Mace Goes for the Kill: Legal???

No. Palpatine was armed with force lighting bt dooku haven't got hands so hwe was really disarmed.

 

That depends on your definition of legal. Was it legal by law or was it moral or ethical. By law, a jedi is not supposed to kill. Mace had his man down and he could have arrested him-that is the legal way. Ethically/morally, he should have sliced up Palps like a Thanksgiving Turkey. Palps, in essence, has killed millions of people, took power away from the people, and has cost a lot of jedi their lives plunging them into a war of his own creation. Plus, he was not helpless, he was a Sith master and with that kind of power, he was too dangerous to be kept alive. The Sith are like bad money because they corrupt almost everything that comes into contact with them. Palps, in all actuality, was not helpless, he was just playing coy to lure in young Skywalker. Using the principles of the Jedi Order against him.

 

"But the jedi dont, and even more importantly, they have no PROOF at that point in the film. "

They certainly do know. Dooku told them that Darth Sidious was responsible for what happened at Naboo years earlier. They also know Sidious was Dooku's master. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Sidious / Palpatine manufactured the clone wars. They certainly had more than enough cause to arrest him, for more reasons than just "being a Sith."

 

Legal and moral are two different things.

Heck no, it probably wasn't legal.


Heck ya, it was probably moral.

 

I found this artice really interesting from movieministry.com:

---

[b] From Apostle to Apostate: Revenge of the Sith as Cautionary Tale
by Marc T. Newman, Ph.D. [/b]


[i] (Editor?s Note: Warning -- the following article contains explanations of scenes from Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith -- so if you want to be surprised, archive this article and read it when you return from the cinema.) [/i]

No one who is remotely theologically grounded would ever equate the Jedi of the Star Wars films with the Church -- but since, in the Star Wars mythology, they are the agents of good, Christians attending these films naturally identify with them. And why not? They are dedicated to peace and are, as old Ben Kenobi told young Luke Skywalker, the guardians of peace in the Old Republic. But as the Star Wars legend unfolds, viewers discover that instead of continuing the clear good-versus-evil theme of the first film, the later films demonstrate that the Jedi operate heavily in what some might call the grey areas. The Jedi are ascetics, but not in the mold of the Christian ascetics who subdued their bodies in order to get closer to God and become more holy. The Jedi are more closely aligned with the pagan ascetics who used self-mastery to gain power. (A detailed explanation of this similarity is available on the MovieMinistry website here -- http://www.movieministry.com/article.php?article=52).

The latest installment, Revenge of the Sith, details Anakin Skywalker?s descent from prospective Jedi Master to Sith Lord, Darth Vader. And while George Lucas? characters like to talk a lot about ?destiny,? it seems clear that the actions of the Jedi were more than mere coincidental factors in Anakin?s transformation. What I saw in the film could be a primer in how to turn an apostle to an apostate. For Christians willing to use a fictional movie as a mirror to examine their own behaviors, Revenge of the Sith can serve as a cautionary tale, particularly about how some churches treat their young members. When the Church feels like a hostile place, acts hypocritically, is insensitive, and avoids dogma, it, like the Jedi, can contribute toward pushing people to an embracing, waiting Dark Side.

[b] Kept at Arm?s Length [/b]

A slave since birth, Anakin is forced to leave his mother on Tatooine because he is going to be made part of something bigger than himself -- the Jedi order. But once he is presented to the Jedi Council, their initial inclination is to reject the boy as too old and full of anger (never mind all of the things he might have to be angry about). But by Revenge of the Sith, Anakin has proven his worth on many occasions, including saving his master Obi-Wan ten times. That Anakin is a powerful Jedi is without question, but other than Obi-Wan, none of the other Jedi actively befriend the young man. When Chancellor Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi Council are afraid of Anakin?s power and are keeping him down because they fear they will be unable to control him, the accusation has a ring of truth to it -- and not simply because Anakin is liable to pride.

