PT Mace Windu's mistake

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Vialco, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    There's a difference between emotional bonding and coddling. The emotional issues need to be worked with, not repressed. None of the Jedi can deal with them except Qui-Gon (no wonder he's at odds with the council all the time).

    Yeah, like I said, too long a leash.[/quote]

    Huh? It's Anakin's first assignment on his own. Obi-Wan is actually worried Anakin is going to screw things up (while Typho thinks Padme is more unstable). You get two young people with repressed sexuality together in the romantic setting, and it doesn't bode well.

    Anakin's behavior is another issue (I'd say it's both his fault and Obi-Wan's). Your point was that Obi-Wan is too lenient and I don't see much evidence of that. Every time Anakin steps out of line, he gets a setdown.
  2. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Anakin never showed much respect for Obi-Wan as far as I could see. Of course Anakin was spoken to each time he got out of line but it did not stop him from doing what he wanted to do. If Mace said one word to him Anakin obeys him quickly. Mace tells Anakin to stay with Padme and that is his first priority. Anakin is ready to just wait there for further orders until Padme leads him to Geonosis where they are captured.
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  3. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    I see no evidence that Qui-Gon could have handled Anakin, either. Just the opposite - handing a student that unstable and powerful to a known rule-breaker with a highly questionable sense of ethics would have been a disaster.

    Obi-wan worried but did... what? And why was he worried in the first place? That's a bad sign. By late teenagerhood, one might suppose you'd be able to leave someone who's supposed to be a dedicated Jedi alone with a member of the opposite sex for a couple of days without too much trouble. You know - after years of training and discipline regarding the deep commitment that they were supposed to have to their order. What - is this the first time in 25,000 years the Jedi have faced sending a teenaged padawan somewhere with an attractive member of the opposite sex for a few days?

    But again, that's evidence of trouble. A late-teen that still seems to have the emotional issues of a child under ten is a sign of trouble. It's a sign of a child that was coddled and spoiled, and who still has issues that should have been dealt with way earlier, but weren't.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Dec 5, 2012
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  4. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Except when Mace told Anakin to wait in the Council chambers while he went to go arrest Palpatine/Sidious.
  5. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    On the contrary. He did wait a long time before he went. That just goes to show how much respect he had for him even though he was worried about Padme. The one thing that swayed him is because he felt that Palpatine had the ability to save Padme. Otherwise it is another case in point of how much Anakin respected Mace. The point is he went I know but he weighed all of the options first. Unfortunately it was just another mistake by little Annie.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 5, 2012
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Given that Mace precedes this with "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust" one might understand why Anakin doesn't stay.
  7. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Highly questionable? :confused:It's true he's a maverick and is not very obedient but he can also think outside the box. He'd have been better at helping Anakin overcome his attachment issues instead of telling him to forget and move on. If look at how Obi-Wan and Yoda teach Luke vs. Anakin, they've clearly become more "Qui-Gon like" in their approach.

    Because he knows Anakin has feeling for her. She's not just some Senator they've never met before.

    Well, I don't have kids of my own, but I've seen examples where super strict parents still had very rebellious teens. In fact, the more they pushed, the more kids resisted.
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  8. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Honestly, the Council's treatment of Anakin leaves much to be desired. They certainly should have kept quiet about him being the Chosen one. I wish we saw more of the Anakin's formative years in the Jedi Temple. It must have been hard to try to fit in where everyone else has been trained almost from birth. Obi-Wan loves him, but doesn't understand certain things ("Dreams will pass"). There's a certain emotional isolation, a feeling of being an outsider in his interactions with the other Jedi.
  9. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    I agree with you there. That all leads back to Qui-Gon Jin filling Anakins head with that stuff. Thanks again Qui-Gon. I am wondering if Qui-Gon knew what the ramifications were of what he was telling a ten year old.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 5, 2012
  10. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Yup.

    Like for instance in TPM, where Qui-Gon won't just break into Watto's junkyard and steal the parts he needs, because that would clearly be wrong (even though Watto is a slaver, and the parts could not only help complete his mission, but possibly save the lives of the people he's escorting), but then later in the movie, Qui-Gon gets something he wants from Watto by using the Force to cheat him at dice.

