Lit Mace Windu: Jedi fool?

When is anything said about starvation?

 

Are you saying "didn't see it; didn't happen?"

If you have a logical reason for why the massive Trade Federation fleet left except for one lone control ship, let's hear it. Was the blockade over all of a sudden?

(The answer is George having to dumb down every single opponent in a struggle. It's hard enough to believe Anakin accidentally blowing up one TF capital ship let alone a fleet of them, and if any other pilot blew up a TF ship it would lessen how great Anakin would have looked. Therefore, only one ship which Anakin would blow up.)

Oh really? The title crawl says "Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute. Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo." Then goes on to boring political details. Blah blah congress, blah blah cancellor, blah blah Jedi.

Nope, not explained there. This tells us absolutely nothing about why they picked Naboo and not some other planet. Is Naboo taxing the trade routes? No.

Then the film pans down and we see a starship head towards a blue planet with a blockade of 18 visible ships. Then Qui-Gon says the first word of the film -- "Captain".

Not exactly explained there, either. Still no idea why they picked Naboo to blockade. So where exactly was it explained again?

Didn't see it, didn't happen? It's this little thing called "logic". It seems to be taunting you every time we discuss these films.

My point is by Maul's exposure they know something is amiss; if they are having a hard time finding evidence that means don't give up so easily, keep pressing, something is there if they look hard enough. A good place to start would be by putting pressure on the Nemoidians since they started the Naboo conflict and they involved the Sith They also seem like weasels who would squeal under pressure.

 

The question being asked is, why Naboo and not some other planet on the outer rim on the trade routes like Sullust or Eriadu or Utapau or Malastare or Bespin. Those are some of the planets in the same region of the galaxy, why Naboo and not them?

The answer is, Palpatine needed to evoke sympathy to make his play for Chancellor. If Sidious orchestrated the blockade of Bespin he couldn't exactly use that to his advantage as Senator from Naboo.

The supplemental answer is that Palpatine knew he had a malleable queen under his finger and he knew the planet was weak and unprepared for conflict.

All they seem to have is the power reactor underneath the palace. Because after one day of a blockade their society collapses without space supplies.

And as you so ably pointed out, their new business model seems to be extortion, so, 18 ships in the fleet at the opening of the movie, 1 left for the final conflict, the other 17 are up to something, why not a blockade of another planet...

Whatever resource it is that they need to have shipped, it seems to be something on the order of breathable air. One day under blockade and society collapses -- My people are dying, Senator -- The death toll is catastrophic. People can go without food for weeks. And come on, the lush paradise of Naboo can't produce something people could eat? People have been known to eat grass and tree bark in starvation situations.

Perhaps this blockade scenario would have made some sense on a colony on a harsh, forbidding planet or space station. Hoth, Bespin, sure. But on the most paradise-like planet ever shown in the GFFA? GTFO.

What do the Gungans eat? They are the native species and thrive without space supplies. Obviously there is food on the planet.

Further, most of Naboo's civilization seems to center around Threed and not the entire planet. We already know the Gungans live on the other side of the planet in isolation so at best it's 1/2 of the planet.

(A) Why was Naboo picked on? Asking just that question would pay dividends.
(B) As I proposed to Arwyn_Fenn, we are told Padme is a chief opponent of the army; who is the chief advocate? It's Palpatine's senate, it would logically be him. We are never told in the film, Padme never confronts anybody over it.

 

I'm not the one having a problem with logic. Appeal to ignorance is a logical fallacy. Your claim about Palpatine is not supported anywhere; you merely insist that it must be true, because you find it necessary to make your position work. The same goes for your insistence that the Jedi did not investigate anything. Neither of these claims have any evidence backing them up. You only insist they must be true because they have not been proven false. See the connection?

Once again, no one that I know of is arguing that they do not know something is amiss. The point is that knowing something is amiss is not enough.

The problem here, as usual, is your punitively outcome-based mentality. In essence, one either wins the game or one is assumed to have not even tried in the first place. But this is not an accurate representation of reality. If your opponent is better than you are, you can't assume a "try hard" mentality is going to suffice. Even the wording above gives this away: first they are having a "hard time", then they're "giving up so easily". In the blink of an eye we've gone from hard to easy. So what happened here? The same old same old: fabrication of things designed to support your stance. Where is it established that they gave up easily? And of course you continue to assume that Palpatine's plan falls apart if someone just looks hard enough, which essentially turns Palpatine into some kind of careless moron. In reality, it is not the case that continued effort must always produce any desired outcome.

