PT Mace really is a traitor, isn't he?

agree with the statement above. The Jedi were not perfect but they did not deserve the downfall they got. They were in a no- win situation

 

And, while they really shouldn't worry about the general public's perception, it could cause them problems. A Jedi Order post Palpatine would be mistrusted, perhaps even mistreated, by the Galaxy at large. They would be looked at as traitors, possibly shunned. Being know as a Jedi might become almost an ethnic slur - "We don't serve their kind here!" . Given time, the truth would come out, but that might take a good, long while as inquiries and commissions are appointed to examine the validity of their claims. Not to mention how the Senators who liked Palpatine, or were in his circle of influence and corruption, would paint the Jedi to their constituents.

Another issue - the senator's themselves. Mace already proclaimed a plan to take control of the Senate ,to ensure a peaceful transition of power, I assume to the next Chancellor. But would the Senate just sit there and stand for this? even with proclamations of who Palpatine was and what he did, it was pretty widely established that a lot of the Senate was corrupt, and under his influence. Most of the rest just went along like sheep, doing what they were told. There's a very real possibility that the majority of the Senate would not stand for the Jedi's actions, and would ignore the attempts at censuring. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Senate continued to convene, in direct "violation" of the Jedi's orders, and put forth a motion that passed by a wide margin to ban the Jedi religion or outright ban and deregulate the Order as the peacekeeping force for the Republic ( especially now that there's a Grand Army to confront any conflicts that arise). Then what? The Jedi ignore the mandates of the Senate, who they illegally censured in the first place? start removing and/or arresting any Senators who don't follow the plan of action they put forth? Mace starting to lop off some political heads, literally?

You're 100% right - the Jedi were doomed from the moment Palpatine took office. They just didn't know it for 13 years.Cause no matter how it ended, they would look bad, and be ostracized by the Galaxy at large. which is pretty much what happened by the time of the OT anyway - the Force is an ancient religion, and the Jedi are a legend.

 

A point by point rebuttal!

I'm getting too old for this kind of thing...

Actually I mostly agree with most of your points. Maybe I should've titled the thread something like: "Mace can sort of be considered a traitor from a certain point of view, but his actions are sort of defensible from another point of view." (That's a little long though!)

1 other thing I'd point out also. Palpatine is definitely a traitor, though through much of films the Jedi don't have enough info to "prove" he is a traitor, and even at the end, they have only weak evidence (Anakin's word). Still, we as an audience know he's a traitor. However, both sides in a conflict can be traitors. For instance, if the Republicans tried to throw out the Constitution as a power grab to rule as dictatorships and then the Democrats, as a counter-move, decided to rule as dictators because they believe themselves to be better leaders than the Republicans, then in this situation both sides would be traitors to the US democracy and its Constitution.

So, I would say that Palpatine's actions are definitely traitorous while some of the moves suggested by Mace and other Jedi can be considered traitorous or are arguably traitorous.

And really, my #1 top point is not about Mace at all, but really how the situation in ROTS appears to Anakin -- who's the film's tragic figure. So, more than anything else, I'm talking about how Anakin perceives Mace and the other Jedi. Because Palpatine has manipulated Anakin (which has created a bias in Anakin) and because Anaki is exposed to statements by Mace that imply that Mace has 1 set of motivations (and Anakin can't read Mace's mind to know that Mace might have other motivations too), then Anakin fairly comes to the conclusion that Mace is acting as a traitor or could be acting as traitor.

When Anakin reveals to Mace that Palpatine is a Sith, Anakin hears Mace say: "We must move quickly if the Jedi are to survive." Anakin also knows (through some means) that the Jedi are planning to take over the Senate as their next move. So, Anakin, who already doesn't trust the Jedi, can infer that the Jedi are planning to take over and that they are taking over to protect the order and not the Republic. Since Anakin doesn't trust them, he can't ask for more information because he wouldn't trust their response anyway. For instance, when Mace responds that they need to act if the Jedi are to survive, Anakin could ask Mace: "Don't you care about the Republic surviving?" Mace would then say: "Yes, of course I do." However, Anakin would just think Mace is lying. Anakin, in this situation, would think that Mace's 1st words in response are revealing his real motives. Anakin would particularly feel this way because he knows about the stuff about taking over the Senate. Anakin could bring that up too. And I agree with you that taking over the Senate might be justified: there are good arguments for taking this course of action; there are also good arguments against it. However, since Anakin doesn't trust the Jedi, he would side with the arguments against taking over the Senate (he might also side with them on principle), and since he would take that position, he'd again be predisposed to think that Mace is lying to him about his motives.

