Lumiya & Jacen & visions (betrayal spoilers)

Kinda like a Simpsons episode

 

Shrimpus: Furthermore, the fact that dark force nexus's provide in general accurate visions, see mara jade and luke on the sand barge, the vision of luke cutting down vader and becoming him, even traya's visions in the final moments in the trayas core.

The first two didn?t even remotely come true (and I don?t know anything about the third).

Visions in Dark Side Nexuses are things that might happen (sometimes not even remotely in a literal sense), but rarely does it ever give the whole story. It presents you with one or a set of possible futures, but the potential for other futures outside the ones seen still exists. The Dark Side clouding a Jedi?s ability to see the future was hammered to us repeatedly during the prequels.

As far as Lumiya lying about Vergere: I wouldn?t know, but if she is, she?s certainly not far off. Vergere?s curious knowledge of the Sith has been established inarguably since the moment her RPG stats came out. She wasn?t a Sith (and incidentally, Lymiya only says she was a candidate), but one can?t argue that Vergere?s teachings don?t exactly cast the Sith in a bad light, and she does have a view of the Force that lends itself to ambiguity on the matter.

YodaKenobi: He killed Nelani to cover up his actions. The "visions" are his way of rationalizing it as okay, just like his "vision" in TUQ.

That would be a good theory, if it weren?t abundantly clear that the visions were the cause of his decision, and not the result of them. The fact that he didn?t want to do those things in the first place should indicate the visions weren?t just an excuse to do it?to say nothing about the fact that he didn?t make these decisions until after he had the visions.

 

JJS -- you're both correct and incorrect in this particular instance.

1) You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT that the images, visions, sequences which play out when the Dark Side Nexus *itself* manifests the visions are glimpses of "what might be" -- something which may or may not come true or something which may have happened, but ultimately nothing concrete and nothing to base assertions on.

2) You are INCORRECT however in saying that a Force-user intentionally undertaking some Farseeing -- even on a Dark Side Nexus -- would have the same result.

The two are apples and oranges, really. Just wanted to give you additional clarification.

 

So you?re saying Jacen?s visions were full representations of the potential futures? You don?t think there might have been other options to saving Luke?s life other than killing Nelani?

So what exactly was Yoda rambling about in the prequels about the DS clouding his ability to see the future?

 

He was old and tired. Into Exile he must go...

It's called "failing a skill check" -- circumstance modifier and all that.

NOW. If you would like to discuss Lumiya manipulating Jacen's visions -- which is eminently possible -- as the author has intimated, that's a good place to start...

 

Could you imagine if she became a Sith and Obi-wan and Anakin had to fight her, what a joke that would have been. It would be Jango vs COleman all over again.


And Jacen is a lot like Palpatine. Neither follow the idea the future is always in motion.

 

dp4m: It's called "failing a skill check" -- circumstance modifier and all that.

Oh come now? You?re not going to convince me that Jacen failed a skill check!?

NOW. If you would like to discuss Lumiya manipulating Jacen's visions -- which is eminently possible -- as the author has intimated, that's a good place to start...

I still like to think Jacen is above manipulation of that sort. Denning basically said so in DN, and I really really really like that idea? Not that it couldn?t have happened, I?d just see it as yet another mischaracterization of his character. Some of the most prominent aspects of the various force using cultures his visited were that of using the Force for misdirection and deception. I?d like to think that?s why he was immune to Raynor, and why he should be immune to Lumiya.

 

That, I can believe. That is a very interesting and great point. He's receieved visions of basically the same thing, and he thinks that the current war is the cause. That's most likely not the case. As he attempts to stop it, he just gets another vision. As if the Force as trying to tell him that this will happen so don't change it. He's trying to constantly change the future (ahem, Anakin Skywalker, anyone?), but the future is inevitable. Hopefully Jacen realizes this before he falls deep.

 

that's actually a very good idea... there is a great war coming, Jacen can't stop it (and may only bring it about by his vigilante actions). but instead of just getting everyone ready in general, he's out trying to stop it all on his own (or by having others follow him in false pretenses as in DN). or perhaps, just as Anakin/Vader had to fall and destroy the OJO to make the survivors learn, Jacen must fall and start this great war to purify the NJO... though the question then becomes does he also get to save the future as Anakin/Vader did in ROTJ, or does that duty fall to Ben, or even Cade??

 

It is a good idea of what's really happening, Jacen's been receiving visions of the great war that will undo the Unifications Wars from 25000 years ago and end galactic government, each vision is just a different piece of it. But is he weakening some of the several different upcoming conflicts in it, or is he ultimately responsible for them?

 

I was just thinking exactly that.

Luke himself immediately sees right through Sidious and realizes that his greatest weakness is his overconfidence - presumeably through his own interpretation of visions, and unwillingness to entertain any alternative that he may not particularly care for. Jacen is doing the exact same thing when he uses any of his (post-Traitor) visions as justification for his actions.

"Choose. Then Act."

C'mon people, read between the lines. It still always comes down to POV. Notice how the evil chicken conveniently never mentions anything regarding the context of the situation or the circumstances surrounding a choice itself? It's only that simple if you ignore that which you do not wish to see.

It then becomes very interesting that early in Betrayal Jacen accuses Luke of that same lack of judgement, albeit behind his back.

 

Perhaps Jacen was displacing his shortcomings upon Luke. Not that the Farmboy is infallible, but then again, he learns from his mistakes. We can't quite say the same for Jacen.

 

That's true. Like 1_4_Jedi noted, Jacen slags Luke for dismissing details, yet he's proven wrong just a few chapters later when he and Luke sense the same attack at the same time, but Jacen goes back to sleep while Luke looks for a more subtle warning. "If you look for banthas, you may fail to see the hawkbats." Actually, the book was full of those kinds of juxtapositions, between Jacen's making a mistake and someone else (Luke, Leia, Ben, even the Anakin Solo droid) making the right decision. It's fascinating really, to see how what would in isolation be little (insignificant) mistakes add up to a gigantic speeder pile-on.

 

Jacen made mistakes in early NJO by not knowing who he was and not using the force...now he whether they are good or bad, makes decisions quickly effiently and knows who he is....whether they are mistakes or not completely depends on your point of view

 

Jacen deals in too many absolutes, before he was far too catious and indesivice, while now he is far too arrogent and rash.