PT Mace Windu's mistake

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Vialco, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    In AOTC, Mace gets the drop on Jango, Dooku and the Separatist leaders.

    Dooku doesn't seem to sense him, and yet, instead of stabbing Dooku in the back, Mace chooses to light up Jango's jaw and commands Dooku to surrender.

    This was, in my opinion, a colossal mistake. Mace should have killed Dooku then and there, and that would have ended the Clone Wars before it began.

    So the question here is: Was Mace giving in to his attachment by not striking Dooku down in the box? Because we've seen that it's perfectly justifiable for Jedi to kill Sith. Obi-Wan cut Maul in half and left Anakin to burn.

    Surely Mace would have been justified in cutting an unsuspecting Dooku down and thus stopping the Clone Wars.

    Another question is whether killing Dooku on Geonosis and capturing all the Separatist leaders would have been enough to end the war? After all, Grievous wasn't there on Geonosis.

    Discuss
    Last edited by Vialco, Nov 12, 2012
  2. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    If he did that then he couldn't have said "this party's over".

    But seriously it is weird that the Jedi, who have no reluctance to cut through armies of droids and clones and cut people's hands off, hesitate so much when it comes to killing a Sith, the greatest threat they've ever encountered, even with billions of lives at stake.
  3. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2011
    star 2
    My understanding of it was Mace didn't know Dooku was a Sith yet. They only thought he was a political idealist.

    It wasn't til Yoda called Dooku on using the Dark Side(in Dooku's hanger), when we knew that the Jedi knew.
  4. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Ruthlessly killing someone without them even knowing you're there? Not at all the "Jedi way". Based on all things Star Wars, that sounds like a shortcut to the dark side to me.

    "Obi-Wan cut Maul in half" because Maul was actively trying to kill him at the moment. Obi-Wan pwned Anakin because Anakin wouldn't stop trying to kill him, plus Anakin had just gone on a murder spree.
  5. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Stabbing someone (an old friend, no less) in the back... Very Jedi-like...

    Mace didn't know Dooku was a Sith. And if Mace had stabbed him in the back, it would mean he had give in to his emotions (vengeance).

    You are wrongfully judging the scene as someone from the audience, instead of seeing it from Mace's POV.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That said, Mace does wonder later how many lives would have been saved if he had killed Dooku at that point, and if him falling would have been "worth it". Shatterpoint makes a big feature of this.

    His own (fallen) student tells him that the Jedi should have just bombed the arena and written off Anakin, Obi-Wan & Padme, and that their lack of ruthlessness is the problem.
  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    But this is the movie forum (I assume we're ignoring EU events).
  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Republic & the Separatists were at the point of actual 'war' at that stage. Mace Windu simply was not in a position to kill an unarmed Separatist leader (not that he could necessarily have done so, even if they were at war). Doing so would have been an act of outright aggression, and could have led to even more star systems joining the Separatists.

    And yes, Dooku's Sith affiliation was unknown (or, at least, not verified) at that point anyway.

    It's like asking why Neville Chamberlain didn't stick a knife between Adolf Hitler's ribs at Munich in 1938.
  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Especially that Dooku was a former Jedi.
  10. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
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    I think Dooku was good enough to hold Windu off (for a while, until Jango could do something AT LEAST) even if Windu had just gone right at him.
  11. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    It's right that Mace didn't yet know that Dooku was a Sith, and stabbing Dooku in the back would have been spun by the separatist propaganda as showing the Jedi as cold heartless murderers.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Nov 13, 2012
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  12. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Um, I think if Mace kills Dooku and captures all the Separatist leaders in the Archduke's Box, the Separatist movement would be effectively dead.
  13. Order66Survivor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1
    Wouldn't stop Palpatine
  14. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Probably, but Palpatine would have another scheme up and running in a few years.

    And you would also have to deal with Mace Windu's inevitable fall to the dark side.

    I don't think it's that inconceivable that Mace would end up a Sith himself, if he had taken the path you've outlined.
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  15. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Grievous actually killed Jedi in the catacombs on Geonosis according to the EU.

    Mace Windu's real mistake was not finding Anakin Skywalker's shatterpoint shortly before his death.
  16. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
  17. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    Stabbing a a guy in the back is murder - irrelevant of their crimes.

    And at that point the Jedi did not know Dooku was an actual Sith.

