Lit Mace Windu: Jedi fool?

This is some interesting spin.

He never hid his true feelings about about Skywalker from anyone but Anakin, and I'm pretty sure that Anakin got the point. The ROTS novel talks about how no one on the Council had ever been comfortable with Skywalker's relationship to Palpatine and how it had been discussed multiple times(page 145).

"It's very dangerous putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him" - Mace Windu to Obi-Wan & Yoda. So how is that hiding his true feelings about Anakin from the rest of the Jedi? Mace never even wanted to train Anakin in the first place, and was upfront about that to Anakin's face.

As for him plotting to overthrow the galactic government, thats kinda like giving Palpatine a free pass and pretending that Mace was responsible for the billions of deaths caused by The Clone Wars. The Jedi needed to remove Palpatine, and moved to do so with every intention of turning the goverment back over to the Senate. Just because Palpatine did something incredibly evil legally, and Mace tried to do good illegally, doesn't make Mace Windu dishonest.

 

As stupid as it was in hindsight I was one of those people lol. I thought I was sooo clever. I thought GL couldn't possibly have made it sooo obvious. That maybe Palpatine was Sidious' last apprentice or brother who betrays him.

 

Cause no business has ever involved themselves in a risky financial move that, if it backfires, would bankrupt the company and force it out of business or need a bailout right? What manuevers did Palpatine do to become Chancellor? He was nominated to be a candidate. The other candidates could just as easily been elected Chancellor. Plus, it's just as logical to say that a politican whose homeworld is currently occupied and who is frustrated at the lack of action by the Senate, would want to become Chancellor so that he could ensure something was done for his homeworld. See no nefarious motives needed.

I'll refer you to Arawn_Fenn's post for answers to your other points. He did a good job addressing them.

 

Damn right. And he still could be.

 

Just because we don't know what they have to gain doesn't mean they don't have something to gain. Which is more likely, that the Trade Federation invades Naboo for no reason whatsever or they invade Naboo to gain something (whatever it is)?

The Kaminoans say that the army is for the Republic. Why would a seperatist movement want the entity that they wish to secede from to have an army that could be used to try and stop their attempt to secede?

Palpatine or Sidious? You're also assuming that the Jedi didn't question them. There's no evidence that they did or did not question them. Not to mention that the Neimoidians don't know Palpatine is Sidious. So what knowledge could they provide that the Jedi don't already know?

Again, you're assuming they conducted no investigation.

If they're goal was to secede from the Republic, and they wanted to do it militarily, why would you want to help create an army for your opponent as opposed to just attacking the defenseless Republic?

So you're saying that the Jedi should just say, "Palpatine's a Sith Lord! Crap, the only evidence we have is the word of a immature Jedi who keeps throwing temper tantrums. Guess we can't do anything and have to leave him in power. You win this round Sidious! (shakes hand in air)" Did I get that right?

 

By that logic there can be no such thing as a plot hole and characters can never act out of character because maybe there's an explanation that they just forgot to put in the movie. But I wasn't saying there was no reason, I was just asking if there is one in any EU sources because it doesn't really come across in the movie.

Maybe the Separatists were going to use the army for themselves and just lied to the Kaminoans about who it was for. Or maybe the Separatists wanted the Republic to use the army because the clones were programmed with a secret command prompt to murder all the Jedi.

If the Jedi didn't even know Sidious's name until Dooku told it to them ten years later, they probably didn't do too thorough of an investigation. Did no one think to check the Neimoidians' browsing history to see they'd been chatting with a Sith Lord?

The Jedi should have realized that the Separatists were just a smokescreen for the Sith's true intentions. What the Separatists wanted was irrelevant; they should have been more focused on how the war would benefit the Sith.

If they wanted to arrest him and have him stand trial, they probably should have gathered enough evidence to arrest him first. Or if they were going to go outside the law and take him into Jedi custody, they probably should have sent like a SWAT team and surrounded the entire building and maybe brought the Chosen One along instead of just having four guys all stand together in a cramped little room and ask him if he wanted to come with them please, maybe. Basically anything other than what they did would have been a better plan.

 

_Catherine_
Great reply - just have to say that the thought of checking the Neimoidians' browsing history made me chuckle. It's a good point, but my mind went to the gutter for a minute. Who knows what those nutty dudes are into...

