PT Mace really is a traitor, isn't he?

After watching Revenge of the Sith again, I realized something about Mace's motivations. He seems to justify overthrowing Palpatine not for the sake of the Republic, but for the sake of protecting the Jedi order. It seems to me that for Mace's attempt to remove Palpatine from power not to be considered traitorous Mace should only, or at least primarily, be motivated out of the desire to preserve the Republic. However, his main motivation, it seems, is preserving the Jedi order.

As a real world analogy, Mace's motivations seem sort of equivalent to leader of the Russian Orthodox church wanting to overthrow Vladimir Putin (the elected President of Russia who acts like a borderline dictator) not to preserve the Russian democracy but rather to preserve the Russian Orthodox church from destruction. Arguably, having such a motive greatly diminishes the justification for Mace's actions.

When discussing strategy with the other Jedi masters, Mace states: "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor."

Ki-Adi-Mundi responds that Palpatine must be removed from office if he does not give up his emergency powers.

Mace then says: "The Jedi will have to take control of the Senate to ensure the peaceful transition to a new government."

So, at this point, Mace has no knowledge that Palpatine is behind the war. His concern seems to be that Palpatine is a threat to the Jedi. Nevertheless, Mace is suggesting not only overthrowing Palpatine but also the Senate, which was democratically elected and would presumably be ignorant of Palpatine's nefarious goals. Why does he suggest this? Presumably because acting in this way would better help preserve the Jedi order.

Yoda's response to Mace's suggestion is: "To a dark place this line of thought will carry us." Not a possibility that it will lead to a dark place, but a certainty.


Later, when Anakin, whom Mace does not fully trust, tells him that he believes that Palpatine is a Sith lord, Mace again reveals his real motives.

He responds: "Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi order is to survive."

Mace's response must have an important effect on Anakin here. Palpatine has already planted the notion that the Jedi and the Sith are equivalent in Anakin's mind, arguing that both the Sith and the Jedi are out for greater power, specifically telling him: "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Mace's response in this scene only validates these suspicions in Anakin's mind. It shows him that Mace is primarily concerned with the survival of the Jedi order, and not where it arguably should be: preserving the Republic. For Mace, the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith apparently takes precedence over democratic ideals.

Once again, this would be like the leader of the Russian Orthodox church saying, upon learning that Putin was planning to dissolve Parliment: "We must stop Putin. He will destroy the Orthodox church."

Mace's reactions at these times reveal his true priorities. The Republic appears more a means to achieve the end goal of preserving the Jedi order in Mace's perspective than an end in itself. His desire to take the extra step of disbanding the Senate after deposing Palpatine provides strong evidence for this. Since the Senate is an elected body and since there is no evidence that it is involved in Palpatine's treachery, it should be left to decide how to proceed after Palpatine is deposed. However, the danger with this course of action for Mace is that the Senate might condemn the Jedi coup as unjust and, in reaction, disband the order, and as a legitimate elected body, that is their right. Since Mace cares first and foremost about preserving the Jedi order, he suggests taking this second step of disbanding the Senate, even though this act would be tantamount to treason, as the Senate is a legitimately elected body.

As a consequence, Palpatine has good justification for accusing Mace of being a traitor. (Of course, from another perspective, there is good reason for accusing Palpatine of being a traitor to the Republic as well.) Anakin also has good reason to suspect that Mace has traitorous motives. He knows that Mace intends to confront Palpatine because, as he told Anakin, he needs to act quickly for "the Jedi to survive." More significantly, later, in the conversion scene, Anakin reveals that the Jedi's next move will be against the Senate. Whether Anakin has overheard this strategy being proposed on some other occasion or he knows the Jedi so well that he can predict their next move, it really doesn't matter. Anakin is correct: the Jedi's next move, as stated by Mace and Ki-Adi-Mundi, is to disband the Senate. So, once again, their intention to move against the Senate provides further confirmation that the Jedi are indeed treasonous. Given the opportunity, they too will take control of the democratically controlled Senate. Certainly preserving the Jedi order is not an evil goal, but Mace's desire to go so far to protect it that he will disband the Senate makes him a threat to the democracy as well.