In regards to Mace, I'm going from what the film reveals to us because that's what Anakin is aware of. He can't be aware of what's going on in Mace's head, and the novel reveals that type of information. In the film, we hear Mace primarily talking about preserving the Jedi order. Now, Mace may also be equally motivated to defend the Republic (but we and Anakin can't know this because it's not possible to know what Mace is thinking) or Mace may think that preserving the Jedi order is the best means to preserving the Republic, which he may or may not be right about, but again Anakin and the audience watching the film can't know this because we can't read his mind.

This is a good point. It shows that Mace probably cares as much about preserving the Republic as he does the Jedi order. However, Anakin can't know this, and we, as viewers, aren't given this info in the film.

Yes, he is desperate to defend the Republic, but some would argue that he is going too far by arguing that the Jedi have the right to disband the Senate, even temporarily. It would be akin to the military deposing a treasonous Obama but then taking the extra step of disbanding the US Congress too.

I'm not arguing that Mace is wrong to come to this conclusion. Maybe the Republic Senate is too corrupt, and as a practical matter, it needs to be disbanded.

What I am arguing is that there is a fair counter-argument that Mace's suggestion to take over the Senate is going too far (and thus equal to treason). The Senators were fairly elected, so it could be argued that Mace has no right to take the step of disbanding it, and it can also be argued that taking that step could destabilize the Republic or lead to civil war.

I'm not saying Mace's point of view is wrong, but I'm also not saying the counter point of view is wrong either. In fact, what I'm really saying is that this makes ROTS a complicated work of art since it presents moral scenarios without single clear-cut right and wrong answers. What makes some of the greatest works of art so powerful is that they show that certain moral questions have no simple solutions, and ROTS illustrates this idea too.

I agree. However, one could argue that his first concern should be about the Republic and not the Jedi order. Also, even if Mace is equally concerned about each, it gives the impression to Anakin that Mace is more concerned about the Jedi order than the Republic. Their plan to suspend the Senate especially gives this impression.

Again, I'm not saying that Mace is wrong. Maybe preserving the Jedi order is more important than preserving the pretty corrupt Republic. I'm simply saying that good arguments can be made on both sides. I'm also saying that it is fair to argue that the appearance that Mace places preserving the Jedi order above the Republic makes it seem that Mace is a traitor to someone like Anakin, and that it is fair for Anakin to come to this conclusion knowing what he knows.

Yes, I agree with you. There's another point in my above post where I point out that unlike our religions, the Jedi know that the Force exists.

I also agree that this gives Mace a stronger rationale for defending the Jedi order. He knows he's fighting to protect something that is real. So, even if Mace were only fighting to save the Jedi order and not the Republic, he would arguably still be justified. However, at the same time, someone who felt that the Republic was more important than the Jedi order would also have an equally justifiable perspective. It's not black and white. That's what makes judging who's right and who's wrong difficult. I'm not saying Mace is in the wrong. I'm only saying that it is perfectly justified for someone with totally just and noble priorities to logically come to the conclusion that Mace is in the wrong. Someone doesn't have to come to that conclusion, but someone can.

I'm not following your point here. If a priest only supports the US democracy because it allows his church to exist, then that priest has no real allegiance to principles of US democracy. It's merely a means to an end for him.

I agree that Mace can be called a traitor to the Jedi order when he breaks their rule against killing a helpless opponent, and I can especially understand why Anakin would see it that way.

I completely agree that Sidious is 100% a traitor, but like the Republic and Democratic example that I give above, you can have situation where both parties are acting traitorously.

In this case, I'd argue that Sidious is definitely a traitor (though the Jedi don't have great evidence against him) and I'd say that good arguments can be made on both sides that Mace is acting traitorously and that he is not. The move to disband the Senate is especially questionable.