In some of our churches, young people are viewed as a curiosity. They are kept at arm?s length. They are separated from the main body of adult believers by means of special church services for teens and separate Bible studies. Other times, churches spend more time entertaining the young than discipling them. After all, there will always be adults in the church who can do things faster, and better, than young believers. Also, the zeal of the young can be infectious, but also threatening -- and can expose our own weaknesses. After a while, young people develop an identity that has little connection with the church as a whole. There seem to be few programs to see people through the difficult transition from teenager to adulthood -- instead colleges serve that function, and unfortunately many young people do not survive that fiery baptism. Unable to connect at church, they connect e

 

I see it like this:

Mace, Kit, and the other jedi, come in, and tell palps that he is under arrest in the name of the galactic senate. they raise their lightsabers to show that if needs be, they will use them. then palps goes mental and lunges forward, kill sthe other 2 jedi, goes for kit, who blocks a few blows then goes down. mace and palps trade blows back to the office area, where palps gets knocked down and his sabre goes out the window. mace on several occasions tells palps he is under arrest. when all of this happens, and palps says "no no no no you will DIE!!!" and hits mace with the lightning, mace raises his lightsaber in SELF DEFENCE to BLOCK palps lightning. Palps has gone for Mace to kill him, so anything mace does after that can be classed as self defence, and mace is right when he says palps is "too dangerous to be kept alive", and, like one of the previous posts says, if mace did manage to arrest him, what next. anything that would happen to the jedi would just be delayed slightly. palps would have got off, then carried on where he left off. so what mace did was right.

 

So would Anakin not have turned if Mace had decided to arrest him with Anakins assitance and had Palpatine stand trial? Anakin was willing to have Palpatine stand trial...Mace agrees and Anakin doesn't turn at that moment.

The whole scene just doesn't play well...wish they would have spent more time finetuning the turn to the dark side.

 

So would Anakin not have turned if Mace had decided to arrest him with Anakins assitance and had Palpatine stand trial? Anakin was willing to have Palpatine stand trial...Mace agrees and Anakin doesn't turn at that moment.

Yes, but the story would have taken a whole nother arc. Even if Palpatine didn't manipulate the courts, he would have been scheduled for execution for his crimes in which case we would have been in the EXACT same place as before. Palpatine holds the key to Padme. If Palpatine dies, Padme dies. Anakin still turns. Regardless, the turning point for Anakin is his need to stop death.

 

We know he did those things. But the jedi dont, and even more importantly, they have no PROOF at that point in the film.
Yes they do! If they could prove to the public that Palpatine was the Sith Lord (which they themselves already knew to be true because Anakin had told them), then they can prove that Palpatine was a traitor to the Republic for starting the war in the first place. And that's just where the list begins....

===========================================
Think of it this way: Palpatine has the Jedi in a checkmate position. It's already over. No matter what they do, he still wins, and they still lose. They just don't know it yet.

1) If they don't move against him, he wipes them all out and comes up with a good reason to do so.

2) If they do move against him (and he knows they will, because they will fight to survive), he can turn the public against them and have them wiped out anyway.

2a) If they just try to arrest him, and refuse to kill him, he can manipulate the Senate to get himself free, paint the Jedi as unjust agressors, and have them all wiped out.

2b) If they do try to kill him, and Anakin lets them (which he knows won't happen), the public will just turn against the Jedi all on their own.

2ba)If they do try to kill him, and Anakin tries to stop them, and fails, Anakin will automatically turn to the Dark Side and become the new Sith Lord, and move against all of the Jedi to have them wiped out.

2bb) If they do try to kill him, and Anakin tries to stop them, and succeeds, Palpatine will have gained a new apprentice, and they will wipe the Jedi Order out of existence together.
===========================================

The only uncertain part is that if Anakin did become the new Sith Lord, would Obi-Wan still have been able to beat him? What about Yoda? Or would he have been far too powerful? Because if they did beat him, then at least the Sith would still be gone, even if the rest of the Republic still turned against the Jedi....

But it matters not. It didn't happen that way. The Jedi were locked into a checkmate position. They had to something. And they did. And it was a morally valid move, albeit pushing the limit. But it didn't work out the way they wanted it to, because Palpatine had made sure that it wouldn't in the first place. That's all. Was it moral? Yes. Was it legal? We don't know, and it's irrelevant. Did it work? No. Could it have worked? No, because Palpatine's plot had already advanced to the point of no return right under their noses. And before now, they could not have morally moved against him, as they did not know his secret double identity. he had kept it a closely guarded secret, because he knew that if it was revealed, the Jedi could move against him. But once his plot was in place, it didn't matter. He sprung the trap, revealed his identity to Anakin, who revealed it to the Jedi. Checkmate. See my list above. They couldn't win now. It was too late, and they had already lost.

