Mace Windu : A Way Out or Destined To Fall?

"This is where he makes the pact with the devil, this is the very faustian pact of trying to do something that he shouldnt be doing, you know, he's gone over the line - the killing of Mace, he was trying to stop him from killing Palpatine which in essence was the right thing to do, he didnt realise that Palpatine was going to kill him so up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he realises by having Mace be dead he's crossed over the line and he sort of succumbs and says 'yes', i'll do anything you ask if you allow me to keep my wife alive" - GL

Notice how this is all based on what happens after the first lightning attack by Sidious.

So if it was the right thing to arrest him after that how can Mace going in for the kill be good.

Granted, Anakin's action is wrong too. he shouldnt have attacked Mace. But had mace not gone in for the kill then Anakin wouldnt have done that.

he didnt realise that Palpatine was going to kill him so up to that point he was trying to do the right thing

UP TO THAT POINT

Anakin was doing the right thing. Until he attacks Maces. Thats when he too crosses the line. But that doesnt make Mace right in his actions.

Just read the line again:

he was trying to stop him from killing Palpatine which in essence was the right thing to do

Mace was trying to kill Sidious after the first lightning. Therefore, if that is in essence the right thing to do then Mace going in for the kill is wrong.

he didnt realise that Palpatine was going to kill him so up to that point he was trying to do the right thing

Up to that point he was trying to do the right thing. So basically when he attacks Mace he does the wrong thing -but that doesnt make Mace right.

They both ended up doing the wrong thing.

 

Anakin walks in after Mace has kicked Palpatine and backed him into a corner. Anakin stops just as Mace has Palpatine boxed in. When Mace speaks it's to say that Palpatine's under arrest.

 

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[b]Anakin walks in after Mace has kicked Palpatine and backed him into a corner. Anakin stops just as Mace has Palpatine boxed in. When Mace speaks it's to say that Palpatine's under arrest.[/b]
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Darth Sinister when is Anakin suppose to fulfill the prophecy if its wrong to kill a SITH lord. I dont understand that. I know one of your quotes was "Luke couldnt kill the EMPEREROR but he could make Anakin reflect on his own life and kill him." Just asking[face_confused]

 

I'll pop back in only to say this:

No one said that it's wrong to kill a Sith Lord. We're saying that it's wrong to MURDER a Sith Lord. We all agree that killing someone in self defense or in the defense of others is acceptable. If you argue that killing Palpatine was in defense of others, I'd disagree given that at the moment he posed no clear immediate threat to anyone (from the pov of the two men standing in the room with him).

Did Palpatine need to die? Yes. But should he murdered, thereby making his murder no better than him? No. History is rife with examples of entire nations "vanquishing evil" without trial or due process.

 

Because no one is arguing that it is wrong to kill a Sith Lord per se. Rather, some of us have been arguing that Lucas and the Jedi consider it wrong to murder a Sith Lord - the difference being that it is not murder when you act in self-defense or when a criminal has been tried and found guilty.

It's the difference between buying a gun and shooting your neighbor because you think he killed your sister versus having him arrested, tried in court, and executed.

BTW, THEFORCEROCKS, my handle came about because I like listening to beautiful, sad music (like My DyING BRIDE), and I often choose to use words like 'sorrow' and 'anguish' in handles or personal email addresses. When I opened a hotmail account, 'anguish@hotmail.com' was already taken. Thus, 'hotanguish@hotmail.com' and thus 'hotanguish' as my handle here. In retrospect it was a bad choice because too many people whom I have emailed have rejected my emails by accident thinking that they were porn SPAM emails.

 

My opinion is that when possible a Jedi should act with compassion and selflessness.

Killing someone should be the very last option. Kenobi had to kill Maul and Grievous for example.

Despite the dangers that Sidious still possessed, Mace had other options and he should have explored those first before going in for the kill.

Thats my opinion on the matter because thats how I see the perfect Jedi.

Mace Windu must have known that Sidious wouldnt give up his power. Anakin said that himself. Surely Mace could see that Sidious would do everything he could to resist arrest. Therefore Mace either thought that he would have to kill him from the start or he would be able to arrest him despite this problem. I think its the latter. Yet when Mace had the chance to work with Anakin and attempt to arrest Sidious he took the easier option and went in for the kill instead.

Lucas as said it himself:

-A Jedi should love everyone, even their enemies.

-Mace was doing the right thing in arresting him but the lightning changed his mind.

-Anakin was trying to stop Mace from killing him which in essence was the right thing to do.

