Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Vialco, Nov 12, 2012.
Well, I don't think this dialogue would be necessary in the movie.
[/quote]I never understood why Anakin had to cut off Mace's hand. He could have just as easily blocked Mace's attack and then made his argument about how it's not the Jedi way (despite the obvious hypocricy of that argument after he's already killed Dooku).[/quote]
He's in turmoil and can't think clearly.[/quote]
He's able to think clearly enough to use one of the mantras of the Jedi Order against Mace.
That would be the first thing to come to his mind in defense of Palps.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......................from his "point of view, the Jedi are evil", yet killing McDiarmid right then & there can't be allowed because, as nobility would have it, "it's not the Jedi way"?
Then, three minutes later, it's off to the Temple for a child killing rampage. Just a little TCB is all.
Sheesh. I still contend the script was written on a napkin at the bar in Holland somewhere.
One argument I've seen is that, with a Force-User, there's no such thing as unarmed. Even without hands, Dooku could Force Choke, or shoot Sith Lightning from his stumps.
Anakin would disagree with that argument.
No, because he would be arrested by the Australian police
And he would have been guilty of murder . . . an act both he and Yoda tried to commit against Palpatine in ROTS.
Why do you guys continue to assume that Mace needed Yoda or Anakin's help in a fight against Palpatine, when Lucasfilm has made it clear that he, Yoda or Anakin were the only ones powerful enough to face the new Emperor? Mace's mistake was not recalling Yoda or bringing Anakin along. He really didn't need Yoda's help. And considering Anakin's emotional state, chances are the young Jedi would have betrayed him anyway.
What were Mace's mistakes? He tried to arrest Palpatine without notifying the Senate. And he tried to murder the Sith Lord. Yoda made the second mistake. He tried to kill Palpatine without any legal notification or support.
The Empire was already in effect by that point, so not a mistake in any meaningful way.
The entire Jedi Council made a lot of mistakes in the Prequels. Placing Anakin with Sidious in the first place was a mistake. Could no one see the look on Anakins face throughout that entire film? He was full of sorrow and indecision. Then there is Qui-Gon Jinn. He was not on the Council and he made many mistakes. Fortunately his one saving grace is training Obi Wan kenobi to Knighthood.
In regards to Mace Windu he made a mistake of losing too many Jedi on Geonosis and another mistake of not destroying the Sith Lord when he had the chance. After all he was acting in the name of the Senate and the Republic.
Yoda had made a mistake in his attempt to kill Palpatine. Even he realized his error when he was making his escape from the Senate building.
I'm sorry. Considering Obi-Wan's inability to take Qui-Gon's lessons seriously . . . I don't know.
Qui Gon did say that there was nothing more that Obi Wan could learn from him in front of the Jedi Council. It appeared that he felt that Obi Wan had been listening to him. However I still do not get why Mace and the Council agreed to have Anakin trained when they said they saw danger in his training. Simply because it was Qui-Gons last wish should not have been enough to forget about all of those things. Mace and the Council just seemed to make too many mistakes.
Possibly because they now have more evidence the Sith have returned- Obi-Wan's word for it as well as Qui-Gon's. Without the Sith (and thus, the idea that The Chosen One is needed to fight them)- there's less reason to train Anakin. With the Sith, there's more reason to do so.
There was no real danger to Anakin's training. This declaration was merely an expression of fear of the unknown on the Jedi's part. Anakin represented an unknown quality and they feared it. In the end, the Jedi's wariness of Anakin proved to be part of their downfall.
And I find it hard to accept the Jedi Council's claim about Anakin's training to be a danger, when they failed to make the same assessment of Count Dooku. I mean . . . after all, he was Yoda's padawan. Yoda never saw any danger in Dooku's training when the latter was young?
Hear the full quote: "He still has much to learn about the living Force, but he is capable. There is little more that he can learn from me."
Well, he spoke of failure, but are failure and error the same thing? He should have brought backup.
What backup? Obi-Wan was the only Jedi Master left with him.
Yoda voices the statement that they see grave danger in Anakins training. Then they all look at each other and then Mace says "The boy will not be trained. Again I must ask does anyone see the way Anakin is reacting to the Jedi Council? Qui-Gpm has already filled his head full of ideas and he believes them wholeheartedly. In addition to that he is telling them he feels cold. Something is not right there. Anakins mind was too busy and he was not in control of his feelings or emotions.
The Jedi's biggest mistake was in making Anakin Obi-wan's padawan instead of Mace's.
