Lit Mace Windu: Jedi fool?

In chapter 8 of Stover's ROTS Mace Windu makes a pretty astute observation about Anakin, Obi-Wan and the Chancellor while using his shatterpoint vision:

"Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in the balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead. The balance was already so delicate that he could not guess the outcome of any given shift: the slightest tip in any direction would generate chaotic oscillation."

I know Force visions are hard to read and all but Windu said himself "the dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor...which mean you would probably want Anakin's lever to fall on the Obi-Wan side. But despite this revelation Windu agrees to have Anakin shadow the Chancellor, giving Palpatine more than enough time to increase his influence on him, and also agrees to send Obi-Wan across the galaxy and split up the "ultimate team". The only smart decision Windu makes is to have Anakin stay at the temple because he suspects that his loyalty is in question.

He probably wouldn't have been able to prevent Order 66 but can we all agree that Mace Windu messed up bigger than Obi-Wan or Yoda ever did?

Mod Edit: Opening up with a quote from one a novel makes this a Lit Thread. ~Sx3

 

You have to remember the second part of that observation: the balance was already so delicate Windu couldn't guess what the outcome would be to any given action. That delicacy is not hard to imagine leading to a certain paralysis. And the decision to put Anakin with the Chancellor necessarily would not have been his alone: Obi-Wan says the Council is asking, so Mace might have had a dissenting view and been overridden. I also headcanon it that because the Dark Side is clouding the Force, the Jedi themselves, so dependent on the Force for guidance, are similarly stymied in their decisionmaking. God knows groups, even seemingly hypercompetent groups like intelligence organisations, often make very bad decisions because of how group psychology works. This would seem to be one of them.

(And in passing, Windu having Anakin stay at the temple was a poor decision in retrospect. Had Palpatine gone to kickass mode on four Jedi when Windu had made no threatening move against Palpatine, Anakin might not have been persuaded to stop Windu.)

 

Okay it's true he MAY have been overridden by the rest of the Council, but what about the decision to send Obi-Wan to kill Greivous? In that moment alone he (and the rest of the Council) both insulted Anakin and sent the only Jedi who keeps him level-headed to the other side of the galaxy. Reminder I am specifically speaking of Mace Windu because unlike the other Jedi he could see the delicate balance that was surrounding Anakin. The best thing he could have done would have been to get ANakin out of the Chancellors vicinity and sent him off with Obi-Wan for another tour of duty.

 

Mace was a cranky old man in general.

 

Like I said, groupthink - combined with the Emperor's manipulation of the situation. Palpatine says he wants Anakin to go -- which the Council is inclined to think highly suspect because they don't trust Palpatine and they resent the attempt he's making at trying to control them, specifically that Palpatine insists Anakin is to be put on the Council as the Emperor's representative. Palpatine's suggestion all but guarantees the Council won't send Anakin if only out of pique.

But also remember by this point the Council has already decided it wants to use Anakin to spy on the Chancellor -- though that assignment, per Obi-Wan, is not to be on the "public record", as it were. Matthew Stover's book makes a nice "between the lines" attempt at explaining the situation, all but confirming that the "discussion" about who is to go after Grievous is all a show and that the decision has already been made. One could almost imply that just from watching ROTS, without resorting to the book, since Obi-Wan in the next scene explicitly says the Council is asking Anakin to become their spy when we've not seen any dialogue to that effect. The Council uses Obi-Wan to try and explain it to Anakin because they know he's unlikely to take it kindly coming from either Yoda or Mace.

Anakin's the closest Jedi they have to the Chancellor, and he's Palpatine's representative on the Jedi Council, which in the Council's view makes him the best option they have to use as a spy. It's not the ideal choice, of course, but they don't really have a lot of others. By this stage the Jedi are getting desperate to find the Sith, and they're also worried about the secular changes Palpatine has planned for the Jedi, entirely independent of their concerns about the Sith. Until Anakin tells Mace, the Council does not think Palpatine is the Sith Lord. To them, he's another politician -- a very successful one and one that's already fundamentally changed the makeup of the Republic, one who is growing ever more powerful: the perfect lever by which a Sith Lord could move the world or act against the Jedi. You have to remember that until Anakin says so, the Council has no idea that Anakin is consorting with a Sith. They think Palpatine is powerful in a secular way but not a Force-sensitive. The Dark Side surrounding the Chancellor only indicates the Sith have some involvement in the situation, not that Anakin is in danger of falling to the Dark Side or that Palpatine is the Sith Lord they've been looking for. Hindsight is always 20-20.

 

All of the Jedi were indecisive, clueless idiots.

 

So your saying Palpatine used reverse psychology to get Obi-Wab shipped off to Utapau?