Why do you assume they didn't try that? As has been suggested, the Neimoidians are probably more afraid of Sidious than anything else.

Does this mean you admit they weren't blockading other planets?

This makes no sense whatsoever. As I said before, the Senators supporting the creation of an army would be a matter of public record. There is no mystery there. By what rationale would it be assumed that their support for an army somehow did not come from themselves? And then we have those not supporting the creation of the army. Those people are also in "Palpatine's Senate". Given that we did not see Palpatine espouse a position on the subject, how is the pro-army faction linked to Palpatine in any way that the anti-army faction is not?

You asked what they stood to gain, at least part of which is explained there. So you can't pretend they had no incentive.

"Not explicitly explained but indicated by the movie is that they also get to take complete ownership of Naboo and all its resources."

 

Follow the logic.

SOMEONE in the senate is proposing a clone army. Do you agree?

Palpatine is the Chancellor, leader of the Senate. Do you agree?

Is it far fetched to believe Chancellor Palpatine is pushing the agenda? We are never told in the film, but logic says Palpatine is suspect #1.

Exactly why they need to keep digging until they uncover something instead of apparently giving up.

We see the Nemoidians are free by the next film, yet there is no surveillance of their activities or monitoring of their communications. That might have actually been interesting if they were being tailed, FBI style...

I'm giving you the real, script driven reason. Feel free to invent any contorted in-story reason to explain George's bad storytelling. It wouldn't be the first time someone's been forced into that position. Large swaths of the EU are dedicated to this task.

It makes perfect sense and it's the first logical choice. I'm not saying it is mysteriously hidden from the Senate; we are never told, in-film, who exactly is sponsoring the creation of the army. As we see in real-world senates, bills are sponsored by certain members of congress. Important ones tend to be sponsored by high ranking party officials. If you review legislation sponsored by Speakers of the House such as current John Boehner or former Nancy Pelosi you will find ample examples. Overarching agendas are set by congressional leadership, and in the world of the GFFA that is Palpatine.

On the other hand, we see more and more in our real Senate bills that have mysterious origin where congresspeople aren't even given ample time to read the bills, which makes it dubious as to their authentic authorship. As Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare, "We have to pass it to see what's in it". If she hasn't even read it, what are the chances she authored it. So in real life we have bills whose origins are shrouded in mystery, who's to say it couldn't or didn't happen in the GFFA. It's not part of the plot so we can't say.

 

I think you mean "follow the logical fallacy".

The "suspects" in the non-mystery of who is promoting the army would be those Senators openly supporting the creation of an army.

Nowhere is it indicated that they "gave up". This is just more of the same rewriting of the plot to prop up a failed stance. We know from ROTS dialogue alone that they did not give up. An outcome-based mentality is of no use here, just like any other divergence from how reality works. Continual effort does not guarantee any desired outcome. Palpatine is simply not carelessly depending on a plot which unravels as long as nobody "gives up".

Don't they have the money and resources to circumvent such things? Aren't they allied with a "Techno Union"? Do the Jedi have either the ability or the mandate to accomplish effective surveillance of an entire galaxy?

What about Sidious' assurance that the blockade would be made legal? That one was invented by Lucas.

It doesn't matter that we are not told the specific names of the Senators supporting the creation of an army. We know from Padme's dialogue alone that they exist. Thus there is no need to look elsewhere for the source of this support. It does not somehow implicate Palpatine when some Senators want the creation of an army. Some Senators do not want the creation of an army, so the "logic" falls apart. How is the mere existence of a pro-army Senator somehow to be taken as implicating Palpatine, while the existence of an anti-army Senator ( from Palpatine's own system no less ) does not equally implicate Palpatine in anti-army sentiment?

 

Wasn't he talking about Amidala signing the treaty, which didn't happen?

