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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Mace really is a traitor, isn't he?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Nerdling, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Pax12

    Pax12 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 14, 2015
    Mace's actions were justified. They weren't just looking at a Sith Lord, they were looking at the Sith Lord that they have been ACTIVELY SEEKING. Being the leader of the
    CIS is considered an act of treason, so Mace wasn't breaking the law in that regard. The fact that he was going to KILL him, however, may fall in the gray area of the law, after all, Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters, but Palpatine may still need to go to trial.
     
  2. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Technically Anakin was correct, as a fellow member of the Jedi Council opposed to Mace's actions, as well as citing Palpatine's rights. BUT...

    Isn't choosing legal procedures over what was obviously the right moral decision the whole reason the Senate became ineffective during Naboo's crisis? Besides, Mace's biggest fears were proven beyond the shadow of a doubt when he witnessed Palpatine kill three of his comrades using dark arts, and was barely able to defend himself. He had all the evidence he needed, and wasn't leaving anything to chance due to how deeply rooted Palpatine's corruption was.

    Anakin was just making excuses and trying to justify keeping him alive for his own selfish reasons; acting on a premonition to potentially save one life when the fate of the galaxy is at stake.
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the EU, they were (Darth Bane trilogy - book one - Path of Destruction).

    In the newcanon, we don't know - but we know Bane founded the rule of two - with the intention of the Sith operating in the shadows:

    http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-bane
     
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  4. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015


    Exactly right. Perfect. Morally, rightfully, for the sake of the Galaxy itself, Mace made the right decision. However, legally, procedure-wise, Mace made a traitorous decision. Again, all based on point of view - to the Jedi, to those in the know (i.e. us), Mace is not a traitor. To the Senate, their constituents, the galaxy at large, Mace was a traitor.
     
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  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Cheers for the clarification. I was just reciting what I had heard here.


    On the bolded comment, I beg to differ.

    Particularly in the novelisation, but also the script and final cut, Mace arguably makes an emotion-based decision.
    He goes in there knowing everything he needed to, to make his decision, and opted for arrest. When Palpatine repeatedly resists however, he then flips around and decides Palpatine has to die right there. He hasn't found out anything more since arriving - Palpatine is exactly the same war-criminal he was before he killed Mace's three friends and shot lighting at him. Mace is just pissed off, Palpatine has pushed him too far, and it is influencing his actions. Not necessarily arguing that Palpatine wasn't worthy of death.


    From the script... my writing is in blue.

    Just the fact that Mace is so focused on taking out Palpatine that he doesn't consider the prophecy states only Anakin can kill Palpatine is telling.
    The novelisation states he was so focused on Palpatine's "shatterpoint" he forgets to look for Anakin's.
     
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  6. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    Just to respond to this. The mirror that is often made with this scene is that with Anakin's execution of Dooku, but I would say there are a trilogy ofsuch moments.

    The first (but actually last in IU chronology)is Luke with Vader. Luke rejects killing Vader. Then we have Anakin execute the unarmed prisoner Dooku. Then we come to this pivotal scene. To say that Mace is acting on emotion or that the situation is similar to that between Anakin and Dooku is to miss vital differences.

    In the scenes with Luke/Vader and Anakin/Dooku there is nothing to be gained from the killing, it can only sate the broiling hatred and anger of the executioner. Killing Dooku will not make anything better, killing Vader will not make anything better. However, Mace rightly considers that killing Palpatine will alter many things. It is not about sating his hatred, it is about stopping the oppression of the Sith. (which raises questions about how Anakin's moment with Dooku was NOT his turn,let alone his killing in anger of the Tuskens...)

    And, as for Mace being blinded from the prophetic nature of Anakin; it isn't so much that he is blind to it as he knows Anakin will not do what must be done. Anakin's suggestions as to it not being the Jedi way are just him attempting to dissuade Mace...his real motivation is revealed as he cuts off Mace's hand "I need him".

