Making ROTS darker via Obi-Padme-Anakin 4 ROTJ payoff

It would have been good to see Anakin's increasing obsession with the Dark side in ROTS develop in parallel with his paranoia about Obi wan and Padme. After Palpatine first starts directly talking to Anakin about the Sith and their powers, it would have been really effective to see Anakin start expressing accusatory paranoia to both Padme and Obi wan about each other.

I know George decided to tone this part of the story down from his original vision but some of this was probably still filmed and then probably trimmed out for the most part altogether. It's still there in the last confrontation with Obi, 'you won't take her away from me' but this would have much more impact if we the audience were shown Anakin's growing concerns abut a love tri-angle as his interest in the Sith stories & motivations provided by Palpatine grow.

One of the reasons it would have been cut is because it would have made the film a lot darker. Seeing this aspect of Anakin grow in tandem with his dark side leanings would have been the dark heart of the film i believe, more so than order 66, the final duel action or the creation of the empire. But it would have been a good fit with ROTJ, as it is similar emotional territory that is not really in ROTS at the moment like it is in ROTJ.

 

While I wouldn't have minded seeing most of this, the whole implication of Obi-Wan and Padme in a romantic thing just doesn't sit will with me. "Revenge" was very dark and I do think it could've used just a very small bit more of Palpatine's buildup and Order 66, but a big part of Anakin's turn had to do with the very quick convincing from Palpatine. If he hadn't been fired up like that, he probably would've thought things through and maybe not made such a rash decision. It was clear, though, that Padme was nothing but loyal to Anakin and Obi-Wan definitely had nothing to do with her in that category. Anakin already did distrust the Jedi after thirteen years, as you can see after his reaction of being put on the Council but not made a Master. There was no time for Anakin to start getting uncontrollably paranoid before Windu was killed and Operation Knightfall started.

 

Yes, and Obi Wan's interactions with Padme were all about concern over Anakin whom he was sticking up for to his fellow Jedi. So it would have been a different kind of conflict going on to see Anakin being pulled away from those two by his own paranoia when he really doesn't want to be, at the same time as Palpatine has steeped up the pull of the dark side on Anakin with his Sith stories & motivations starting to take a toll on Anakin's professional life also.

It would be darker but also more sympathetic with what follows in the OT ( & be helpful to the general audience in opening up the whole tapestry of the PT to the OT, serving as the hub of a whole lot of other threads weaving through out the films. )

 

Although interesting, I'm glad that it wasn't included (at least, specifically). I can't really imagine Padme (who is completely devoted to Anakin, with an incredibly strong link to him) and Obi-Wan (who doesn't like politicians and is the perfect Jedi; I can't see him having a love affair) having something together, specially since they love Anakin so much. And because I can't imagine them together, I don't really like the implications of that paranoia.

Anakin is paranoid enough in the movie, IMO. And the movie is dark enough, I don't really want it to be darker.

 

I think Lucas trimmed it because he wasnt confident in its ability to work. Even if the movie had made clear that this wasnt happening, it would have been odd. Its better to just make Anakin so possessive and so power hungry that he doesnt even want them having a professional relationship, because he doesnt know if he trusts Obiwan's loyalty to the Republic. Back in 2000 after TPM came out, my mythology professor had a theory that his turn would center around a full fledged love triangle between him Padme and Obiwan. But Lucas didnt go there.

 

it would also have the potential to give ROTS a teen-soap-opera aspect that would be rather misguided I feel. I think it works well as it is - Anakin's accusation of Padme being with Obi-Wan is more of a moralistic one than any romantic one. He believes she is siding with the Jedi and against The Empire, meaning himself. And I think that plays rather well.

 

The point of it would be to show the effects of the dark side on Anakin in his personal life near the time of his full turn. There is a hole there and alot of people think his turn was just a quick one in the scene with Palpatine and Mace, thus losing a big thread of the villain Darth Vader in the OT.

We see a lot of the effects of Palpatine's subversion of Anakin in his professional life as a Jedi which is great, but it's really the personal aspects that are the big issue in the OT as relates to the redemption, yet because there is a lack of the personal changes to Anakin as he is getting caught up in the dark side, many many people think he just flipped - and this detracts from the OT, especially the emphasis in ROTJ.