 

Dude, he's a confirmed Sith Lord and a sworn enemy of the Jedi. Besides, Mace is a skill level 7 Jedi, this form is so intense he literally walks the very thin line between good and evil.

 

SANDCRAWLER

Very nice find. More surprising, the article is a very astute interpretation of the movie. I especially find compelling the issue related to the Jedi's dogmatic focus, and failure to reach out to Anakin.

Did you guys think that the Jedi could have reached out and tried to explain things more fully than Anakin. Anakin wasn't brought up, like they were, as a child who only knew the Jedi's rules. Anakin had more freedom of thought, action, and philosphy as a child. I find that the Jedi, because of a dogmatic focus on rules and tradition, failed to reach out to Anakin and explain things.

Especially, as related to why they wanted to spy on Palpatine (which is explained much better, and more reasonably in the book).- It even makes you wonder why Anakin is being so unreasonable in not being made into a Master (Wasn't Ki-Adi-Mundi a knight on the counsel during the first movie?).

 

This thread goes to show just how brilliant Sidious was. The situation he created meant that the jedi were damned whatever they did.

 

Did you guys think that the Jedi could have reached out and tried to explain things more fully than Anakin. Anakin wasn't brought up, like they were, as a child who only knew the Jedi's rules. Anakin had more freedom of thought, action, and philosphy as a child. I find that the Jedi, because of a dogmatic focus on rules and tradition, failed to reach out to Anakin and explain things.

That's one of the main reasons why I dont understand why they raised Luke in the exact same fashion as they did Anakin. (and since he was older than Anakin, in some ways it was even worse) The jedi were playing with fire when they allowed Luke to grow and form the same kind of attachments that Anakin had grown up with.

 

Agreed. Makes a good read. Thanks for the post sandcrawler - probably a little late in coming seeing you posted this a few months back - but thanks!

 

Yeah this is back when we used to have some good topics.

(I love reading the old stuff)

 

I don't think it is about legality because Sidious only feigned weakness when he knew Anakin was there to possibly back him up. Sidious definitely would have gone for the killing strike and continued to pour on the lightning, and eventually taken out Mace. I think Mace knew he was faking it, and would revert back to finishing his attempt on Mace's life if Sidious didn't have Anakin's support. This was a kill or be killed scenario, not an arrest situation anymore like it originally was intended to be. Mace was in a most dire situation, and needed to take drastic measures. Three of his allies had just been killed, and the future of the Republic, not to mention his own life rested in his hands...

 

I think Mace knew he was faking it,

I agree with this.

I think Mace was well aware of what Sidious was doing.


LEGAL.

 

The novel suggests he doesnt realise Sidious is faking.

 

You know how I feel about "the novel".

 

But the facial expression on Windu's face suggest to me that he knew what Sidious was up to.

 

Thats why I posed it.

I dont think Mace knew. Its not truly shown on screen whether he knows or not. therefore we must go to the only explanation of it - the novel. Chances are, seeing this part isnt contradicted by the film and it was line edited by Lucas (he he) it stands as a plausible answer.

 

I dont agree with this at all.

I think that he knew and it's evident onscreen.

When he looks at Anakin and then looks back at Sidious and rolls his head and begins to strike, it looks as if he basically is saying he's had enough of Darth Sidious, and he finally sees what he's been doing to Anakin and is going to end it.

He just saw it too late.

 

Since the book has come up, I would have to disagree with the comment that he didn't know Sidious was faking it. In the book it states,"That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the darkside itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...." Now if he realizes this then he knows that Anakin is the key, and that Sidious has been preparing Anakin for this very moment,twisting his thoughts and seducing him. Mace has to kill Sidious or he's done for. If the "Chosen One," intervenes on behalf of Sidious that's it. The end of Mace, the Jedi, and the Republic.

 

The jedi were playing with fire when they allowed Luke to grow and form the same kind of attachments that Anakin had grown up with.

Huh ? Luke never had a girlfriend. One cute chick and who knows what kind of evil he would have perpetrated.

 

He knew. Both the film and the book make it obvious. That's why he has no problem striking Palpatine down.

Anakin doesn't realize it is a ruse - he is tricked into stopping Mace and he realizes this after Sidious kills Mace.

Mace knew.