 

This is what I firmly believe. The Council think they are getting one-up on Palpatine yet they are doing exactly what he wants. So Anakin is left with Palpatine, and away from Obi-Wan, where he is more vulnerable. On top of that, the Council reject Anakin again, and the only one who appears to believe in him is Palpatine. The irony is Palaptine doesn't even want Anakin to go.

 

I completely believe that this is what happened in ROTS.

 

Yoda holds the title of cranky old person that is set in his ways for 8 centuries. Mace is just brooding.

 

Actually I think the quoted passage speaks of a certain wisdom in Mace given that he sees the potential for chaos "in any direction." The idea of a duality damning Anakin either way is a pretty good summation of his life. As far back as TPM you could say he was a similar pivot point in regards to Watto and Qui-Gon. Both were father figures in their way, both offered Anakin a means of living, and both (one wittingly, one unwittingly) demanded that Anakin's life eventually be defined by tragedy, whether it's in the form of literal slavery or the more metaphorical chains of the Jedi life that took Anakin away from his only family and demanded that he fit into their Chosen One role. Later his capacity to love is warped when he's caught between the past truth of losing Shmi and the future possibility of losing Padme. If Mace is foolish, perhaps it's not because he split up the dream team, but because he fails to realize the degree that additional dualities have already pushed Anakin onto the tragic paths of chaos even before Obi-Wan/Palpatine reaches its tipping point.

 

How so?

 

The Council was not a dictatorship, I am sure that It's not what Windu/Yoda thought, it's a join effort..The whole council was foolish, not just mace..I would say Mace Windu: Victim of plot.

 

But Windu alone had this vision about the coming events in motion, so because he didn't inform the Council the blame rests more significantly on his shoulders. He for some reason a fan of keeping secrets from other Jedi:

"Of the whole Council, only Yoda and myself know how deep this actually goes. And now you. I have decided to share this with you because you are in the best situation to watch Anakin. Watch him. Nothing more."
-Mace Windu to Obi-Wan when referring to the suspicions of a Sith Lord in the senate.

 

And?? The fault falls on Mace, Yoda and Obi-wan then...if not the whole council..

 

Not to belabour the point, but that depends on whether you're willing to consider Stover's novel as canon. Pretty well all of the EU, which includes that novelisation, depends on various authors' interpretation of events - some of which are a bit more reliable than others. And let's be clear I like Stover's book. In many ways it turns out better than the film. But it also felt itself necessary to tie into other EU works -- Labyrinth of Evil being one of them. And indeed the whole concept of Windu being able to sense shatterpoints in the Force comes wholly from Stover's novel Shatterpoint. It isn't ever referred to onscreen. One can debate Stover's assertions that he puts into Windu's mouth -- that's fine. But it's also probably something that belongs in the EU form, not necessarily the PT forum as such. IMHO.

 

I agree...Like I said earlier, Mace was a victim of plot, nothing else.

 

I'm confused. Didn't the suspicions of a Sith Lord in the senate start with Obi-Wan in the first place, because of what Dooku told him on Geonosis?

 

I've always wondered, why would Dooku even say that??

 

From memory (it's been a while since I read the book) that passage is discussing events in Labyrinth of Evil, that Mace Windu and a small cadre of (doomed) clonetroopers had traced a passage back from the castle where Dooku and Sidious met to the basements of 500 Republica, i.e. Palpatine's residence (along with a lot of other influential government types). From that Mace and the others-- in the book -- concluded that the Sith Lord was somewhere in the highest levels of government, possibly in Palpatine's inner circle. And tht's why Mace and Yoda only know "how deep this goes".

This is part of the problem that arises when we freely mix EU with what's on screen, and a pretty good reason for Uncle George to keep saying "the EU is basically a parallel universe to my films; I don't take them into account." Name of Coruscant notwithstanding.

 

Possibly misdirection, reverse psychology like Palpatine used on the Council to send Obi-Wan away? Obi-Wan immediately dismisses Dooku's assertion, and Yoda points out that "lies, greedy mistrust" are Dooku's ways now. I took from that that Dooku's assertion had been discarded because the Jedi didn't believe he was telling the truth.

 

The best lies are built on truths. The Senate had fallen under the influence of a Sith Lord, the lie is that in joining Dooku you would be working against that Sith Lord, when in fact you would be joining them. It's a deal with the devil. One Kenobi is smart enough not to fall for. One of the only smart things the Jedi do during the PT.

 

If that was an intentional pun, well played sir.

 

I'm afraid I cannot take credit for planning that

 

I think the Sith were actively trying to do anything to create dissention and paranoia among the Jedi. Originally they had planned to do it with Maul picking off Jedi one by one, and now they go to planting suspicion among the Jedi that they are serving a Senate controlled by the Sith.