    Why, by the way, should anybody have faith in a prophecy which "misread might have been"? Especially when the individual at the heart of the prophecy is clearly not about to do the right thing? Since when is doing the right thing to be subject to what some ancient proclamation says? Especially in an understanding that the future is always in motion, and difficult to see?

    The very notion of a "truth" to a prophecy,and a requirement of faith in it...above and beyond the here and now (yes, the storyline really is that internally contradictory) just leaves me shaking my head. What a mess.
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I wouldn't say the fact that Mace is acting on emotion (though I clearly think he is) is the parallel to Dooku's death. Mace's anger is more a contrast to Luke's serene rejection of violence at the end of ROTJ.
    (I would in fact argue that Mace is even angrier than Anakin during the moment Anakin kills Dooku though. Anakin's execution of Dooku is more about hate and revenge, plus he is hoping it will be key in ending the war, like the Civil war will arguably be over if Luke turns in ROTJ.)

    The parallel is more about Palpatine's rationalisation (to Anakin killing Dooku) seemingly matching Mace's rationalisation to killing Palpatine.

    Everyone involved in the confrontation in Palpatine's office is being hypocritical.
    - Mace appears to be using the same logic Anakin has been fed by a Sith ("He's too dangerous to be kept alive!") regardless of what good killing the Sith will bring. Anakin tells both Masters in the film "It's not the Jedi way.", both times he finds himself lecturing a superior (and essentially himself) on something that should be Jedi 101. You can see why in the heat of the moment he wouldn't have clarity. It appears his Master(s) is(are) no better than he is.
    - Anakin is hypocritical both because he killed a Sith in cold-blood earlier in the film (and with far less provocation no doubt), and plus as we all know - in Anakin the Jedi Code and what is right for the galaxy is dwarfed by his quest to save his wife.
    - Palpatine is of course the worst of the three. He isn't even really out of steam, and as soon as he gets a window he is back to his full-strength; getting to kill a Jedi he loathes for fun, ensnaring Anakin by making him complicit in Mace's death, and enacting Order 66.
    Palpatine's "He was too dangerous to be kept alive." earlier is ironic; firstly because Palpatine trained Tyrannus to that strength, secondly because Palpatine is pretty much admitting how dangerous he is himself and Mace will echo this, but finally, interestingly, hints that he saw Dooku as a threat to his vision for the Empire and the Sith. Part of Dooku still genuinely wants to end corruption, for Palpatine it is more a means to the end of total control of the galaxy. On Dooku's death; in Palpatine's mind Anakin slots in to his position fluidly. I would agree that Dooku's death doesn't essentially solve much, it is just a personal grudge Anakin sates, and of course represents Palpatine's level of control over Anakin's destiny strengthening as the events unfold.

    I know where you are coming from with Mace's seemingly justified actions in Palpatine's office, everyone would be better off if it wasn't for Anakin's decision. But Mace is a Jedi. Highly debatable if it is in the spirit of the Order to kill Palpatine on the spot, particularly when Mace is too angry to make a passive or impartial decision. It isn't the personal grab for power Palpatine pretends it is, but it is certainly leaning in that direction. Ultimately Mace wants what is best for the galaxy, but is (maybe correctly) assuming his way is the only way. Mace isn't destined to do this, Palpatine isn't stupid - he needed Anakin and Mace roughly in that situation for his plan to work, and if it didn't he could always go quietly, delay his plan for later - and dangle in front of Anakin an opportunity to pump him for information on the Sith powers. Anakin indicates he is actually considering using something that taboo for a while before he actually turns.


    It's both. Listen to what he says - "You Sith disease." He thinks of Palpatine as less than human, and is clearly a little clouded when it comes to his sworn enemy. Again, he is actually the least hypocritical of the three, but not that much less than Anakin, until after Anakin turns anyway.