Also, Anakin definitely becomes a traitor by the end of the film as he wants to rule the galaxy as a dictator. I think that earlier in the film, however, Anakin only acts traitorously out of ignorance and manipulation. Also, when he protects Palpatine, that is a time when Anakin remains loyal to the Jedi and the Constitution. It is against the code to kill an unarmed apparently helpless opponent, and at least in ideal circumstances, Palpatine should stand trial.

However, in this case, there is a conflict between Anakin's intentions and his words. His real desire is to save Padme. He's only using the right to stand trial as a justification for his behavior. So, his action is in accordance with the spirit of the Republic but his reasons aren't. So, once again, it's hard to say if Anakin is really in the wrong or in the right. It's more complicated than that.

I agree that Master Windu would disagree. Unfortunately, he was killed by an evil guy who understood that all of his goals were treasonous.

 

Mace Windu only cares about the Jedi order. Nothing else.

 

Curious how this would've worked out. Imagine in pre Episode 3 fanfic, people predicted Mace would get militant and Obi wan and Yoda would have to stop him, or something. Fanfic idea......

 

Mace is not a traitor. His actions were entirely justified in moving to arrest the mastermind behind both factions of the Clone Wars -- a Dark Side wielder who used lies and subterfuge to expand his own power and keep himself in office beyond his term limit. To argue the opposite is legalistic pedantry, IMO.

 

I concur. I believe that Yoda would have put a bit more thought into what he was doing, as opposed to Mace who charged into arrest Sidious. But Mace was impulsive and he had an attachment to the Republic as civilization. He wanted to do the right thing, however.

 

The problem how it looks to the general public is different form the problem how it really is. Mace is not a traitor, because he wanted to protect the Republic, not only the Jedi Order. But he did it wrong, trying to kill Palpatine and also not to think enough if Palpatine could suspect anything. Look, Palpatine takes s great risk saying to Anakin who he really is. Yes, Palpatine knows that Anakin desperately wants to save Padme but there is always a risk. Anakin did what he has to do , paradoxically in both situations: reveling the Sith to the Jedi Order and trying to protect Palpatine from execution. Mace failed, and because of him Anakin also fsiled swearing as Darth Vader. The funny thing is that the duel between Mace and Darth Sidious revealed the true face of Palpatine: he is the evil but the general public didn't understand. The general public in the real world generally understands the true too late (we have a tread for historical references; I should include that, too). The king's killer/impostor many times is considered as traitor no matter if everybody in the country wants the king dead. Here, the same: after 20 years, the general public (in the OT era) already knows who the bad guy is, the Jedi are redeemed, but is too late, they are extinct.

 

Mace did nothing wrong. Even if he was trying to take over the Senate, most of the senators were Imperials as proved by the end of RotS.

 

Mace commits 2 acts of treason. Yes he is a traitor.

 

As popular history has Patrick Henry say,


"If this be treason - make the most of it."

 

He's not a traitor if the person he's arresting for these crimes is actually guilty of them though, which Palpatine was. Palpatine said he WAS the Senate, that doesn't make it so. What he actually was would be a) a Sith Lord (illegal under the Senate he claimed to serve/represent) and b) guilty of numerous war crimes (and probably several personal crimes too though Mace couldn't know that) either of which means he's not got a legal leg to stand on. Like I said before... this was impeachment not treachery. If the evidence was false or non-existent (and they knew it going in) THEN Mace would indeed be a traitor but simply arresting someone is not treachery.

 

There is a chapter in the ROTS novelization (it's called "Masters" I believe) where Mace and Yoda debate about moving against the senate. Mace seems to think that moving against the senate could save the order, even if it means destroying their reputation.

I do not know if Mace is a traitor, but he could have saved the Jedi if Yoda would have let him be more active in stopping Palpatine. It is an issue with no clear answer though. No answer is completely right.

 

Mace is one badass Jedi that's why. Master of the Vaapad form.

 

That is some Stockholm Syndrome stuff there! That or such a focus on the letter of the law that it's spirit is abandoned without a thought.

 

The problem is, Mace rushed headfirst into a bad situation without thinking the consequences through. He did it because he believed the Jedi Order was in imminent danger, and it was. But he played right into Palpatine's hands. Hell, Anakin point blank tells Palps he is going to let the Jedi Council know that Palpatine is Sidious - he KNOWS they will be coming for him!