The personal changes in Anakin only are prominent after he has turned. The conflict with Anakin is only really given emphasis as a change in his professional allegiance to Sith from Jedi. Paranoia n accusations over a percieved love tri-angle when in reality they are his two closest & valuable friends, would give a greater sense of sympathy for Anakin's personal struggle & loss in his slide to the dark side.

 

His turn is based a lot on the fact that he just doesnt want to admit that what he did was wrong. He is too pridefull to admit it and therefore rationalizes all of his actions. This wasnt what I would have come up with if I was making the movie, but I think I have grown to like it a lot. And Hayden sells it well with his acting. Maybe its just me, but if you look deep into Hayden's eyes after his turn, you can tell he doesnt really beleive what he is saying. The thing I like most about it is that it makes his redemption in ROTJ a lot more believable. (One of the things I always used to hate about ROTJ is that Vader's redemption seemed forced and contrived. Even though he was a bit more of a softy for the entire movie, it just was too sudden.) Now it makes more sense with ROTS.

 

"It would have been good to see Anakin's increasing obsession with the Dark side in ROTS develop in parallel with his paranoia about Obi wan and Padme. After Palpatine first starts directly talking to Anakin about the Sith and their powers, it would have been really effective to see Anakin start expressing accusatory paranoia to both Padme and Obi wan about each other. "

Like Anakin thinking they had a thing going on & this contributes to his choosing the Darkside? No, that would cheapen his turn & turn it into an episode of General Hospital.

If anything, I would have liked if after his conversation with Palps in the opera house, Anakin goes back to the Temple and starts to research the Sith. maybe even come across a Sith Holocron stored in the Temple. And his exploration coupled with Palpatine's efforts increase his interest in the Darkside.

 

Nope!

Anakin's increasing slide to the darkside shown in tandem with him developing new unfounded fears about an possible love relationship between Padme and Obi from his point of view, with him becoming accusatory towards both with unfounded suspicions which he is shown as regretting after expressing but he can't help himself & they still grow.

This juxtaposed with Obi sticking up for him with the Jedi, Padme and Obi having concerned discussions trying to help Anakin, and Anakin trying to get into the Jedi records for info on Palpatine's stories to save Padme, would show the personal toll on Anakin's personal life near before his turn as "the good man who was your father was destroyed", or how ever Obi put it in ROTJ!

 

Nah, I don't think Anakin would come to that conclusion about them having a romantic involvenent. He knows that Padme's love for him is rock solid. The only time he showed jealousy was when she had to cozy up to an ex-flame to spy on him. And he's sure OB1 wouldn't do that nor has feelings for her.

In that one scene where he & Padme are in the apartment & he has that vision, he asks if OB1 had been there. When he says she had, he doesn't go off into that direction.

 

"we don't need his (OBi's) help"

rock solid...sure Obi wouldn't do that:
"you brought him here to kill me......you won't take her away from me..."

He knew Obi had been there but Padme hadn't told him.... hence he had to ask her what about...

"the jedi don't trust me..."

 

True, but the first doesn't show any animosity. He's just stating that they don't need OB1's help.

The second was AFTER he turned to the Darkside. Anakin is now a Sith & OB1 is a Jedi. Enemies(though moments later he did try to give OB1 an out) . Padme just expressed her disappointment at what he did & is doing. So seeing OB1 there just adds to his hurt. Doesn't mean he thinks there's any hanky-panky between them.

By taking her away from him He doesn't mean romantically. He means to turn her against him. But as OB1 pointed out he already did tha with his actions.

And he's was right, the Jedi didn't trust him.

If a friend of yours stopped by your house. With you not there but your significant other is there, of course you r going to ask why they came over. Doesn't mean there was anything going on, you just wanted to know what that person needed.

 

Yeah, that's what we have AotC for!