I have to say one of the reasons I love Revenge of the Sith is how it creates these grey area scenarios. The more I pay attention, the more there is. Just a few lines tell you so much about a character's deeper motives and creates a much richer, more nuanced drama where the right course of action is less clear-cut. In fact, perhaps protecting the Jedi order is more important than preserving the Republic's democratic continuity; it is the more "pure" institution of the two. However, in political terms, sacrificing the Republic, even for a short period of time, to preserve the Jedi Order is pretty much the definition of treason I would argue.

 

Nerdling, great post. Insightful, detailed and constructive.

I have not much to comment(I'm not one to post wall of text) but I pretty much agree with this. Mace is seen more aggressive as the movies go on.

 

Hmm....but surely this only works on the principle that Mace can only hold one idea in his head at any time. I mean, sure, he says he senses a plot to destroy the Jedi, but does that define his motivations? There is a plot to destroy the Jedi. Why? So that there is nobody to stand in the way of the Sith. Just before Anakin chops off Mace's hand (for his own, personal, reasons) and Palpatine blasts him with Force lightening screaming about "Unlimited Powah!!" (Just a couple of clues as to who the real 'bad guys' are here, I think) he says to Palpatine "The oppression of the Sith will never return".

Earlier, in his discussion with Yoda, he talks of the Jedi perhaps having to act to ensure a transition of power back to democracy...so his motivation is not simply to protect a religious organisation for its own sake, which is whatyourpost suggests, but is addressing the nature of that organisation...that they are there as a guardians of peace and justice...

 

I like how that technically everything Palpatine says in his Empire speech is true.

 

"Take control of the Senate" is not quite the same thing as "Disbanding the Senate"

 

Well he did commit 2 acts of treason based on the hearsay of another Jedi.

Jedi sympathisers fail to see this.

 

One act based on hearsay (attempted arrest) - one act based on his on initiative (after being blasted by huge quantities of Sith Lightning, deciding to kill Palpatine).

 

I have to say though that even if you accept the argument the Jedi maintaining power would (also) be a bad thing... it would still be quite considerably better than Palpatine taking over. Even if the Jedi's good intentions of temporary control of the Senate to restore democracy fell through they would still be ruling as a council and sharing opinions, not one man ruling the entire galaxy. Their aims were still always to try and maintain peace and order even if their methods were slowly becoming more worrisome and troubling. There is no realistic chance of a galaxy ruled by Jedi, directly or otherwise, instigating a freaking Death Star's construction.

At the worst, the Jedi are misguided but well intentioned jerks. That's still far better than an evil megalomaniac dictator, which is what the galaxy ended up with.

 

Since the Jedi serve the Republic, an attack against them is an attack against the Republic as well.

 

The 2 acts of Treason were...

1. Attempt to overthrow the elected Government (Galactic Republic).
2. Attempted Murder of the Supreme Chancellor (Galactic Republic's Sovereign).

Palpatine was acting in self defence. The 4 Jedi Masters already had there weapons drawn, they had just committed their first act of treason (overthrow attempt) in which Palps told them what they were doing is treason. Palps had every right to protect himself against the 4 Jedi Masters who were illegally in his office committing treason.

 

They weren't overthrowing the entire government, merely the Chancellor (who was a member of a banned illegal cult and responsible for several war crimes besides.) And while they had their weapons drawn, the first attack was from Palpatine so it was murder not self defence on his part. It was basically Star Wars style impeachment - Palpatine had broken the laws and they were enforcing them. Legally they were entirely correct to do so.

 

I think GL definitely made sure that Mace was portrayed with mixed motives in that scene. His somewhat arrogant gait and facial expression even when entering Palpatine's office says a lot. I am one of those fans that believes that Palps had the insight and ability to see inside someone and fully exploit and throw gasoline on their weaknesses in order to achieve his final end. I think he played Windu like a song and brought those motives of self-preservation via the Jedi Order to the forefront so that Mace would do something rash so that he could initiate his endgame.

 

No doubt Palpatine intended all along to pick a fight with Mace and provoke him into making it a violent confrontation. But Mace went in intending to make a perfectly legal arrest, as Palpatine ALSO knew. The only time Mace actually veered into (possibly) illegal acts were right at the end of the duel where he attacked what appeared to be a defeated opponent. But again, Palpatine may well have accounted for this eventuality.

 

The "hearsay of a confession does not make an arrest legal" argument seems a bit dubious.

