PT Mace, Fisto, Tiin and Kolar vs. Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jordan1Kenobi, Oct 13, 2012.

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  1. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    The thing that annoyed me the most and what I never understood in the whole SW saga, was how Darth Sidious managed to take out Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar so easily.
    Sure he was the toughest Sith Lord at the time, but still, managing to take out 3 Jedi Masters on the Jedi High Council within like 10 seconds is a bit confusing, and while fighting Mace Windu at the same time.
    Agen Kolar- He was probably the weakest there, but when he saw Sidious spinning towards him, didn't he think to duck?
    Saesee Tiin- This is the most hard to understand how easily he got taken out considering he wasn't only on the Jedi High Council, but he was a long term member on there, making him one of the 5 toughest Jedi at the time, and he didn't even block Sidious once?
    Kit Fisto- At least he managed to fight Sidious for a little while and block a few of his hits, but he still died too easily.
    Couldn't all 4 of them have just attacked him at once? I mean I don't think he could block 4 lightsabers coming towards him at once. Kit Fisto even said to Saesee Tiin on the way to the Chancellor's office that he would feel more comfortable if Yoda and Plo Koon had come with them as well, can you imagine that, I don't think Sidious would have stood a chance.
    I know Lucas probably did it to show us how strong Sidious actually was, but in reality, do you think he could have beaten all 4 of them?
    I'm not sure about this whole situation, and that's why I'm asking you guys.
    Last edited by Jordan1Kenobi, Oct 13, 2012
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  2. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    Here's something I was just thinking about yesterday in regards to that fight.

    The 4 Jedi are in pretty close proximity to one another when Palpatine attacks. None of them really have any swing distance for their lightsabers. I'd be would be worried about hitting one of the other Masters.

    I could be wrong and maybe it isn't an issue for a trained knight or master(or maybe even a Padawan), but it's just something that just crossed my mind.
    Last edited by CaptainHamYoyo, Oct 13, 2012
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  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Those 3=slower. That's really all there is to it. Sure, they might be the best the Jedi have to offer, but they're gnats to a guy who's literally a living imbalance in the Force, and so powerful literally none of them even had an idea he was evil.

    There's also the close-proximity thing. The Jedi honestly chose pretty poorly when it came to arresting Sidious; I mean, they've been to Palpatine's office plenty of times, and know it's not exactly spacious in there, but, for some reason, decide to crowd four guys into a room not much bigger than my study. Mace'd honestly have been better off alone, with the rest waiting outside to escort Palpatine after the capture, orrr to stave off attempts at outside interference.
  4. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    Actually that's a good point, because we don't really see Windu or Fisto attempting to strike at Sidious when he's over the other side dealing with Tiin and Kolar.
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  5. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    I couldn't agree more with that about Mace taking him on alone, it would have been much more effcient because then Mace could have arrested him while the other 3 stopped Anakin and everything would have been fine.
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  6. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    Even though the office was pretty small, I think they would've stood a better chance if they fanned out from the entryway as they ignited their lightsabers for the arrest.
    Last edited by CaptainHamYoyo, Oct 13, 2012
  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Arrested and/or killed; but yeah. You need your blocking force.

    Edit: They did fan out. It's just that that room is freaking tiny.
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Oct 13, 2012
  8. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    Lol, Sidious planned it all along, he asked for the smallest office in the building! Haha
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  9. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    Huh, I'll have to rewatch it, but I thought they were all still pretty much right in front of the entryway, and could've spread out more into the room, I could be wrong though.

    But yeah, holding 2 or 3 back into the main office would've been a better idea.
    Last edited by CaptainHamYoyo, Oct 13, 2012
  10. Sistros Force Ghost

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    Actually as a sword enthusiast (and Martial art enthusiast) the "had no room to swing" doesn't hold water, because of the blade they were using,

    a broad sword I can see, a blade of pure energy can be used for many purposes, hacking, cutting and even

    stabbing, as Palpatine himself does.

    Experianced sword masters wouldn't position themselves for that kind of restriction anyway.
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  11. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Except that the lightsabre has nearly always been presented as a broadsword type of weapon. All six films and there's not a great deal of thrust & riposte to show; they were originally envisioned (and largely stayed that way) as being heavy and hard to wield. Outside of Dooku and Palpatine, no Jedi or Sith thrusts regularly; it's all overhead cuts and side to side swipes across the saga. Sure, you could use it in all those ways, but it hasn't been presented as being particularly designed for stabbing.

    The Jedi pretty clearly reacted extremely impulsively, and not just in how they positioned themselves in the room. At this point in the film, the ball is in their court. Palpatine has willingly admitted to one of their number that he is a Sith Lord. The Jedi can stand to react largely any way they please-immediately going to confront Palpatine is one of a couple options I can think of.

    -Issue an emergency order to the Jedi in the field, and their clone commanders, that Palpatine is the Sith Lord controlling the Confederacy. Summon, or go to, the Loyalists (Padme's little band of people) with Anakin and have him repeat what he tells Mace. Then go ahead with challenging Palpatine.