    It's a narrative decision, take it or leave it. Lucas obviously felt Anakin could come back from these two events because they aren't all the way there. The Tuskens tortured and killed his mother, Anakin wasn't even operating on a cerebral level, he just lost it. He regrets it afterwards, but probably, if he is being honest, not that much. Dooku's death - again not enough to turn him, but as others have mentioned over the years; he wasn't angry, it wasn't heat of the moment. It was pre-meditated. His first cold-blooded murder, and one the Jedi (not knowing the nature of how it transpired) actually congratulate him on. There is some irony in the fact he is killing his Master's master's master, and using Dooku's own Sith saber along with his own Jedi saber to behead him (think Dagobah cave).
    Anakin is arguably sometimes using the dark side to fight from where we start seeing him as a padawan (AOTC), and his fear is eating at him from the moment he has his first Padme nightmare in ROTS (which as Yoda states, is of the dark side). The two major events that leave him open for manipulation (Tusken slaughter, Dooku's death) are just turning points. An Anakin that had done neither of these things, but all other things being equal, would likely never side with Palpatine in his office. It's just how the dark side is written.
    Mace's death is finally one omen too many. He has killed a superior, an important Jedi Master that was just trying to save the Republic. The Jedi won't take him back, Palpatine has become the easiest way forward now. His personal conflict and sense of duty (an extension of the fact he wanted to be a Jedi and a husband) are now intertwined - not joining Palpatine will achieve little from Anakin's pov, another civil war would be yet another threat to Padme's life and the stability of the galaxy. He's not one to run away, Anakin feels he has to fix everything himself, and it is obviously his downfall.


    Btw about ROTS/ROTJ...
    - The "spire duels" main parallel is of course about Anakin's and Luke's mirroring journeys, with Anakin in a reverse-role. Anakin killing Dooku with blue/red, Luke throwing away green and rejecting (quite literally) his father's path.
    - The "lightning scenes" parallel is more about Anakin as a fulcrum. His decision shapes the future of the galaxy twice, rejecting Jedi Master Mace and saving/joining the last surviving Sith (father), and rejecting Sith Master Sidious and saving/joining the last surviving Jedi (son).


    I agree, but Mace doesn't know that. In the novelisation he doesn't even suspect Anakin is about to turn, he implores Anakin it is Anakin's "destiny", but Anakin does nothing to help Mace.


    It's not as big a contradiction as that, Anakin has a destiny, but little of what he does is because he believes this. The future is indeed still in motion, because the Padme visions change, and turn out to just be a self-fulfilling prophecy.


    You make a good point here.
    I can only say that Qui-Gon suggesting Obi-Wan should concentrate on the now is in line with what Yoda teaches Luke in ESB.
    I don't think we are supposed to have a solid or official answer on some of this, Star Wars is so subjective, that's what is fun. But if you have a little suspension of disbelief, it holds together symbolically, even if not literally.
     
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  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
  9. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I agree with a lot of your points.

    I think Mace's anger is what changed his mind. He went in there with one intention -- to arrest. He has no new information after he battles Palpatine. So, it's one of 2 things: 1) his anger changes his view 2) he actually wanted to kill Palpatine all along but didn't because there were other Jedi with him. So, the only other explanation is worse than Mace killing him in anger.

    Of course, he doesn't kill him only because he's angry. (I think that's what people think that's what you or I are saying when we make this argument.) Mace isn't homicidal. It's just that there are 2 different solutions to the Palpatine situation -- arrest or murder. Both seem likely to lead to bad outcomes. Murder just leads to worse outcomes of the 2 because one of those outcomes is Mace betraying his own values -- i.e. what the Jedi stand for. Mace's anger is what shifts the balance from arrest to murder.

    I also agree that everyone in the situation is being hypocritical. Anakin is justified in intervening, but his reasons for intervening are selfish. Mace is intending to break the Jedi code. And, well, of course, Palpatine is being hypocritical!:) The one thing about Palpatine is that he's not rationalizing like the others. He know he's being evil and he's loving every minute of it. [face_devil]

    I agree that Dooku is "too dangerous to be left alive" in multiple senses. Dooku remaining alive is also dangerous to Palpatine in that his death is opening up a spot that Palpatine needs Anakin to fill and, if Anakin had let him live, Dooku could've spilled the beans on Palpatine's master plan.