 

_Catherine_ "The Jedi should have realized that the Separatists were just a smokescreen for the Sith's true intentions. What the Separatists wanted was irrelevant; they should have been more focused on how the war would benefit the Sith"

They do. In ROTS Mace WIndu says "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi," The war is dragging on and the Republic is essentially winning, but the Sith have not revealed themselves and quality of life in the galaxy has dropped dramatically, by now they begin to realize it's not a clear cut war but more of a chess game.

 

Duros.

 

And if the Jedi, investigators, and prosecution watched The Phantom Menace on DVD and Blu-Ray, I'd agree with you... which is the only way they'd know that he orchestrated the blockade of Naboo. Respectfully, you're failing to separate the proprietary knowledge you have of Sidious as a member of the audience which the characters don't share. And as has been pointed out, Palpatine being in a position of political advantage in no way proves his guilt.

 

Being in political power doesn't automatically prove his guilt -- but it should have made him a top suspect. Once again the spectre of the Jedi not actually investigating anything comes into play. They didn't show any signs of actually suspecting Palpatine until half-way through ROTS, 15 years too late to start.

Purely looking at the evidence the in-universe characters had, Palpatine stood to benefit and used the crisis to get elected Chancellor. Reason #1 to suspect Palpatine. HE is the one who slyly proposed the vote of no-confidence -- Padme knows this. It happened to his home planet -- which he was not exactly outraged about or demanding a counter-invasion in public appearance. Hardly what you would expect of a senator when his planet is attacked. Further, once he is in power he grabs more and more power at every turn and, forgive me if I'm wrong but he is the one pushing for the clone army, is he not? Padme is its opponent but who is its champion? I don't think we're ever told but it's a fair bet this only happen if the chancellor wants it. Then, once again, in AOTC. we have the senator from Naboo almost being killed because she opposes the army.

In TPM we have a blockade, invasion, and reapearance of the Sith after 1000 years all on Naboo. In AOTC we have the attempted assassination of another Naboobian senator trying to stop the creation of a clone army. With thousands of star systems in the Republic, why does Naboo keep popping up over and over? Reason #2 to suspect Palpatine. The fact that almost every event involving the conspiracy rotates around Naboo means the power structure there should be investigated, which once again points back at Palpatine as a suspect. Perhaps Palpatine shouldn't have "pooped where he ate" so to speak and should have picked on another planet, but then he wouldn't have been able to use sympathy to get elected chancellor in the first place.

Right there, without any special knowledge we have as viewers, the Jedi have two very compelling reasons to suspect Palpatine -- the Naboo nexus of all events, and Palpatine's rise to power. FAIL: JEDI

Even worse, once the secret army nobody ordered 10 years ago is discovered, the idiotic Jedi just accept it and move on without thinking about the trojan horse they've accepted. Army nobody ordered 10 years ago + Chancellor pushing for creation of an army = X, Jedi... Cue "syncopated clock". Another huge smoking gun the Jedi don't even think of investigating. We have a hidden army and a guy who wants an army, what a coincidence, let's not look into it at all! What colossal idiots. Reason #3 to suspect Palpatine.

Hmm, a lot of things are starting to point at Palpatine. Suspicious, isn't it? Should we look into it? Nah.

Surveil him, monitor his movements. You will find him meeting with Maul and Dooku and going to abandoned parts of Coruscant. Monitor his communications and you will see him communicating often with his minions. Hmm, how much traffic could there possibly be originating from Coruscant destined for the Nemoidians and the rest of the Separatists? Look into his known associates such as Hego Demask and you will see he's not quite the Mr. Rogers he presents himself as.

Since he is a prime suspect, do a midichlorian count and it's game over. Remember throwaway plot device? It would have been useful if you're looking for a Sith Lord.



Most importantly, judge him by what he does not what he says and they would have suspected him much sooner.

 

Businesses don't usually invade planets and build armies.

You wouldn't call orchestrating a vote of no confidence in Vallorum a maneuver?

It's clear people just want to defend the ludicrous events of the film, logic be damned, so no point arguing.

 

Once again "didn't see it, didn't happen" comes into play. By this logic nobody in the saga ever goes to the bathroom. Which explains why Yoda is so green, I guess, not so much with the others...

Of course, in this case you can't even rely on the same old fallacy, because they say outright they've been looking for Sidious and a significant portion of AOTC is devoted to an investigation.

Rewriting the story to make a position work means that the position isn't valid with respect to the actual story.

Probably because of the whole having pledged to defend the Republic thing.