Anakin needed to be placed with someone strong and firm, someone who was skeptical enough of him to not place him on the "Chosen One" pedestal, someone who was familiar enough with the dark side to see when Anakin was slipping towards it, someone who was skilled enough to handle Anakin's power, and someone who wasn't going to make any excuses for him.
More than once when I was growing up, my dad told me: "I'm your father, not your buddy". That's something parents have to do, and as Anakin's surrogate father, Obi-wan was far, far too much Anakin's "buddy" instead of his authority figure. He let Anakin have too long a leash, looked the other way when he did things he should have been called on... believed in him too much. And Yoda should have known this. Anakin was far too powerful and independent for a newly-minted Jedi Knight to handle. He should have told Obi-wan that Anakin would be trained, but not by him.
That was an excellent post.
I've gone back and forth about whether Mace would have been a good Master for Anakin but this was very well said. I had adamantly thought "No" until I read Shatterpoint; the events of that book showed that Mace would have been able to meet Anakin where he was, when the darkness started creeping in.
Nothing against Obi-Wan, who I think did the best he could, but definitely a very good argument there.
Without reading the novels, I'm not sure Mace would be a good master for Anakin. He's too stoic and detached. Anakin needed someone warm, to fill the void left by the absence of his mother. Someone like Qui-Gon or old Ben (or even more laid back Obi-Wan from ROTS). I actually think that maybe Obi-Wan tried to overcompensate and was too strict with Anakin, hence the teenage rebellion. I don't think he's too lenient: look at all the scolding he gives to Anakin while they're still together on Coruscant. All the failings of Anakin we see actually see happen when he's away on his own and Obi-Wan doesn't even know about most of it. Any time Anakin breaks or threatens to break the rules, it's usually caused by his strong emotional attachments - and that's something that neither Obi-Wan nor Mace can properly deal with.
I had thought the same thing, but the novel showed how attached Mace was to Depa Billaba, and how angry all the darkness on Haruun Kal made him.
No, that's exactly what Anakin didn't need. Obi-wan coddled him, and how'd that work out?
Yeah, like I said, too long a leash.
Or look at the fact that by that age, Anakin shouldn't need scoldings like that. Even Ahsoka's grown past that by S5 of The Clone Wars, and she's 1) the same age or younger and 2) not The Chosen One. Anakin has been spoiled, and been put too much on a pedestal for his admittedly-great abilities and his position.
I agree that Obi-Wan gave Anakin way too long a leash. He was scolding him when at that point he should have already failed him and moved on. On the gunship, Obi-Wan lays down the law and Anakin complies.
Another problem with Obi-Wan is that Anakin caught up to him and perhaps surpassed him in terms of power relatively quickly, even before the start of AOTC in Anakin's mind. Once Anakin thought of himself as Obi-Wan's equal (or even better) he told himself he no longer had to listen, that he knew better because he was more powerful. It's might makes right and that's clearly the way Anakin thinks by the time AOTC rolls around. It's like a teenage boy who starts to feel strong, stronger than their dad, so they don't have to listen because dad can't bend them over his knee anymore.
Mace would have been powerful enough to keep Anakin in his place for far longer than Obi-Wan could. If Anakin started to get too high on himself, thinking that he knows it all because he's so talented, Mace could always challenge him to a duel and smack him down.
@Narutakikun: I don't entirely agree there. I don't think Obi-Wan "coddled" Anakin, I think Anakin had far too many issues and Obi-Wan didn't know how to help him, probably didn't understand just how deep the darkness and fear went. Mace was far more familiar with it, and the lightsaber technique that he invented, Vaapad, involved teetering on the edge of the Dark Side for success...but that balance made it too dangerous for the majority of Jedi.
As far as Ahsoka, I just mentioned this in a different thread, I think her maturity is unrealistic. There are people who are mature for their age (and I was never one of them so maybe there's something here that I just don't "get") but I think her portrayal was over the top, and more for the writers to say "Look at how awesome Ahsoka is!" And Anakin being the "Chosen One" has nothing whatsoever to do with his maturity or his aptitude for maturing quickly. That was a prophecy, not an aspect of his personality.
I definitely don't think Anakin was spoiled. I do think the Jedi, starting with Qui-Gon in TPM, filled his head with all this "Chosen One" tripe when he should have never been told about that prophecy at all, and thus I think he put more pressure on himself--I think the arrogance was a cover for self-esteem that was actually very low, as arrogance often is. But that's not the same as spoiling someone.