Killing a Sith isnt always wrong. But it depends on the situation, circumstances and motivation. I dont just mean morally here, also talking about it strategically.

In my opinion, Mace Windu was wrong on both fronts. Morally, it wasnt the Jedi way. Strategically it lead to his death and Anakin's turn.

Mace Windu had a way out. More importantly, so did Anakin.

 

I don't think Mace had a way out. However, I don't think he was destined to fall, either. It was Anakin's choice to side with Sidious that doomed him, a choice that Sidious had carefully paved the way for.

 

Question, before GL changed the Mace/Sids duel how was Mace supposed to go out or was it the same way with Anakin just watching?

 

It was the same way. Originally, when Mace had Palpatine down, Palpatine revealed to Ankakin he was Plagueis' apprentice and would tell Anakin the secret to saving Padme.

 

Exactly...

To say that Mace was destined to fall is to say that Anakin was destined to betray the Jedi Order no matter what.

Since Mace was obviously destined to defeat Sidious(this forum argues against "luck").....his fall was solely on Anakin's shoulders. Anakin could have joined with him to destroy Sidious and complete his destiny or chosen plan B....and he chose plan B

 

Killing someone should be the very last option. Kenobi had to kill Maul and Grievous for example.


Ok so what was Qui-Gon doing....trying to give him a close shave??

NO!

He was trying to kill him.

Jedi Kill Sith and Sith kill Jedi....period.

The only exception is with Luke when he says, "I cant kill my own father".

What does Obi-Wan say?

"Then the emperor has already won...you were our only hope"

He WANTS him to kill his father.

Not to mention Yoda's comments about "DESTROY the sith, we must"

What did you get out of that?

Because it sounds to me like he intends on putting Sids and Vader in a couple of bodybags.

Once again MS, say it with me....

JEDI KILL SITH AND SITH KILL JEDI.....

PERIOD.

 

You dare speak up against the almighty Shaitan?! Fool!

Qui Gon, had he defeated my child Maul, would have spared him his life had he been able to. Qui Gon was in battle, if he backed off my son would have killed him in seconds and feasted upon him.

My new resident of hell, Windu, had another option, but he couldnt resist temptation.

"At last the Jedi are no more!"

Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha

 

But Anakin wouldn't have had a saber since Palps snatched it from him in the beginning and it was kicked away by Mace right?

 

In the original scene, Anakin's standing near Palpatine's desk when the Jedi Posse enter with their sabers drawn and ignited. Mace tells Anakin to stand with them, because they're going to arrest the Chancellor. They know that he is a Sith Lord. Anakin doesn't do anything. Palpatine uses the Force to snatch Anakin's saber and use it to attack the Jedi. Most of the fight is still the same as we see it now, save for the closeups of the Lightsaber that are different and the blade color. The duel ends minus Mace's kick into Palpatine's face. He just somehow disarms him. Mace moves in for the kill, after the Lightning, but Anakin calls his saber to his hand and attacks the Korun Jedi Master. Mace dies and Anakin kneels before Palpatine, who annoits him as Darth Vader.

Though Shaitan and I rarely agree, it is true, the Jedi do not always kill the Sith. They only restort to killing them if the situation becomes dire enough to do so. Obi-wan had no choice when he killed Maul. Qui-gon was dead and they could not capture Maul. Obi-wan killed him in defense of his life, though it left them with questions. Remember, he and Qui-gon were told that they must draw out Maul to determine if he is a Sith or not. It's implied that they must capture him, so that he could be interrogated. Anakin did have a choice and he chose poorly. Dooku was defeated and unable to defend himself. Anakin even says that he's wrong for killing Dooku, but did it anyway out of vengence. Now, if the situation was such where Anakin had no choice but to kill him, it wouldn't have been such a bad thing. But Anakin did have a choice and he made it for all the wrong reasons. Yoda only talks of killing the Sith, because they cannot be captured. Nor will it matter at this point. What matters is destroying them. Yoda fails and Obi-wan cannot kill an unarmed and helpless man. But neither will he save him, which is why he walks away with the saber. The fire will take care of it.

Mace was doing right by arresting Palpatine, because it is the Jedi way and within the Republic's constitution. But Palpatine forced Mace into a situation where he would have to kill him. Thus it becomes wrong, only because it sends Anakin the wrong message. Mace is still correct for killing Palpatine, but he did not think about the consequences it would have on the boy or the Jedi Order.