By this logic people like Rudy Giuliani are 9/11 suspects. WHY CAN'T PEOPLE SEE THE TRUTH THEY ARE SUCH IDIOTS

Truly, someone getting something they want is such a statistically rare occurrence that it must be viewed with suspicion. The best part is that this imaginary rule only applies to Palpatine. Zing!!

 

And once again, you fail to recognize that the state of the investigation, or what the Jedi actually know, from film to film is advanced little or not at all. It's called "logic". Therefore, by the non-movement of the case between films, either they are completely inept or they didn't investigate. Your choice, it makes them equally idiotic.

Further, the plot of AOTC is a sequence of events happening right under their noses and they're too dumb to even ask questions. So in this case, we DID see that it didn't happen.

What was their plan if there is no clone army accidentally discovered hours before the war?

You might want to look into false flags -- staging attacks with a political/military objective. Especially since Lucas cites as inspiration Rome (Nero burned down 1/3 of the city to clear the way for Domus Aurea) and Nazi Germany (the Nazis burned the Reichstag themselves and used it to accrue power). History is replete with them, including US history (see Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania Sinking, the USS Maine as pretext to occupy Cuba).

Not to get into 9/11 conspiracy theories, but look at the police state in the US since that incident -- warrantless wiretaps, citizens can be detained indefinitely without legal representation or due process, TSA body searches, the end of Posse Comitadus (which prevents the military from operating domestically), domestic drone surveillance, et al. We have a gigantic new 5th branch of the military called Homeland Security that has unlimited bugdet and in the past few years has bought fleets of urban assault vehicles and 2.1 billion hollow point bullets (10x the ammo used in the entire Iraq War). The police state has certainly gained from the acts of 19 lone Saudi hijackers, regardless of whether 9/11 was a false flag or a genuine terrorist event. As Rahm Emmanuel says, "never let a serious crisis go to waste".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero#Great_Fire_of_Rome_.2864_AD.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Reichstag

Once again, somebody is the advocate for the creation of the army in the Senate. Even though we don't see it in the film, it is logical to assume it is Palpatine as he is the Chancellor (and the one who created the clone army behind the scenes).
Didn't see it, didn't happen? Zing.

 

No, you're just backpedaling. First they didn't investigate, now "the state of the investigation is advanced little". The story has changed. This seems to be a slightly more nuanced version of "didn't see it, didn't happen"; if one's efforts produce no substantial improvement, one's efforts actually never happened in the first place.

You're forgetting the option where there is nothing of any substance left around for them to find even if they do investigate. You know, the option which coincidentally doesn't turn their opponent into an idiot.

Why act as if they planned for the Separatist crisis?

But they weren't the ones responsible. That was the whole point. Thank you for validating my point about the disconnect between "who benefits" and "who did it". Palpatine appears to be nothing more than an opportunist like the ones you allude to, as opposed to a perpetrator.

And Palpatine is a somebody, so guilty? Aren't the Senators advocating for the creation of army a matter of public record at this point? Nothing points directly to Palpatine since he would be just one of many with the same desire. And again, someone simply getting something they want is too commonplace a dynamic to automatically cast doubt upon the circumstances.

 

I'm trying to be generous and allow for your claim that they could have investigated (which I believe they didn't). That's the problem and that's why they are idiots. Clearly we, as the film's observers, know there is something wrong so there was something to find, they just didn't look hard enough. So you will say it was all too well hidden; I will respond they know something's wrong, they know the Sith have returned, keep looking. Try harder. Something IS there, be persistent.

It would have actually been exciting if Palpatine were actually in danger of being exposed and the Jedi were barking up the right tree and hot on the tail of Palpatine or his Sith alter-ego. This doesn't happen once in the entire trilogy until Anakin reveals it to Mace, and he only knew that because Palpatine TOLD HIM OUTRIGHT even despite the Opera conversation earlier. Sheesh. See what I mean? They're all idiots.

Additionally, we see ample evidence that any in-film idiot should have been able to ask the right questions if they just bothered to try. The great mystery was not difficult to solve; anyone who showed even the smallest amount of intelligence could have unravelled Palpatine's plan. That's why I'm disappointed in Obi-Wan's arc in AOTC -- he shows himself to be Mr. Magoo.

George couldn't write a bona-fide mystery with give and take -- as per usual, for one side to emerge victorious the other has to be made laughably inept. Where's the suspense in that?

 

Only your assumption. You forget their opponent is something like a chess master. They're not up against someone who would be unconcerned about loose ends and would just leave a trail laying around for them to find.