This is how the novelization explains the disappearance of the blockade: "When Panaka wondered aloud at the absence of the other battleships, Qui-Gon pointed out rather dryly that you don't need a blockade once you control the port."

Which is maybe the dumbest line ever written in any work of fiction.

 

Your syllogism isn't unreasonable... it was very much the case with the 1933 Enabling Act in Germany that handed Hitler emergency powers. Unfortunately for your argument, Palpatine's acquisition of such power is only vaguely analogous to Hitler's... and is a good deal more subtle.

Hitler and his supporters directly and overtly lobbied for such power from the Reichstag. In contrast, Palpatine took great steps to never be caught holding the bag. In the AOTC script, when Padme is nearly killed on the landing platform, there is a [cut] scene in the Senate that shows outraged Senators demanding increased security measures... and it is Palpatine who staunchly opposes them, deferring to negotiation with the Separatists. He does so again when the Jedi meet with him in the aftermath, where Palpatine is revealed to have been delaying the vote in order to buy the anti-militarists (Padme, the Jedi, et al.) more time.

The reason Padme was nearly killed was not only to satisfy Gunray's thirst for vengeance but also to rid Palpatine of her influential vote against the Military Creation Act. It failed and so Palpatine had to devise a way to get her offworld without overtly opposing her.

In short, the evidence actually opposes the idea that Palpatine ever lobbied or pushed for the creation of the Republic military if only to remove the taint you ascribe to him anyway, because you've watched the parts where he's in a bathrobe speaking in his scary voice.

There is a great excerpt from The Essential Guide to the Force that sums it up: "Palpatine projected an unassuming manner as he manipulated situations to grant himself additional political authority at every opportunity; few suspected he was seizing power because virtually everyone was foisting it upon him."

That's precisely what was happening here. Palpatine never, like Hitler, campaigned or lobbied to receive emergency powers or the creation of an army. He arranged matters so that it would be given to him without him asking.

 

So if the Trade Federation had blockaded some other planet instead of Naboo, would it be reasonable for people to assume that some senator from either Sullust, Eriadu, Utapau, or Malastare must have been orchestrating events behind the scenes for some nefarious purpose? No, that would be a ridiculous thing to just assume, just as it would be ridiculous to assume that for Naboo (even though we know it ended up being true).

You're seriously, seriously looking at things from an extreme vantage point of hindsight. Why should anyone be suspicious of the Trade Federation choosing Naboo? It's a lightly defended, out of the way, yet fairly well-known planet with a valuable resource. Perfect for their purposes. They had to pick just one planet because illegally blockading a planet for the purposes of political extortion is a risky enough plan without multiplying the problem by doing it simultaneously on multiple fronts and tying up even more resources, especially when one planet will work just fine for the plan. They probably could have chosen some other planet that fits the same description but they didn't, because they just didn't. We know the reason they chose Naboo is because Palpatine convinced them to, but there's literally no reason for anyone in the galactic public to suspect that was the reason, because there is already publicly available information about the planet that makes it gobsmackingly obvious why they might choose Naboo for their demonstration. It's the principle of Occam's Razor.

There is already a logical and easily explicable motive for the Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo. It makes perfect sense.

It would also make perfect sense if they had blockaded another lightly defended, out of the way, yet fairly well-known planet with a valuable resource. Given that it would make perfect sense if they had blockaded another such planet, would it be right for people to suspect the senator from that planet of treachery? No, it wouldn't, and they would have been wrong for doing so, because the senator would have been innocent.

Explain why this same principle doesn't apply to Naboo. And don't use your knowledge, as a viewer, that Palpatine really was involved.

I don't remember what the EU says, but I didn't get the impression that the blockade had literally just begun when we dropped in on the action at the start of the movie.

Because there's no reason for them to blockade another planet. Their plan was working. Blockading another planet only could have hurt them, because it would have introduced more moving parts into their plan and thus more opportunities for them to be exposed before they legitimized their activities in the eyes of the Senate.


edit:

D'oh, that's true. There was indeed a motive for Palpatine to send an assassin after Padme.

However, there's still no reason for that to point back to Palpatine, since Palpatine was seen to be, if anything, against the Military Creation Act. Really, he acted mostly neutral toward it, though.