 

hmmm

But when it's all said and done Sinister, dont you think Mace did the right thing in trying to kill the Chancellor???

 

It's a crap shoot, really. On the one hand, it would've been good as it would've gotten Palpatine out of office for good. It would've made it easier to prove that Palpatine was a Sith and that he was the mastermind of everything. But then there's the drawbacks. Anakin might've turned anyway. The Republic Senate might turn on the Jedi anyway.

In the end, I think it would've been good had Anakin stayed in the Temple. It's really hard to say. But I can see it being used as a basis for "Star Wars-Infinities: Revenge Of The Sith."

 

Why should Mace be expected to pay attention to Anakin's thought process, while he was fighting Palpatine? This doesn't make sense to me. It seems as if you're trying to blame Mace for Anakin's decision. And that doesn't feel right.

 

Interesting. Had Mace taken this route, do you really think Anakin's choice would have been different?

I think D-S is suggesting Mace should have tried to leverage Anakin's role as the Chosen One or to get to the bottom of his confusion (which could reveal his Shatterpoint--the attachment to Padme, and turn the tables on Palpatine's plan). I don't believe it would have been possible though myself. Anakin's state of mind at that point was already almost too far over the edge.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Mace was too busy dealing with his emotions regarding Palpatine and possibly, Anakin. He can't be fully responsible for whatever Anakin is thinking. Unless Anakin had decided to confide in him. And I don't recall that ever happening.

Granted, I don't admire the Jedi Council's handling of Anakin in ROTS, but I don't buy that Mace should accept blame for what finally Anakin's actions in Palpatine's office.

 

How about because Jedi are supposed to be compassionate and Anakin is clearly in pain and feeling conflicted? How about because Anakin happens to be right about how Mace should handle Sidious (even though his motivations are a mixture of good and selfish ones)? How about because the Prophecy says that the Chosen One will destroy the Sith not Mace Windu?

Not a single person on this thread has ever tried to blame Mace for Anakin's wrong decision. What some people have tried to say is that Mace is to blame for his own wrong decisions and that some of these decisions created an environment conducive to Anakin making very bad decisions.

The concepts are quite different.

For example, if I abuse a child who then grows up to be a serial killer, I am not directly to blame for this child's victims. However, I am to blame for abusing the child, and furthermore I share somewhat in the guilt of the murders that the child commits because my actions have helped create the monster that this child has become.

Another example is Iago from Shakespeare's Othello. Iago is not to blame for Othello's murdering Desdemona. However, he certainly is to blame for the poisonous lies that he told Othello which then resulted in the murder and so he shares some of the guilt while not being directly responsible and not excusing Othello for his loathsome deeds.

Likewise, it can be argued and has been argued on this thread that Mace acted in certain ways that influenced for the worse Anakin's fateful decisions. Thus, while not absolving Anakin, such analysis helps us understand what went wrong in the process and lets us speculate on how Mace may have found a way out of the situation.

 

Not a single person on this thread has ever tried to blame Mace for Anakin's wrong decision. What some people have tried to say is that Mace is to blame for his own wrong decisions and that some of these decisions created an environment conducive to Anakin making very bad decisions.


OMG!!

Now I've heard it all.

Whether you know it or not....YOU JUST BLAMED HIM AGAIN.

 

Tell me about it!

What about the Jedi Council? Or Obi-Wan Kenobi? Are you trying to say that they are not responsible for creating an environment conducive to Anakin making bad decisions? And that ONLY Mace is responsible?

 

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

I blame Anakin for one thing and I blame Mace for something else. Two different people - two different sets of choices - two different responsibilities.

There IS a distinction. Whether you know it or not...

 

Did I SAY that only Mace had a hand in the way Anakin turned out? NO.

Of course I think the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan played a role in Anakin's choices. There were many mistakes made by the Jedi Council and many made by Obi-Wan in how they handled Anakin. Examining where they failed and analyzing the effects in no way absolves Anakin - it's just honest and constructive analysis for purposes of learning lessons from the story.

I don't put any of the Jedi on a pedestal. While they are on the whole a good and noble order, they are fallible just the same as any other group of people. Mace Windu is no exception.

 

If Mace had paid better attention to Anakin, he could've sensed that the turmoil was too great for one such as Anakin. By focusing on the boy, he could've sensed what was wrong and be at least prepared for anything. So intent was he on Palpatine, that he failed to properly sense Anakin's fear and anger and hate. Had he been more focused, he could've sensed Anakin's betrayal and taken steps to avoid losing his life.