According to ROTS dialogue that is exactly what they did, and while in the middle of prosecuting a war and doing every other Jedi duty required of them. But because it did not get the result you thought it should have gotten, that means it never happened. This "win or else you never even played" thing has nothing to do with reality.

 

And once again, why? And why Naboo? (And implicit in blockading Naboo is preventing trade with any other planet). How does preventing Naboo from trading with anybody help the Trade Federation?

And where did the ships go when they left behind only one droid control ship? It would be logical to conclude they left to blockade another planet -- or it's just another simple George Lucas oversight.

It's not explained at all in the film. And if Naboo is so rich in resources, why were they crippled instantly by a trade blockade? My people are dying, Senator. They must depend on something external pretty heavily -- something their lush, idyllic paradase does not produce. Sounds like they import their Oxygen or something.

Again, just taking what the characters know in-film, Palpatine is by far the most likely suspect. (A) nexus of all crises centered around Naboo + (B) rise to Chancellor and further power consolidation + (C) main proponent for army. Even Jar Jar should have been able to figure out they should watch Palpatine closely. It's not even like there was a more likely candidate.

 

Sorry, they know the Sith are back after a 1,000 year absence. They know something is wrong.

In fact, if he had kept Maul hidden, the Jedi might have no reason to suspect the Sith, but he didn't.

 

You think?

And trade between planets not named Naboo goes on as normal. It's hardly the end of the Trade Federation or anything.

This other planet - why did we never hear anything about them? Is the ending of the film supposed to signify "Naboo was saved, too bad for that other planet"?

It's explained before one word of dialogue is spoken.

What film was this in?

When did I say "they do not know something is wrong"? My point was that there is nothing significantly damning that is left around for them to find.

 

Yeah the Jedi was dumb because of the Plot. I mean seriously you did not need force powers to figure out Palpatine was guilty. Especially when u count EU materials.

 

name one thing that proves Palpatine was behind it.

 

Ooh yes, I love arguing about the plausibility of the plot of the prequels.

Yeah, this is explained right in the opening crawl. The Trade Federation is blockading Naboo in protest of what they view as unfair taxation of outlying trade routes. They're forgoing whatever measly portion of their overall profits Naboo's trade represents in order to starve a population, get away with it completely by forcing the monarch to sign a treaty and taking advantage of the Republic's ridiculous bureaucracy, and then use the demonstrated fact that they can torpedo the economies of whole planets with impunity as leverage with which to force tax concessions from the political establishment. Not explicitly explained but indicated by the movie is that they also get to take complete ownership of Naboo and all its resources, which is nice.

They went to resume their regular trade duties with other planets. Because, as you so ably pointed out, the Trade Federation is in this thing to make money, after all.

Simple. Naboo is rich in at least one valuable resource, which they trade for other essential resources. They're crippled by the trade blockade because they can't trade the resources they have for the resources they don't have. In the EU, I believe it's made explicit that while Naboo has a great natural agricultural capacity, it's come to rely heavily on external trade of its valuable plasma supply to import sufficient foodstuffs to feed its population. Obviously, they can't just instantly convert their entire agricultural infrastructure overnight to accommodate the sudden and unexpected cut-off of its trade lines, so a lot of people ended up starving. I'm no economist, but I don't think this is an implausible situation. Especially when it comes to one government being expected to coordinate the health and well-being of an entire planet.

One crisis was centered around Naboo. The second one had Naboo involved in a supporting role, telling you that Naboo has become a power player in galactic politics since its senator was elected supreme leader of the galaxy, which is just simple politics. Really, what part of Naboo's role in the Separatist Crisis would even point to Palpatine manipulating events behind the scenes? Palpatine didn't manipulate Padme into being against the creation of a clone army, and the only reason Padme was targeted for assassination was because of Gunray's personal vendetta. Palpatine didn't give a crap about any of that beyond the fact that Padme needed to die in order for Gunray to pledge his resources to the Confederacy (until Gunray got forced into giving in and joining with his term unfulfilled).

 

One more thing. When Padme says "my people are dying." I never interpreted that to mean that they were starving to death. I can't imagine that happening on a world as lush as Naboo. I always just thought (as gruesome as it sounds for a SW movie) that the Trade Federation was killing them off.

 

The film only mentions the death toll in reference to starvation. I don't think the Trade Federation was rounding people up and killing them. That would be a bit hard to justify, even for them.