    I'd add a few thing to what you say here:

    I'm not sure things would be better off if Anakin had acted differently. 1st, since Palpatine was play acting, he may very well have just blasted Mace if Anakin hadn't intervened or he may have sensed Anakin wouldn't have acted and kept blasting Mace. Then, even if Mace did kill Palpatine, the Republic still may have fallen. The Senate is on the side of Palpatine, so they'd most likely turn on the Jedi and that would lead to a civil war, which is actually what Palpatine predicts will happen if they don't wipe out the Jedi quickly (so his justification is actually sort of right in a weird way).

    Also, I'm not sure that Mace's top concern is what's best for the galaxy, or to be more accurate, his definition of what's best for the galaxy is different from what we would immediately think it is. We think what's most important is preserving the Republic. Mace may think that the most important thing in the galaxy is the Jedi order, not the Republic. That's my impression of it, actually. That's why, in my view, he seems willing to suspend the senate and put it under the control of the Jedi. So, again, in my view, Mace might be justified in placing the Jedi order above the Republic but at the same time, other people (for instance Anakin, Yoda "to a dark place this will lead us") could legitimately consider this treasonous behavior either because Mace is willing to disband the Senate for pragmatic reasons or to preserve the Jedi order. Either way, kicking elected officials out of their office or preventing them from fulfilling their duties can legitimately be considered treason.

    Actually, a poster above made a good point that it might have been an error for the Jedi order to tie itself to the Republic long ago since a corrupt government might have Jedi do unjust things or trick them into it. I think this is a good point. However, at the same time, if they're not tied to the Republic, my question is: what would they do? Just sit a meditate? Be vigilantes who combat evil without any connection to the government? And if they are vigilantes, then the Republic would see them as a threat, and I'm not sure that would work out very good either. So either way -- fighting as servants for the Republic or fighting independently of the Republic -- it gets a little ugly.


    I pretty much agree with what you're saying about why Anakin's killing of Mace is different than his murder of Dooku or the Tusken Raiders. Killing Mace means he will be considered an enemy of the Jedi. He won't be accepted back. Plus, he doesn't think too highly of the Jedi. He trust them, they don't trust him, and he doesn't like the idea that they're planning to take over the Senate. Finally, Anakin now believes that Palpatine can save Padme. So, the Jedi won't accept him back and he has a reason not to want to go back. His loyalty is with this guy who can save his wife.

    It is true that on some level he knows Palpatine is evil. He knows Palpatine has tricked him so that he's now stuck in this situation, but this is where Anakin makes his Faustian pact, his deal with the devil. To save his wife, to achieve this selfish quasi-moral goal (as it involves saving a life), Anakin (who is deceived by lies and is nearly psychologically overwhelmed at the time he is forced to decide) allies himself with Palpatine since Palpatine can save his wife. (Of course, if he rejects Palpatine, then Palpatine will just kill him on the spot and if he tries to stop the Temple massacre, the clone troopers will just kill him, so he can act like a hero, but it won't achieve much.) But ultimately, though Anakin makes this decision under severe duress and through a viewpoint distorted by lies, it still Anakin's own decision that aligns Anakin with Palpatine. It's not that the dark side has suddenly seduced him at this moment. He does know enough to understand that Palpatine has done some awful things. Anakin's in a compromised emotional state and he's not sure the Jedi or the senators or anyone else are much better, but he is aware that Palpatine is pretty bad guy. So, he can reject him (which will most likely end with Anakin's death), but he does have that option.