    Pardon me, but what exactly is the difference between the two? Cheating someone at gambling is every bit as much of an act of theft as simply breaking into their place and jacking their stuff. You could argue that Watto's dice were loaded, and maybe they were - but all we have then is Watto's cheat vs. Qui-Gon's cheat; we have no idea what the outcome would have been in an honest roll. The fact that Qui-Gon was the more successful of two cheaters doesn't mean he's not a cheater.

    And what would someone who did stuff like that have taught Anakin? That ethics are flexible and situational - that sometimes you just have to do what works. Which is exactly the path to the dark side.

    All the more reason not to let him go on that mission. Another good "too long a leash" argument.
  11. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    not much difference between what Qui-Gon did than what Obi-Wan did:

    "you want to go home and rethink your life"

    you could say: thats what he did, went home and did just that.

    Why then did Obi insist on using a mind trick instead of reason with him?

    he made him walk out that club to his home/lair/whatever like a zombie if you will.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Anakin had issues, I doubt anyone would argue that. But I'm really not sure how having a hard-ass Master would have helped Anakin deal with his issues, unless said Master also understood the reasons behind the issues.
    I'm a believer in approaching a problem within a person by finding the source of the problem, as opposed to trying to scare the person into hiding the problem--which only works until the person learns to overcome his fear. I don't care what kind of hard-ass Mace Windu would have been, Anakin would have eventually stopped being afraid of him--and if that fear was the only thing holding Anakin back, the same issues that were presnet in canon, would still be there.

    Anakin's issues were not a sign of someone who had been coddled and spoiled. They were a sign of someone who had spent the first 10 years of his life as a slave, had been separated from his mother too soon, and had been told from age 10 that he was supposed to fulfill some prophecy of such ginormous importance that the galaxy could not possibly function if he didn't come through--although he had no idea exactly how he was supposed to come through.
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  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Obi-Wan never coddled Anakin. If anything, he kept a rather tight leash on Anakin that was finally broken by the Jedi Council in AOTC, when they ordered him to investigate the attempt on Padme alone, and ordered Anakin to protect the senator. One of Anakin's major complaints were that Obi-Wan was too critical and not inclined to listen. And from what I had seen in AOTC, I think Anakin was right. Then again, Anakin did not always listen to Obi-Wan. Both struck me as unsuited to each other for a master/student relationship.

    Also, Anakin never said a word to anyone about him being "the Chosen One". I don't think he has ever thought about it. However, Qui-Gon mentioned it in his presence, during an argument with the Jedi Council in TPM. And a very angry Obi-Wan mentioned the prophecy to Anakin in ROTS, after their fight on Mustafar. I believe that Anakin became arrogant about his abilities was due to Palpatine's constant remarks about him being the most powerful Jedi. Then again, the other Jedi were arrogant in their own ways, including Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 5, 2012
  14. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Anakin did not have to say a word about being the Chosen One. His actions showed how he felt. He stands before the Jedi Council and starts to go off about how it is "Outrageous that he is on the Council and not a Master". When Obi-Wan and Anakin are alone he tells Obi-Wan it is a disgrace to be on the Council and not be a Master. Then Obi-Wan says "it is what you wanted." He had to talk him down. Anakin often acted as though it did not matter what anyone said to him.

    When Obi-Wan and Anakin face Dooku together for the first time Obi-Wan says "We will take him together." In which Anakins reply is "Im taking him now!" Then he unceremoniously gets a heavy dose of Force Lightning.

    This reminds me of the conversation that was had between Yoda and Luke in Return of the Jedi. Yoda tells Luke that it is unfortunate that he found out that Vader was his father in the manner in which he did because he was not ready for the burden which was huge. A ten year old non trained Force sensitive hearing a Jedi Master tell the entire Jedi Council that he is The Chosen One is not a burden a ten year old is ready for.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 5, 2012
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  15. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I've never understood the problem with this line.

    Anakin knows it's true, so obviously logic suggests that Mace's trust will soon follow. If Mace's trust matters to Anakin at all, Mace is serving it up to him on a platter by asking him to perform a relatively simple task. Imagine the praise Anakin would have gotten after Mace came back from killing the Sith. Really, Anakin has a chance to come off as a hero here and blows it.

    I'm aware that Mace comes off as distrustful of Anakin with that line, but the solution to that is simple.