If a police officer confronts someone - they admit to their crimes - the officer (being not equipped to arrest such a powerful someone on their own) goes away to the police station to send a SWAT team - I don't think arguments that:

"the officer's having to tell fellow officers about the confession means they can't make the arrest"

working.

 

Well there was plenty of hard evidence that someone very high up in the Chancellor's circle was a) feeding intel to the Separatists and b) a Sith. The Jedi had suspected it for a while and had proof for some time. However, they hadn't thought it could be the Chancellor himself until now when they get a trusted source giving them a lead. That's perfectly valid grounds to make the arrest. If they're wrong... they let him go without charge. All of which Mace knew going in (as did Palpatine.)

 

How does mace all of a sudden sense the dark side in Palps after no one has been able to for 2.5 movies?

 

I have a feeling it was the whole 'murdered three Jedi' business that made him think something was a bit off here. That or being zapped with lightning.

 

Inb4 Darkslayer



KYLO..uh...MATT WINS!!!!

 

I wouldn't say he is a traitor. He just falls in the Palpatine's trap. The traitor is someone who intentionally does that, i.e. the treason. Mace was convinced even before that scene that Palpatine is doing something wrong. First, his mandate is gone (yes, it is war, maybe is hard to organize normal elections, etc., etc.) but is obvious that Palpatine doesn't want to retire from this almost complete emergency powers that he received in the beginning of the Clone Wars. But there is something important: the Jedi are Peace Keepers, not politician. They should not interfere in political affairs and also they should be loyal to the Republic with the little detail that they obey directly to the Chancellor. But what if the Chancellor is betraying the Republic? Generally, the Senate must resolve this situation but in that moment the Senate is converted in totally ineffective bureaucratic structure, so what is the right decision? Be truthful to the Jedi obligations or interfere and save the Republic?
Also, if Mace listened to Anakin, much would be different. Yes, the right thing was to arrest the Chancellor, not trying to execute him. But Mace also gave up to his fears: that Palpatine is too dangerous to be kept alive. And fear is the path to dark side So if Mace is betraying something here, I would say he is betraying the Jedi way.
There is also one important detail: the declination of the Jedi Order has already begun. And it happened in the AOTC exactly when they decided to hide the clone army from the Senate with the purpose that their foes will increase in number. And this came from Yoda, not from Mace. So, yes, the Jedi Order was exterminated not only by the fault of Darth Vader, but because the Jedi were more concerned about their position in the society, i.e. their power. This is not the Jedi way, this is the Sith way. And remember they was spying Palpatine and manipulating Anakin. Yes the dark side clouded everything but not exactly in the way they though. So the treason is moral, not literal.

 

I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE SITHSPITTING ACCUSATIONS ON THIS SITHSPITTING FORUM!

 

P.S. I'm curious about this small detail. Why you use this analogy? I mean, yes, the Russian Orthodox Church is very influential institution in the Russian society nowadays, but Russia is a secular country and also the Orthodox Churches never have interfered directly in the politics ( a difference from the Catholic Church) even in the Medieval times... As we already discuss the historical references i another tread I would say the historical analogy here is the extinction of the Knights Templar Order. It became too powerful and too independent and both the Pope and the French king Phillip IV the Fair wanted to destroy the Order (well the financial problems of King Phillip were also a factor). So, we don’t know exactly if the Templars tried to protect themselves in some way, but they were in the same position as the Jedi: accused in treason and diabolic practices and exterminated as Order, even physically.

 

It's an interesting proposition for sure and I admire the thought put into it but I can't agree because I find the analogy somewhat false. The Jedi are a quasi-religious order to be sure but unlike any church today, they actually have a legal and martial status in the Republic. They are priests, politicians and cops combined. As others have mentioned, Mace does have good reason to believe an attack on the Jedi is by extension an attack on the Republic as a whole.

Which is not to say that the points about Mace's 'attachment' to the order aren't valid, nor that he and the other Jedi are not taking the first steps down a very dangerous road if they do arrest Palpatine and then directly intervene in what happens next. Because that's all true and does add some needed moral relativity to the films.

 

He senses the dark side surrounding Palpatine, because he realizes that the focal point of everything traces back to him. He doesn't think that he is a Sith, but rather that he is in league with Darth Sidious. Or is the one who is under his control. All paths lead back to Palpatine. His desire to win the war through total victory, rather than through diplomacy. His continued amassing of political power. His accepting longer term limits rather than rejecting them. All these things are starting to pile up.