    So, I would agree that at this point, Anakin isn't so far down the path of the dark side that he can't return. (In that way, it is similar to killing the Dooku earlier.) In fact, that's what the next step in Palpatine's plan is for. He gets to Anakin to pledge himself to him and then he marches Anakin over to the temple to do such awful terrible things that he'll be trapped in the dark side. So really, the clone troopers who follow him are really like chaperons who make sure that Anakin goes through with killing the Jedi, and if he tries to stop them, then Anakin dies, and then, so does Padme from Anakin's perspective. She's like his light at the end of the tunnel, and once she's gone, he's just left in darkness.

    Yes, I agree about this too. Anakin seems to think very little about the prophecy. (This is also developed in TCW.) He clearly wasn't think about fulfilling when he sided with Palpatine against the Mace.

    I think some people focus on fulfilling the prophecy in the PT when it's clear that's what the OT is about. We know Anakin fulfills the prophecy in ROTJ. The focus of the PT is on subverting the prophecy. It's Revenge of the Sith for a reason. Anakin has the opportunity to fulfill the prophecy, but because of the Jedi order's missteps, the lies Anakin believes, and Anakin's own personal flaws, Palpatine is able to manipulate Anakin so that he's prevented from acting to fulfill the prophecy when he could have. That's the main storyline of ROTS.

    ROTS is Palpatine's big victory film, which I'm sure leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths as he wins so completely. He's the puppet-master who outsmarts the Jedi and Anakin by pushing them to do questionable things because they have to work within a political system that has laws that can be exploited by a corrupt man like Palpatine. Like, for instance, Palpatine's emergency powers -- if you wait for the Senate to vote to take them away, then Palpatine may have consolidated his power further; if you intervene swiftly as Mace does, then you might be considered a traitor; either way, the Jedi lose. Palpatine keeps putting his adversaries in lose-lose scenarios. It's not that they're dumb. It's that there's no good solution. Same with Anakin. He's been tricked into helping Palpatine kill Mace, partially by Mace's own betrayal of the Jedi code. But what can Anakin do afterwards? -- heroically reject Palpatine and be killed, or ally himself with Palpatine when he's the only guy who can save his wife. Either way, the choices aren't too great.

    So that's what ROTS is: it's the Star Wars version of a tragedy -- honestly, the only blockbuster tragedy I can think of. It's Oedipus, it's Hamlet. The bad guy wins, and the noble but flawed hero suffers greatly. I can see why some people don't like it. It's not your regular "fun" film. But I think it works great as tragedy, and I think it makes the OT stronger because we know how evil the driving force behind the Empire really is, we can sympathize with Vader when he returns to the light side, and we can enjoy it even more when he tosses this really evil mastermind down the reactor shaft to his death. Man does Palpatine have it coming!
     
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  10. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    I disagree with almost everything here. To be fair that comes down to a disagreement as to whether it is Mace's anger that changes the situation. You (and I think others) think it is anger that changes his mind, I think it is the fact that Sidious has shown that he is too dangerous to be kept alive. He has just killed 3 high ranking Jedi knights, and even when apparently disarmed still has other powers up his sleeve. I think Mace knows he is play-acting,that his 'weakness' is for the benefit of Anakin.

    Another point to mention here is the idea that anger in itself is an issue (and hence why his calling Sidious a "Sith disease" is considered out of place)....does anybody think that when Vader lifts the Emperor and throws him down the shaft that his heart is full of happy thoughts? Taking action against another (to kill them) is clearly going to be based upon a level of anger at the behaviour that leads to killing them. Not anger, as in out of control rage, or hatred, but a sense of the wrongness that must be stopped. Had Anakin killed Palpatine at this point, does anybody think it would have been wrong? What would be the difference, then?

    I'm not sure the Senate are on the side of Palpatine.Once it becomes clear that Palpatine was actually head ofthe Separatists as well as of the Republic then I think any general support would rapidly dwindle, and any that would still be on his side need removing from power anyway. The Senate is not the galaxy at large. And....Palpatine's claim that the Jedi's next move will be against the Senate makes no sense. The Jedi have no fight with the Senate. Now that the Sith are revealed they will come after them. So...no, what Palpatine says here is not right.