A better option, perhaps - Mace should've gone to the Senator's who were opposed to Palpatine and what he was doing (Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Fang Zar, etc.) . Get their support ( we know several were up that night - hell, Bail was flying around in his speeder!) . Have them convene a special session of the Senate the next day, and lay out the evidence they have with the Jedi there ready to arrest Palpatine... Palps can't be throwing Force lightning around in front of the other Senator's, he likely wouldn't have had Anakin by his side ( as no arrest / assassination attempt took place the night before), and if he has the Clones come into the situation, it makes him look like the aggressor not willing to answer the charges against him, rather than the Jedi.

 

Nice thinking, but...

Palpatine's awaiting the arrival of the Jedi to arrest him., They don't come. What is he to do? Wait and see what comes of this? That's too passive for Palpatine. He would simply have to enact Order 66 there and then....

 

Fair enough, but this Henry fella later apologised and declared his loyalty to his king.

I'm sure Mace was on the verge of doing the same thing

Hello Youngling, may I suggest you stay on topic (if you can), and not personally attack another person, when they may have a different opinion to yours.

What are your thoughts on Mace being a traitor?

 

While insightful, I think some of you are forgetting that matters of the force, particularly the contest of dark and light, are not governed directly by politics in a sense. What Mace and the other Jedi did had little to do with politics. It became somewhat personal knowing Palpatine was the dark lord of the Sith.

 

You say like the Jedi were some kind of a special unit, and only care themselves, Mace fought for the Jedi because the Jedi there to help the other people or even the universe itself, without the Jedi Order, there will be a disturbance in the Force and the universe.

Even though that I don't find the Jedi perfect, and I think they are flawed, I don't think Mace was wrong on this.

 

This.

I'm all for Palpatine getting a fair trial (even for personal reasons tbh), and Mace was clearly acting brashly and on his emotions. You can make a fair case that his motivations and actions are quite clearly against the Jedi way.

But his (subjectively mind you) qualifying as a traitor condemns the whole Jedi Order to death? What law says that? Just trying to arrest the Chancellor, who it has been confirmed is actually objectively guilty of treason, and part of an illegal Order (granted the sworn enemies of the Jedi, so it was personal for Mace) is punishable by death?

That's bizarre.

 

He has a right to a trial only politically. Being the dark lord of the Sith is what makes him too dangerous to be kept alive. If he has manipulated the republic to this extent, his trial would be manipulated for his benefit, regardless of what the Jedi discovered. Mace did not act on emotion. It was his duty as a Jedi to handle it in that manner. Unfortunately, that was Palpatine's plan all along. He also manipulated the Jedi.

 

The Sith have always sought to gain power and control, but the Jedi were always a hindrance. Palpatine was successful by getting involved in politics.

Lucas obviously used this allusion with the corporate struggle he was dealing with

 

I'm just curious - how were the Sith an illegal order? I mean, we know in the past what was done, and how they are, and of course the great evil's they do. But were they every legally banned from existing within the confines of Republic space?

This has always been a political debate. From within the context of the Jedi Order, the freedom from oppression, the very concepts of goodness and Justice, Palpatine ABSOLUTELY deserved to die, and Mace WAS 100% right.

The problem is, there was another side to it, the political side to it. The idea that the Jedi planned to arrest, then decide to kill, the legally appointed Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic. And that part of it requires following rules and regulations. The big damning point for the Jedi Order was getting in bed with the Republic in the first place. By becoming the keepers of peace and justice for the Republic, the end up becoming beholden to the ideals and regulations of the Republic itself.There should have been no need for Chancellor Valorum to send 2 Jedi Knights to mediate a dispute with the Trade Federation secretly - there was a problem, they go and help resolve it. Instead, they had to be sent in secret because they would need approval from the Senate, which they would never get due to the corruption. If the Jedi had stayed ABOVE the Republic, ABOVE the politics involved, they would've had no issues. Palpatine was a Sith, and therefore must be destroyed. But in making their bed with the Republic, and enjoying the benefits that came with it, they were also tied to it, and it's downfall also tied in with the Jedi's downfall.They put themselves in a place where they had to answer to committees and get approval before doing certain things. They went from being a group following the Will of the Force to basically the Republic's Special Ops group.

 

I thought it was clear I don't think he was a traitor to the Republic but rather acting to preserve it.