PT Mace & Anakin rivalry

Why not? He could still use his force-lightining abilities, right?

 

Because he wasn't prepared for nor counting on it. Hence his genuine panic and subsequent relief when Anakin attacked Mace.

 

He was prepared for Mace's strike - he'd overheard Mace's "I am going to end this once and for all" - so he'd readied himself to fire lightning while Mace and Anakin were arguing.

 

I don't follow your logic. Was he really weakened or not? If he was pretending to be weak, logically, he was still capable of defending himself against Mance's strike.

 

You only have to see Sidious for a split moment crack out a smile of sarcasm as Mace stands before him missing a hand... check-mate... then his 'Power....rrr!!'
Love it!

 

I concur. Qui Gon is right. Mace bested Palpatine. This I thought was an incredible part of the film. Really got you on the edge. It made it so critical that Anakin made the choice to betray the Jedi.

Palpatine was a master planner, but even he couldn't account for Windu beating him in lightsaber contact.

Yes I think that is made clear. Palpatine kills the other Jedi. He is strong in the Force. I think Yoda and Palpatine are more Force users. But Palpatine isn't really one for using a lightsaber. He likes to use his hands haha.

See Mace Windu is a skilled duelist. He clearly holds his own against the dark lord. And then bests him. The fight scene is brilliant and a key pivotal moment in the film. For all Palpatine's brilliance, his master planning, his outwitting of the complacent Jedi Order, and his knowledge of politics, he could not account for this.

Palpatine clearly loses the fight and is genuinely scared, as he retreats from Windu's blade into that corner (after Windu kicks his saber away). I love that line where Windu repeats that he is under arrest.

At this point, it is luck that Anakin turns up right now. Anakin only sees what appears to be a Jedi coup. Palpatine then resists again. And fails. The only reason that Palpatine wins, is because Anakin makes the choice to intervene and rid Windu of his lightsaber. Only then is Palpatine able to overcome the Jedi Master.

Palpatine did not win the Lightsaber battle. However he wins "the war," when Windu is disarmed (who dishanded) by a new ally (Anakin). Failing Anakin's intervention, either Palpatine has to come quietly, or be killed by Windu.

Obviously Palpatine RELISHES the change of events after he is able to successfully get at Windu who has no defence after that.

And his manipulation after the events in that office is as they say history.

Windu had one move to checkmate, but one of his own Knights suddenly killed their own Queen, leaving the protected Jedi King exposed.

 

^^^ This.

Palpatine's fear was all feigned Imo. It seems bizarre to suggest he could be first acting to get Anakin on board, but merely drops the act and is really afraid for one moment only, then instantly gets his confidence back when Anakin intervenes.
Why would he entice Mace to strike in the first place if he was afraid of the outcome.

I think two contexts are being argued here partially because of the production change to the turn.
In the final cut it is clearly all Palpatine, he sets up this moment of getting a respected Jedi Master angry, so in the heat of the moment Mace will attempt something technically against his own code. This forces Anakin's hand.
In the original cut I think Anakin is a little more directly willing to choose Palpatine from the beginning of the scene, and isn't just desperately snapping at the final moment.
How the scene plays out now, Palpatine orchestrating the confrontation makes much more sense if you look at the whole ROTS script.
Note however that in both versions, Anakin's decision ultimately determines who is victorious. Palpatine's life is genuinely in Anakin's hands, but he is megalomanical enough that he put himself at the end of Mace's blade intentionally. The movie makes more logical sense this way.

 

Plus the argument that Anakin's motivation to join Palpatine doesn't change if Mace brings Anakin along is paradoxical in a way;
the version of the scene where Anakin is already there from the start involves Anakin turning previously, and with a different motivation. So putting Anakin in the scene hypothetically is a bit of a conundrum to speculate about.
Is this an Anakin that has already turned, or is it still Anakin after he delivers the news to Mace of Palpatine's true identity.
And why would Lucas go to length in the final cut to have Anakin walk in right when it looks worst for Mace (saber at unarmed Palpatine's throat) if we are to assume this has no bearing on Anakin's ultimate decision?

 

Anakin never delivered the news. Obi-wan finds out that Palpatine is Sidious, then tells Mace who goes to take him down. Anakin, who finds out first, has already chosen to join him as he was told that Palpatine is the one who created him and thus he can save Padme.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204.