    Why do you think this? "The oppression of the Sith will never return", is a reference to stopping what occurs (you know, the Empire...the Death Star...the oppression of the Sith).That he speaks of suspending the Senate (and it is only suspending, as an interim measure, as he describes it) makes absolute sense in terms of what you have just argued.....so you appear to agree with him, and then want to paint him in a bad light for having the right idea about the Senate....

    Absolutely. As I've said before. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


    Anakin has no notion of the idea that the Jedi are "planning to take over the Senate" (the lines there are just so....dislocated from the rest of the movie,I don't know how anybody can think Anakin really thins this...). The truth is, Anakin makes his choices purely because of Padmé. That's it.There's no other 'hidden agenda'. "I need him"...it's made abundantly clear in the rumination scenes, in that scene and following when he says he will do anything Sidious asks as long as he helps him to save Padmé.

    Palpatine:"Are you going to kill me?"; Anakin "I would very much like to"

    Anakin has nothing but contempt and anger for what Palpatine has done, is. His only reason for joining him is this alleged power to save Padmé.



    Not just on some level - see above. The choiuce he makes is not quasi-moral.He knows it is wrong. In fact, if he doesn't know it's wrong then there is no pay-off to the Faustian pact. He knows his choice is immoral. He is fully aware that what he has done is the wrong thing. "What have I done?"

    And here again comes the contradiction. Mace is in the wrong because he shows elements of anger in his confrontation with the Sith Lord who has created a war, killed billions of beings, caused untold damage to other lives...all for the sake of his own power, his own desires. Mace is going to go against the Jedi...Mace might turn. But...Anakin can run around in a rage lopping Tuskens into pieces, execute an unarmed man (exactly a mirror of Luke's ROTJ confrontation with Vader) and...he's still not gone far enough to 'go darkside'....


    No. The OT isn't about fulfilling the prophecy. Lucas may have decided he wants it to be about that, but it isn't.
     
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Appreciate the response Darth Nerdling!

    I agree it was an emotion based decision. Years of war, Palpatine right under their noses the whole time rubbing it in the Jedi's faces without them even realising, frustration at Palpatine imposing influence on the Council now becoming complete anger with the reveal, the fact that everything they had done was for nothing because Palpatine was in control from the start and leading them on a wild-goose-chase. Then when they try to take him peacefully he claims he "(is) the Senate", kills three of Mace's allies and then tries to fry Mace with lighting, indicating Palpatine is never truly unarmed.

    Granted, perhaps the confrontation confirmed to Mace just how dangerous Palpatine was, but like you said Mace basically knew that going in. He is taking the quicker but flawed path of killing Palpatine on the spot.


    Good points.


    What if Anakin turned on Palpatine like Mace hoped though? In the novelisation he is trying to get Anakin to fulfill his destiny and kill Sidious, oblivious to the fact Anakin is about to turn.
    Also I think the way the scene is set up if he didn't expect Anakin to intervene Palpatine would have done things differently. The lightning alone is just going to be a stalemate where Mace keeps blocking Imo, Palpatine was counting on Anakin disarming Mace. Hard to say for sure.


    Perhaps. The Senate is heavily corrupted by Palpatine, but it is hard to say what they would do without the polluting influence of Sidious. Surely with the Sith gone it wouldn't be worse than what actually happened? I think without as much of a clouding influence of the dark side it would eventually balance out .


    I would tend to agree with Mace on this though tbh. The Jedi Order is far more noble and crucial to the state of the galaxy than the failing Republic. Plus, it says in the novelisation that Mace passionately loves the Republic. I would agree that he fears the loss of the Jedi Order and Republic though, and this is what clouds his judgement at the crucial moment.