 

Chiming in as well to say, great post. I've long had this running around in the back of my mind when it comes to Mace. I think Lucas is specifically showing here that Mace's attitude in particular is what triggers Anakin even further to do what he does during the Mace-Palpatine fight -- Lucas deliberately rewrote the scene and reshot it later so that Mace's lines mirrored Palpatine's from earlier in the film. As has no doubt been pointed out elsewhere:

PALPATINE: Good, Anakin, good. Kill him. Kill him now!
ANAKIN: I shouldn't . . .
PALPATINE: Do it!
(Anakin kills Dooku)
PALPATINE: You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive.
ANAKIN: Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way.

Later on:
MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.
ANAKIN: You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial.
MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.
PALPATINE: I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please.
ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way . . .

Notice that in both cases Anakin opposes both the Sith and Jedi method of killing unarmed prisoners. Anakin likely has intimate knowledge of the struggle between light and dark (as he's given into darkness before) and he knows that morality is the way to balance this. Honestly, in this regard he shows more responsibility and maturity than his peers. However, both Palpatine and Mace demonstrate to Anakin that this morality is more or less expendable, and only useful when convenient. To Anakin, when Mace makes the move to kill Palpatine, he only vindicates what Palpatine said about the Jedi, as you said -- that there's no real difference whatsoever between the Jedi and the Sith, and that each one just wants power. If that's the case, then obviously Anakin will choose to save Palpatine (to save Padme), because if the Jedi and Sith seem equivalent to him at this point, at least the Sith offer to help save Padme's life. The Jedi on the other hand not only distrust him but would probably excommunicate Anakin if they knew about Padme. The choice for Anakin, if he wants to save Padme, is clear in this situation. This is partly due to how much Palpatine has played with Anakin's mind, but it's also because of the actions and attitude of the Jedi and explicitly Mace Windu.

The fact is that if Anakin would have had more time to ask Mace about his plans, and Mace had told him about the Jedi plan to take over the Senate and remove the Chancellor, how do you think Anakin would take that? As 100% backing up what Palpatine said about the Jedi. This is why I have posted before about how it's not just Anakin that's astray here -- the Jedi play into this very much and the whole fall of everything is very much due to their actions, inactions, and attitudes as well. Mace only exemplifies this to its highest order. And like the OP, I appreciate the grey layers of the prequel trilogy here. I love how Lucas shades it very realistically and sympathetically. Mace and the Jedi aren't evil. Not by a longshot. They just aren't perfect either, and their flaws at this time in history can sometimes be significant. And again Mace is a good example of that.

--
Side-note: I find it interesting how Anakin sympathizes with those that are unarmed and defenseless. I wonder if that comes from his slave background. Anakin is like someone who has risen up the ranks from poverty to the high classes. The thing is, the high classes all have their little struggles with each other for power. But Anakin can never really be as into that as those who were there from the start are. In other words, he was a slave, with a mother, with other children at the bottom of society. He wasn't an aristocratic Jedi padawan from birth. He wasn't raised or inculcated with the values or allegiance to the Jedi from birth. You can see that for him morality and the allegiance to the Jedi is just as subconscious as it is a conscious choice -- he integrates Jedi philosophy into his worldview through his own lens. Honestly, as time goes on I start to think Anakin wasn't so wrong-headed in how he made sense of it -- at least for awhile. The problem is that he will never be part of these rich, elite people. He only works and lives with them now. He isn't of their blood, so to speak. So I wonder if that's partly why he is so independent and why he's the one to switch sides back and forth from Jedi to Sith to Jedi. He seems to take the Jedi values to heart in a way that goes beyond simple obedience to Jedi code. (On that note, Luke is similar -- perhaps for the same reasons?). Anakin actually cares for the spirit of it all, which is remarkable and something Qui-Gon would have likely encouraged. It just seems more and more that he was a misfit amongst the Jedi and consequently went his own way when he felt like they were hypocrites. As Matthew Stover once put it, Anakin doesn't feel like he's shifted too much at the end of ROTS -- he feels that everyone else shifted and betrayed him. Just some interesting thoughts here.