    -Recall all Jedi to the Temple immediately as reinforcements. Send the 'posse', or perhaps the Loyalist Committee to make any coup accusations absurd to an extreme, to ask Palpatine to surrender his powers. If he doesn't, fine; you're not falling into his trap of looking the victim of a Jedi coup and therefore having justification to issue Order 66.

    Simply going to arrest the Chancellor without seemingly considering the possible consequences and other options is daft; all four of them entering an extremely close space is just an extension of that. Another thing: The last two Sith Lords Jedi faced didn't so much as flinch at fighting multiple Jedi. Maul didn't, and neither did Dooku, twice no less. There's no reason to think that bringing additional Jedi besides Mace into direct confrontation with Sidious is going to result in him surrendering. Neither of his Apprentices did; why would he, exactly?

    Also, as a space reference:

    [IMG]

    We can see here that they don't have a great deal of room to use. Kit could push another few feet to Mace's right and free up some additional room for maneuver, but that's really about it. Two or even one individuals entering would have been a much better option. Even Mace doesn't particularly want to stay in there when all his compatriots are dead-he gives ground down the hallway, to the much more expansive meeting area:

    [IMG]

    It's positively huge in there compared to the office. Sidious exploited his enemies' relative lack of room in the office to score three easy kills.
  12. Sistros Force Ghost

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    now that last point I definately agree with, he used his enviroment to his advange, something every martial artist must do

    (I've studied several)

    to the rest of your post I'll respond when I have more time my friend
    Last edited by Sistros, Oct 13, 2012
  13. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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  14. Sistros Force Ghost

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    can you see the toolbar where you type your post?

    well there is an icon that looks like a tree right next to the film reel,

    click the tree and paste the url :)
  15. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm using my phone to post, so I don't see a toolbar(I saw it on the old forums, but not here). Maybe the toolbar is viewable only on a computer?
  16. Sistros Force Ghost

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    in that case,

    [ IMG ] URL [ /IMG ] without spaces might work
    Last edited by Sistros, Oct 13, 2012
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  17. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    [IMG]
  18. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

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    Thanks for the tip :)

    Before reading your post, I went ahead and broke down and paid the $2 for their forum app, and found the image attachment option there.
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    I would change the fact that Fisto, Tiin, Kolar died so easily. I would drag out the fight with those other 3 for a little bit but keep the rest of the Mace/Sidious fight. If Fisto, Tiin and Kolar were used to stop Anakin from intervening that would be nice but it would change the OT. Mace should have alerted Yoda, and the rest of the Jedi and armed the temple and gone to Organa, Padme and Mothma.
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  20. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    @DarthBoba Brilliant idea about contacting all Jedi before confronting Palpatine and ordering a retreat to the temple, but nobody knew that the Clones would turn against everyone since they'd been working with them for so long, so I guess the Jedi could have told their troops to stay and finish the battles while they leave? That way if Order 66 didn't happen they could still continue where they all left off in their battles.

    Also I just thought of something the Jedi could have done, force pushed Palpatine away at some point to give them room to spread out or move to the next room?
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Yeah, nobody knew; still, this is a guy who's spent the last decade turning the tables on people. Some preparation might be wise in advance. :p
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  22. Ferus Olin Jedi Master

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    Sidious is leagues above every jedi in lightsaber combat except Mace Windu and Yoda. The jedi were only going to arrest him NOT kill him. Once they found out the worst case scenario they had no time to prepare against a well prepared Sidious. I admit Kolar's death wasn't that well edited Tinn's death was fine because Sidious swung around so fast he couldn't get a good swing. Kit Fisto's death was fine because he use Shi-Cho which while is more defensive of the various lightsaber techniques it's more suited to face multiple lightsabers (General Grievous) than precise strikes that Sidious did. Also don't forget the scream Sidious made which would've made anyone freak out.
  23. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    I read somewhere that his "Force Scream" or Howl (whatever you call it) is some kind of Sith power that disoriented a couple of the Jedi when he attacked. Add to that the close quarters, I can see how he took out the first two.
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  24. sith_rising Force Ghost

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    The best defense is a good offense. If you stand still, four men can attack you. If four of them are lined up, and you make a straight line to the guys on the left and remove him as a threat, and keep moving, the other three have to come at you one at a time. Especially if you're talking about swords. They can't exactly dogpile you, lest they all kill each other on accident. I didn't have a problem with the scene. Those other Jedi have been built up in the EU to be lightsaber gods, but we saw in AOTC that even a Council member can be killed by Jango Fett. Sidious is way beyond most of those guys.
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  25. BoomBach Jedi Youngling

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    People aren't complaining about the logistics of it. It's just that they have made those three council members loved and important parts of the star wars saga. It'd be like having Han SOlo shot in the face by firendly fire in the first five minutes on Endor. I mean it's completely possible but...its just not Star Wars like that. The book is much better. Only Agen Kolar is killed quickly by Sideous surprise attacking almost. Then There's a momentary duel between him and Tinn who gets decapitated and then it cuts to Anakin who when he walks in sees Fisto and Windu still dueling Palpatine until the green saber goes out. I'm just saying if they were going to kill the three jedi like that, it shouldn't of been three Jedi we had grown to know and love...
    Last edited by BoomBach, Nov 21, 2012
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