    Yeah. Mace and the Council were already considering arresting Palpatine and temporarily taking control of the Senate before even finding out Palpatine was a Sith.
    I don't necessarily totally fault them for this though, it is pretty recurring in the films that the Jedi sometimes make decisions autonomously, if it is for the good of the galaxy. We've seen it since Obi-Wan first did a mind-trick on a stormtrooper, for the sake of the Jedi's and Rebellion's future. It's a grey area of course, but I think generally the Jedi decision is the most trustworthy.


    Agreed.


    Exactly, well put.


    I like that it isn't really spelled out for the audience in ROTS, but when you have watched it a few times you see all these invisible turning points, and it is quite intentional. Anakin's pledge, the selling of his soul, is quite a fast turn, but there is a lot of gradual progression over the PT that you have to read between the lines to see. Like you say, in Anakin's PT arc at least, Padme's death is the last point-of-no-return.

    Interesting point about the function of the Clones to watch Anakin during the Temple raid. I hadn't thought of it like that.


    He probably views the prophecy as a Jedi lie after he turns.


    Interesting. It would certainly be a shock to a first-time viewer watching 1-6.


    Well said.
    The operatic nature of the film strengthens the other five films for me. ROTS is pretty intense, and coming into ANH is kind of a comedown, it's a bit of a surreal progression. The OT definitely answers some questions set up by the morally grey PT. ROTS just wouldn't be as tragic without that.





    The novelisation indicates Mace thinks he has won when the lighting stops and Palpatine feigns weakness. Mace also mistakes Anakin's fear for Palpatine's fear. I don't think either he or Anakin knew Palpatine was faking when Mace goes for the death-blow.


    I think they are, Palpatine has been gradually making the Senate trust him, and influencing their opinion of the Jedi, making the Jedi look responsible for the war. It doesn't take much for them to believe Palpatine when he declares the Empire.


    The script indicates they want to take control of the Senate and replace the corrupt Senators with Jedi-approved ones. So it is a partial truth.

    On your other point about Anakin turning solely to save Padme - it is his number one motive, but this quest conveniently aligns with his opinion on the state of the galaxy and what he has started to believe is ultimately better for order. You are oversimplifying.
     
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  12. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Darth Nerdling

    Very well put together and a thought provoking and interesting read.

    I have read your post over a few times over the last week or so, and mulled it over. Your conclusions really didn't resonate with me... Which is strange as you and I are usually on the same page, at least with Star Wars...


    Here is where I think my biggest disagreement is. I feel that just because Mace fears for the future of the Jedi Order, this doesn't mean he isn't loyal to the Republic, the Senate etc etc...

    Mace's fear that there is a plot to destroy the Jedi, and the possibility that Palpatine is at the center of it is not just some off the cuff remark. Remember, while the Jedi don't know every detail like we do, we see they are very suspicious of Palpatine and how he has retained power. The whole reason that Mace sends Anakin to Palpatine with the information about Obi Wan engaging Grievous was to see if Palpatine would drop a hint as to what his intentions were going to be once Grievous was destroyed.

    I don't think it's beyond reason that in the context of that specific moment, that Mace would express his concerns specifically about the Jedi Order. However, this to me, doesn't automatically mean that Mace has forgotten his allegiance to the Republic. We can't expect the Jedi to not think about self-preservation.

    Your real world Analogy doesn't fit for me, because the Russian Orthodox Church isn't charged with protecting Russia, like the Jedi are charged with protecting the Republic. Also once again, just because Mace fears for the future of the Jedi Order, doesn't mean that he also isn't thinking in the best interests of the Republic. Again, the Jedi were and are suspicious of Palpatine well before Mace's comments in the meeting. If someone is thinking about destroying the Jedi, then it's safe to assume that they have sinister thoughts about the Republic as well.

    Also, it is Ki Adi that brings up the thought of removing Palpatine from office. Mace simply builds off that thought, and his thought process is not to overthrow the Senate (as you suggest) but to take the spot as Chancellor as Mace says:

    "The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition. "

    To me there is no hint here of the Mace talking about disbanding, or dissolving the Senate, or overthrowing a democratically elected body. To me he is talking about the Council having to take over the duties of the Chancellor so that a peaceful transition from Chancellor Palpatine to the next Chancellor can be maintained. Thus suggesting a vote, in-keeping with Democracy.

