesting if they spaced it out a bit like the Original Trilogy with a year or two in between the books here and there, i.e. rather than covering every battle of what could well evolve into the second separatist movement jump a years forward to a time when the Galactic Alliance has started to crumble and dozens of worlds have followed Corellia's example in light of the central governments Tarkin-esque response and seceded from the GA.

Nine books is a lot of time really... so the galaxy fragmenting (and reforming) in the space of just LOTF is more plausible than it first sounds. I guess in a way the NJO was only five books when you consider you could read and digest the whole of the main plot of the NJO series by reading the five hardbacks. If all nine of the LOTF books are critical to the main ongoing plot then it could prove to be a much more epic era than even the NJO.

 

I think they said it would only cover 3 years.

 

alot can happen in 3 years

 

QFT. See the "Clone Wars", "Fall of the Republic," and "Rise of the Empire" for more details.

 

This fits with some of the rumors surronding the Legacy comics that the Empire of that era is not necessarily a rehash of Palpatines and may not be necessarily a force for evil in the galaxy.

 

From what has been released about Legacy, the galaxy seems to have fragmented. I agree that the Corellian War may be the starting point for the fragmentation.

I can imagine the happy ending not being the galaxy reunifying, but an organized decentralization. Perhaps we will see a Foundation created, something to reduce the damage this break up will cause. I could imagine that after 25,000 years, a central government is slowly going to fall apart. So far it nearly has, but held together, but the Corellian War may be the final straw. Legacy may take place in the Interregnum period, and be about those efforts. But I think that the breakup of the galactic government is inevitable, and Jacen is having visions of it. His actions are either making it worse, or maybe we could argue that the Sith are like the Foundation, and that his actions are carefully calculated to limit the damage, regardless of personal cost.

 

I´m perfectly capable of believing that there will be no logical connection whatsoever between the ending of LotF and the starting point of Legacy. That everything that will change the galaxy from LoTF to Legacy will happen between, unseen.