    However, he was the leader of the Separatist movement, and striking him down would most certainly not have brought peace. Taking him prisoner was the better option to attain that.

    And Obi-Wan defeated Maul and Anakin in a fair fight - not through dirty tactics.
  18. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Dooku was watching as feral animals attempted to devour two Jedi and a Republic Senator. I think it would be pretty clear to Macr that Dooku was no longer a "political idealist". This is the same Mace Windu who rushed off to murder the Chancellor upon learning he was a Sith.


    Well, Dooku didn't seem to sense Mace sneaking up on them. So I assume that Mace would just stab Dooku in the back, literally.

    Mace has already proven that Jango Fett is no match for him. So kill Dooku and order the Separatist Leaders to shut down the droids at lightsaber point.
    Last edited by Vialco, Nov 14, 2012
  19. xtinataguba Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    in episode 3 he had the chance to kill palpatine but he hesitated. and the second mistake was????
  20. Homesick Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Look at it as a sign of respect toward another force wielder, and defected Jedi. The Jedi hold, in high regard, honor, and respect. If Windu were to just back-stab Count Dooku, this would have negated these ideals that he stood for. Instead, he wanted an honorable fight, giving him a chance, instead of doing away with him in such a cheap, dishonorable manner.

    Also, keep in mind, that no matter how terrible a person, now matter how terrible their crimes are, the Jedi would have, based on their views, given him a chance to surrender, then and there. If he were to just stab him, that would be murder, and again, not reflect his ideals.

    One thing that you mentioned was that of if Mace killed Dooku, or captured them, that that may have stopped the war. Remember, Dooku was but a figurehead, a spokesperson for Sidious. Someone to rally star systems and investors. He never was, or was intentioned to, become a large part of the war, or even survive it. So, if Windu did eliminate Dooku, this wouldn't have ended the war. Sidious had access to both sides, and the ability to keep both sides equal until he didn't need the war anymore. He would just find another way to even the stakes if Dooku was lost, before schedule.
    Last edited by Homesick, Nov 14, 2012
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  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Agreed upon the first part. But after Yoda duel's Dooku it is not yet known by the Jedi that he is a Sith Lord, suspected maybe. Dooku's Sith allegiance is not known until it is confirmed by Quinlan Vos during his spy operation.

    So it's obvious Mace Windu did not make a mistake. Even in hindsight with the knowledge he had, he had no reason to strike down Dooku in cold blood. It was a rescue mission no an assassination attempt.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Nov 14, 2012
  22. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I think the Sith lightning just might have given Dooku away.
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  23. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I think you mean the same Mace that tried to arrest the Chancellor twice, the second time after the Chancellor killed three Jedi Masters, and even hesitated to kill him when he had his lightsaber at the Chancellor's throat.


    You really don't get this whole Jedi thing.
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  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Simply murdering Dooku would have been out of character for Mace and the Jedi.

    That said he and the rest of the Jedi made many massive blunders on Geonosis.

    1) Mace should not have gone up there alone. Sith or not, the Jedi knew that Dooku was planing a war so he is no longer a friend. They also know that he is quite capable and could put up a fight. So Mace should have had 4-5 other Masters with him and let 10 or so knights to guard the corridor.
    They knew that the seps had a big army on Geonosis but power at a point can win you the fight.
    If Dooku is outnumbered 6 to 1 then he would be a fool to fight. And if he sends the droids, the other knight can hold them off long enough for Mace to make an ultimatum, "Call of the droids or die." If Dooku is sucicidal then he dies, if not he gets captured. Either way, the seps are defeated.

    2) Not contacting Yoda and the big army he had with him. Yoda was perhaps only half an hour behind so why didn't they talk and make some sort of plan?

    3) The boneheaded tactic of jumping down into the arean to charge the large hords of droids that are attacking. Real smart, jumping down into a confined space and engae a wastly superiour force. Whoever said that the Jedi were not soldiers was totally right, this was grade A stupid form a military tactics point of view.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  25. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    IMO, Mace made two mistakes:

    First was not recalling Yoda to Coruscant the moment that Anakin revealed that Palpatine was also Sidious.

    Second was not enlisting Anakin's active help - by telling him that Palpatine/Sidious was the one orchastrating the many attempts on Senator Amidala's life.

    Personally, I think that Palpatine/Sidious read Mace like a book and played him like a fiddle.
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