    I think in the end the word traitor, just like the real world, is always judged by history and those that write it...

    Look at the USA, George Washington, Ben Franklin, Andrew Jackson, etc etc were considered traitors. During WW2 the Nazi's considered many of the SS Officers that conspired to kill Hitler as traitors, but now, there is a memorial to their memory.

    If things had transpired differently, and the Jedi arrested Palpatine, presented their evidence to the courts, oversaw the peaceful transition from Palpatine to a new Chancellor, would they be considered traitors? Would the overall history of the Republic judge them as traitors? Surely there would be some corners that would feel that way, surely there would be worry and dissension in the Senate to the thought of the Jedi taking over said body, this is why Yoda stresses his warning. While the Jedi are acting in the best interest of not only themselves, but the Republic (which I feel is part of the discussion they are having), there would be some in the Senate/Republic that would be highly suspicious of their motives.



    Again, there is nothing wrong with Mace saying this. There is nothing wrong with Mace fearing for the Order when he senses a plot. It doesn't mean that he is putting the Order above the Republic or Senate, but, to me, the understanding is that this is the straw the breaks the camels back for Mace, as the Jedi are already suspicious of Palpatine and his power well before Mace senses or at least brings to light his fears of a plot. I don't think we should forget about everything else we see the Jedi say about Palpatine, when it comes to Mace's words.

    That's why I really disagree with your conclusions, because I feel your conclusions don't mix in the already established suspicions the Jedi have of Palpatine,

    Again I disagree. Palpatine tries to blur the lines between the Sith and Jedi, but, Anakin rebuffs him, which leads Palpatine to come back around to the issue of living forever. This is shown in the Opera scene. Not that isn't to say that Palpatine hasn't planted the seeds of doubt of what the Council wants and how they are treating him, but, from the Opera Scene it is clear that Anakin recognizes there are distinctions between the Jedi and Sith.

    Again, I disagree that Mace is just primarily worried about the survival of the Jedi. ROTS as a movie shows us the Jedi are suspicious of Palpatine, Mace's worries are part of that. Don't forget, they ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine before Mace's thoughts about a plot.

    Just can't get onboard with this analogy. The Church in this example is not tasked with protecting the country of Russia. However, for the sake of discussion, lets say the Church was in charge of protecting Russia and it's people as a military/police force. If they were seeing Putin consolidating power as Palpatine did, than get intelligece that he was planning on moving against the Church, well than it is not beyond a reasonable conclusion that Putin was doing this as part of his overall plan to take over Russia.

    In the GFFA, anyone wanting to rule the Republic would have to go through the Jedi. So Mace's words, to me, aren't him only caring about the Jedi and nothng else, but, the simple reality that Palpatine, who has consolidated his political power, is plotting to go beyond that and in doing so will have to get rid of the Jedi.

    Again, just don't agree. I think it is setup in the movie that the Jedi, including Mace are trying to preserve and save the Republic, that part of that is ensuring the survival of the Jedi and getting to the bottom of the plot. The Jedi can't help the Republic if they are all dead correct?

    Again, if everything worked out as how the Jedi wanted it too, would history have deemed them traitors? Are they traitors because their actions are the result of traitorous behavior of Palpatine? Are the founding fathers truly traitors?


    Here is where I sometimes think too much is read into the PT. Surely there are grey areas that Lucas wanted to portray. However, I have to go back to what Lucas has said so many times. He wanted to create a modern myth for young people, not for jaded adults that might look at the movies with their baggage.

    So it's not too far fetched to think that to Lucas, the Jedi and their actions are supposed to be understood as pure (at least as pure as they can be), because that's how young people (kids) would see them. Adults with years of being jaded and becoming entrenched in our opinions on life might read too much into the Jedi...?