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s...he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn’t the part where the emperor gives up, he goes - “You got me! You got me!”. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn’t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think…and it makes the Emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it’s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

That corroborates my point.

 

Yes, I know Anakin didn't deliver the news in the original cut. I was speaking more hypothetically for discussion sake. Appreciate your effort though.

Yeah, originally Padme was still a major factor, but it was also because of a kind of "I am your father" reveal, where Anakin says yes to the offer contrary to Luke's "no" in ESB.
And if I am not mistaken, in this version of the film the Jedi were getting their hands a little dirtier and Anakin was more sincerely opposed to their philosophy and how they were doing things.

How? Mace won the lightsaber fight then Palpatine merely pretends to give up with the lightning.
He needed Anakin's help to catch Mace off-guard but Imo things wouldn't have come to that if Anakin wasn't imminently arriving. If Anakin was there from the start I believe he would have gone peacefully to make himself look better than the Jedi Council, or have had a different plan from the start (in the final film he reveals his identity and patiently waits in his office for Mace and co to inevitably arrive).
This still doesn't indicate that Palpatine was sincerely scared, it was to hook Anakin.

 

He pretends to be too weak. That has nothing to do with the fact that he could die if Anakin had done nothing. And he actually could because a) he wasn't counting on it and b) he couldn't sustain lightning forever (even if in that moment he wasn't all out of it).

Mace beats Palpatine.
Anakin arrives.
Palpatine blasts lightning.
Mace deflects.
The intense use of the dark side starts to deform Palpatine.
Palpatine stops blasting lightning and pretends to be "too weak" and asks Anakin for help.
Mace decides to kill Palpatine.
Palpatine begs.
Anakin argues against Mace.
Palpatine realizes he has hooked Anakin.
Mace decides to kill him anyway and is about to strike.
Palpatine briefly realizes he might die if Anakin doesn't act immediately.
Anakin acts and cuts Mace's hand.
The pretense of being weak ends and Palpatine blasts Mace, killing him.

 

i do feel the way mace treated anakin had an impact of his decision to turn to the dark side

 

Interesting.
We have discussed this topic before, and I think once again we have to agree to disagree on this.
I'm basically in agreeance with you on all moments, except on that Palpatine is genuinely afraid before Mace strikes.
I think Palpatine saw this coming, I don't accept he wasn't counting on Mace doing this. He could die, yes, but he knows Anakin's weakness and has predicted Anakin's intervention. Like @Matty20172018 suggested, there is some similarity in Vader intinctively blocking Luke's attack on The Emperor in ROTJ. I think your description "Palpatine realises he has hooked Anakin" carries on right until Mace is dead.

This has been debated since '05, and Lucas's comments on the subject are perhaps intentionally vague. He wants us to see for ourselves.
But in my opinion, honestly, Palpatine knew Mace would get angry and try to kill him. Why would he let it come to this for no end, he is a master manipulator. In my head I have always envisioned that Palpatine foresaw a conflicted Anakin's presence at the crucial moment, and therefore was confident despite the vulnerable position he was in.

If you follow the script, Palpatine directly states to Mace in their first scene together "But with Count Dooku dead, (Greivous) is the leader of the droid army. And I can assure you the Senate (as puppets of Sidious) will vote to continue the war as long as Greivous is alive."
This to me overtly states that Palpatine wants that exact confrontation with Mace to happen, with Mace arriving to see that he will return emergency powers with Greivous's death. Palpatine even purposely reveals his true identity to Anakin when Anakin informs him Obi-Wan has engaged General Greivous, and makes no move to call for support or flee while Anakin goes to tell Mace the grim news.