 

Palpatine used a blockade to spring board his political career to the top. Quite Frankly anytime a politician uses a disaster to get the top it bears investigating unless of course its a natural disaster.

 

Sidious used to TF to further his agenda. There is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine had anything to do with the blockade. So even if the Jedi made assumptions about the situation based on who profited they would turn up nothing. ON another note law enforcement rarely looks into politiciaNS who gain from disasters.

 

"This game of your has failed Lord Sidious, we dare not go against the Jedi" pretty much sums that up, doesn't it?

IU, sure there wasn't evidence of wrong doing - but I'd say it is pretty clear that Sidious had something to do with the blockade

 

There is no evidence to provide for the Jedi or anyone else to intelligently argue that Palptaine had anything to do with the invasion.

 

Well, I'd say the Neimoidians at least could have potentially put two and two together, given that they were in regular holographic contact with Sidious and knew he held some power over the Senate.....but whatever, all human chins look the same. Right, Nute?

 

Do they not have voice recognition software or some facial rec software. Might not have been a bad idea to try bugging his office.

 

I guess I'm just unclear from the first post if your looking in universe(IU) or out of universe(OOU).

Like I said I agree that in universe there wouldn't be evidence to tie to Palpatine, but out of universe, as viewers of the film, the situation is clear.

 

Palpatine is not the chancellor of anything until sometime after episode one. During that movie he is the senator for Naboo. That's why he's so important in the movie, it is his planet being blockaded.

Why does the reason for Naboo's blockade need to be explained in the film? It's not explained in ep. 4 why the Alliance chose Yavin IV as their base, neither is it explained later why they chose Hoth, or why the Empire chose Endor for the Death Star II's construction site? These are not important for the plot of the film. All that matters is that the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo, Amidala is the queen of Naboo, and Palpatine is the senator for Naboo.

 

Obviously looking out as a viewer you know what's going on. Though from what was said in a post above, up until ROTS a lot of people debated whether or not Palpatine and Sidious were the same person. My point is for those saying that it should have been obvious to the Jedi the Palpatine was behind the blockade, there was no evidence and it was virtually impossible to associate him with the TF.

 

No, my logic is that the Trade Federation is the most likely benefactor of their blockade and invasion of Naboo. The simple fact that they perform these actions indicate pretty heavily that they gain something (despite us not knowing what that is). Why would the Trade Federation do these things if they have nothing to gain?

So because the clones were "programmed" with a contingency order to take down the Jedi, they must be a part of a great conspiracy? What about Order 65 which stated the clones could arrest the Chancellor? Does that mean Palpatine was conspiring against himself.

Since the Neimoidians are the only ones who could tell the Jedi Sidious' name, and they don't seem to be cooperating in the Jedi investigation, where please tell me are they to gain this knowledge?

The Sith wouldn't benefit from an army of droids and countless systems trying to defeat the Republic and take over the galaxy?

And they still would have failed. No matter what you would have prefered the Jedi do, they will always fail. No matter how "logical" you try to make your argument, the Jedi can't win. They could have brought every single Jedi in the entire Order to arrest or kill Palpatine and they still would have failed. The argument that Mace taking 3 other Jedi Masters to arrest Palpatine is stupid cause they got their butts kicked they should have done something else fails to take into account that the Jedi can never win.

 

Look back through history and you will see plenty of examples of businesses arming their men and ships to defend themselves from pirates. I belived the EU establishes that the TF got a law passed in the Senate to allow them to arm their ships and build droids in order to defend themselves against pirates.

You are quite right, that is a manuever. I thought you were refering to the election itself not the removal of Vallorum.

I'm not defending ludicrous events in the film, but ludicrous statements of the Jedi are stupid because they couldn't connect the dots like I could despite not having the knowledge I have and the hindsight of having seen the films.

 

ILNP I think Order 65 may have been a sly contingency plan added in by Dooku as a backup for if he ever had to turn against Palpatine.

 

George Lucas wrote:

As dedicated as the Separatists were in their resolve to create a new order to replace the failing Republic, the Jedi were equally determined to preserve the Republic and defeat the Sith, who they understood all too well were the masterminds of the Separatist movement.

Which only makes sense, once they realize that Dooku is a Sith.