    I understand that Anakin just couldn't leave it alone, I'm not arguing that, but I don't see a problem with Mace's words and I don't think they gave Anakin any cause to disobey, in fact Mace gave him positive reinforcement. I don't think Mace's words played any role in Anakin leaving the chambers at all, it was all about saving Padme.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 5, 2012
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  16. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    totally agreed

    one of the only times Windu came across as likable
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I didn't realize that Mace was perceived as "unlikeable" to many SW fans. Why? He was more opened to the idea of Anakin being the Chosen One than Yoda ever was. In fact, his acceptance and later rejection of the idea seemed like a mirror reflection of Obi-Wan's earlier reluctance and later acceptance.




    That had nothing to do with Anakin being aware of his "Chosen One" status. Anakin thought that all members of the Jedi Council immediately assume the status of "Master".




    I don't buy the argument that Anakin gave in to evil, due to some special circumstances regarding his upbringing or character. I realize this argument is popular with many. And I cannot help but wonder if most people like to believe that only a certain type are capable of succumbing to evil. But in the STAR WARS saga, all of the major characters had the same potential as he to succumb to their own darker impulses. If you're going to use Anakin's background as an excuse for him becoming a Sith Lord, what excuse does Count Dooku, who went through the traditional path as a Jedi, have? Or the Jedi Master who eventually rejected the order and started the Sith Order?

    As far as I'm concerned, no one is consistently good or flawless. Everyone has a monstrous side or is capable of making really bad mistakes. And I believe that a good writer is willing to accept this and incorporate this belief into his or her characters.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 7, 2012
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  18. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    well, he was unlikable to me :p
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Dec 7, 2012
  19. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I completely agree that Anakin did not give into the Dark Side because of his upbringing (elements of that upbringing, i.e. his life experiences and reactions to events surrounding him, may have made him more susceptible, but his actions and choices are ultimately what led to his downfall). I would say that elements of his character not being the reason for his downfall is a harder point to argue because our characters are essentially who we are morally and are a result of the collection of our choices.

    Anakin chose to deal with his attachment poorly. It became central to him and resulted in his fear of loss which eventually overcame him. His choices to take action against the Tusken Raiders, to swear to save Padme at any cost, to follow Sidious to calm his fears, etc. were ultimately what made him who he was, not Shmi and her upbringing of him or his late arrival to the Jedi Temple.
  20. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Though I believe it IS fair to say that his early life experiences most certainly helped shape his personality and ways of behavior.
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  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Actually, most of the major characters have been guilty of allowing attachments to make questionable choices or suggestions - characters like Luke, Obi-Wan, Padme, Leia, Chewbacca, Yoda, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Han and Lando.

    And this is why I have always viewed Anakin as a symbol of the moral complexity that all of the characters in the saga and that all people generally possessed. I could never view him as some kind of special case.
  22. Ferus Olin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2012
    star 1
    To me Mace Windu's biggest mistake was not seeing Anakin's shatterpoint. He beat Palpatine and he had him pretty much covered. I know lots of people want to believe that Palpatine lost on purpose but he was still bested by Mace. The fact is that Anakin's arrival made the situation better for Palpatine. Mace Windu was also giving up the Jedi Code by killing an unarmed opponent even though Palpatine is a sith. He should have realised that Anakin was fine about Mace arresting Palpatine and just done that. But by giving up his code he failed to see that Anakin would intervine and he paid the price for it
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I can't really blame Mace for deciding to kill Palpatine, after all, he'd already tried to do it the Jedi way, twice, and it didn't work. But yes, if he'd managed to stop himself and ask Anakin to help him arrest the Chancellor, Anakin might have helped him.
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  24. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    I think it has been stated that a Fully trained Force user even without a weapon is not completely defenseless. Mace was doing the right thing by attempting to destroy the Sith. After all that is one of the things that Jedi do. It is clearly shown as Palpatine sends a ploy to Anaking saying "Im too weak help me please." Beyond that he unleashes a barrage of Force lightning and pretty much kills him on the spot. Palpatine was defeated. There was nothing Mace could have done in that situation.
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I agree and also consider, Mace went to Palpatine and tried to arrest him, Palpatine violently resisted arrest and killed three Jedi.
    Mace beat him and tries to arrest him again and again Palpatine resists arrest. If a cop tires to arrest a suspect and the suspect shoots and kills several cops, wouldn't the cop be justified in killing the suspect?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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