I think this scene is heavily trying to emphasise Anakin's perspective.
From the shot Anakin sees as he enters the office (Mace approaching an unarmed Palpatine with his saber at Palpatine's neck).
Mace quite confident in the Sith Lord's failure, with missing context for Anakin that Palpatine attacked first, after an arrest attempt.
Mace's arguably arrogant sarcasm - "You are under arrest, my Lord".
Palpatine's fearful " I was right, the Jedi are taking over!" bringing the audience, and Anakin, back to the opera scene, where Palpatine had hinted the Jedi's true colours will show at the crucial moment.
Palpatine stating "No, you will die!" is a premonition whether you take it as a reference to Anakin's intervention or simply Sidious trying to kill Mace with the lightning.
The camera shows Anakin's reaction to each bit of dialogue at important moments, for example he looks sympathetic to Mace when Mace cries "He is the traitor!" but then glares hatefully at Mace when Palpatine says "I have the power to save the one you love! You must choose!"
There is thunder heard in the background to represent the turmoil in Anakin' soul, and perhaps hinting the force will go out of balance with Anakin's decision.
Mace's "Don't listen to him, Anakin!" is drowned out, hardly heard by Anakin.
"I am going to end this, once and for all." is a very final statement, backing up that Anakin has to choose right now or Mace is "ending" his chance to save Padme.
"He has control of the Senate and the Courts, he is too dangerous to be left alive!" partially backs up Palpatine's claim the Jedi aren't loyal to the (Palpatine controlled) Senate.
The mood and impact of the scene is centered around Anakin's final decision.
"It's not the Jedi way! He must live!" - "Please don't!" - "I need him!" - "Please don't!" - "Noo!"


I can't reconcile Palpatine's feigned "I'm too weak... don't kill me, please." with a man who is actually scared when Mace goes for the kill.
My reading is that he needs to look scared, I don't see evidence this one moment of fear is genuine.
Like I said, he is destructive enough that he will let it get this far because he has foresaw Anakin will save him.

 

Like I previously pointed out, I encourage you all to watch that scene closely and watch for the small cut scenes. Watch as Palpatine gazes at Anakin at various moments. It's body language. It gives the game away for me. He may not have been 100% sure Anakin was going to save him, but he was probably a good 95% sure. His fear probably came in very slightly as Mace went for the final 'kill'. In this moment Palpatine is holding back on further lightning at Mace and waiting for Anakin to make some move. A desperate "I need him" I think was the cue for Sidious to wait for him to make the move.

 

He took a gamble, but what's a gamble to someone to someone that always, always gets his way? Besides, for someone like Palpatine, if he didn't get to take risks, life simply wouldn't be worth living.

 

How much of a gamble did Palpatine really take? Like if Anakin hadn't stopped Mace, could Palpatine just fry Mace with lightening in the blink of an eye before Mace could strike him with his Lightsaber? Was Palpatine powerful enough to catch or deflect a lightsaber blade with his bare hands?

In his duel with Yoda, Palpatine literally throws the senate chambers at him. We don't see a 10th of that power in the Mace Windu duel.

 

Mace is special. Palpatine's dark energy only strengthened him...or something. It's harder to convey on screen, but it's described in the novelization

 

It's not that it's hard to convey on screen. No effort was made to convey it, because that stuff comes from Matthew Stover's take on the character, not anything Lucas would be aware of or care about.

 

I mean conveying that Mace can tangle with Palpatine, and keep up with him(which is what Lucas wanted to convey). Having these two older actors portray superhuman wizards in a lighting fast duel is hard to do on screen(Maybe not so hard nowadays), but some attempts were made, like when Palpatine flies out of his seat.

The novelization uses a lot of symbolic language, which helps illustrate what is happening. Palpatine, whenever as "Sideous" is referred to as "the shadow." It describes the duel from Anakin's POV as being a blur of motion, and that he couldn't see either of them.

It's the same story. The movie takes the screenplay and converts it into an acted out, live-action film. The novelization takes the screenplay, and converts it into prose. Lucas was certainly aware of everything in the novelization.

 

The novelization is someone else's interpretation of the events of the movie and respective characters. Wether Lucas was aware of everything in it or not, it doesn't necessarily reflect his intentions.

 

He wasn't counting on getting kicked in the face, but he was far from defenseless once he loses his weapon. He has a second Lightsaber and other tricks that he could have used to stop Mace. He chooses to play the con game instead.

 

He wasn't defenseless, as in, he could still blast lightning for a bit more time. But he was in mortal danger, and had Anakin not intervened, he would have died.

 

If you take the novelisation into account (which I realise you don't), it pretty much explicitly states Palpatine isn't afraid in this scene, only Anakin is afraid.

But regardless, Palpatine likely saw this confrontation happening even if he didn't know the details.
His initial "I must say you're here sooner than expected." to Mace is meant to be ironic.

 

I never said he was afraid to confront Mace. He was clearly (over)confident about it. That doesn't mean Mace didn't beat him or that he ceased to be in danger at the very end.