 

1) Seems more dismissive than that to me
2) Is an aspect of what i'm saying, there is a big personal gap in Anakin early after the turn per ROTS final 3rd of film and during the end process of his turning re:first two thirdish of ROTS
3) Well, bringing Obi to kill him is abit more than Padme just expressing disappointment... you'd hope!
4) It could do very easily with the thread POV reflected in the film
5)Well if my friend isn't suppose to know about us, and my other best friend is the biggest darkside user that a galaxy has known in a long long time, i might be disposed to going down some rather more paranoid paths than just, "Oh what a coincidence...anyhow, regarding the political situation"

 

First off, That was Anakin's assumption based on the fact that he was now a Sith & OB1was a Jedi. After whst he had done and the fact that he was now Sith seeing OB1, a Jedi, he automatically assumed Padme betrayed him. But that doesn't mean he thought they had a thing.
Anakin knows the game: Jedi & Sith are mortal enemies. So seeing OB1,a Jedi, of course he's gonna freak.

Secondly, the point of my example is that Anakin trust Padme & OB1. At that point & time, he probably feels they're the only ones he can trust. So his asking the purpose of his visit was just to see what he wanted. Also, he wasn't the most powerful Darkside user yet. He was still good 'ol Anni, hero of the Republic, and someone they loved.

If his remark was dismissive, I think is was bc Anakin was still smarting over things going on betewwn he & the Council.

 

seriously though, say what we might about certain elements of the execution in that plot-strand, i don't think it ever comes across as being like a teen-soap-opera. they are essentially teens, yes. but its more classical in its style... and deliberately so. actually, had it played like a teen-soap-opera, i think more of your average joes would have bought it as a "convincing" love story". but again, it wouldn't really fit.

 

Teen soap opera might not be quite the right phrase.

"Bad high school production of Shakespeare" would probably be more accurate. You've got the fancy, elegant sets and costumes, the heightened language - and the flat, clueless line readings of the young actors, who WOULD be more at home in a contemporary teen soap.

 

Well i think thats a quite disrespectful take on two very fine young actors actually... but maybe thats just my opinion. I'm not saying either scale dizzy heights in their scenes together (Hayden certainly does the better of the two in my opinion), but those who have seen Shattered Glass, Life As A House, Closer, or Leon/The Professional would be entitled to rate their skills as beyond most would-be soap-opera contemporaries. I certainly do. Yes Hayden started in a soap but so did Heath Ledger and many other fine talents.

Anyway, a debate for a different thread I guess.

 

The thing is, Lucas DOES seem to be striving for stylized, classical feel in the PT. The heightened dialogue involved in this approach requires a certain stylized approach to the acting, as well. One can be a fine actor in contemporary roles but utterly terrible in a stylized form of performance. It's somewhat like acting with a dialect, in that you have to make the words sound convincingly natural as they roll off your tongue.

Portman and Christensen are not the only ones for whom this is an issue. Jackson is also entirely out of his element with much of Windu's dialogue, and thus he comes off as stilted. Does this make Jackson a bad actor? Of course not. It simply means that he lacks facility with this type of stylized, heightened dialogue so far outside his usual range of contemporary characters.

I've no doubt Harrison Ford (another actor who excels at contemporary roles) would be almost equally stilted if given such dialogue.

 

Agree. I have copies of Portman's and Christensen's other films, and AOTC and ROTS are not their best work by any stretch of the imagination. Shattered Glass is probably Christensen's best, although I'm partial to Life as a House. Where the Heart Is is probably Portman's best.

I'm pretty sure Samuel L. Jackson worked more with Lucas on his dialogue, I know he worked with him on the purple saber. And I was told that Harrison Ford flat-out told Lucas that the dialogue sucked. If that's true, that would explain why Han has the best lines in the entire saga.

On the OP, I'm glad that there was no love triangle. Although it would have added a new dimension to the Obi-Wan/Vader encounter in ANH. It was much better to have Vader driven insane by the idea of losing Padme and selling his soul to the devil in order to stop that from happening. The irony is good from a storytelling point of view. A love triangle would have been too midday soap-opera-ish.

 

I agree. And it works in the first film because you have a talent like Alec Guinness on board. Most others struggle with that more traditional style. Though I would say Natalie Portman does a brilliant job as the Queen in TPM.

Not entirely true. Ford told Lucas "you can type this **** but you can't say it." Subsequently he has retracted this in a rather self-depricating, "shows how much i know" kind of way, given the success of the film. And I'm not sure this was so much at his own lines but more at the tougher, fantasy-opera, expositional dialogue that Kenobi has for example. Though I do remember him also saying "its a bit of trick to say 'it'll take just a few moments to get the co-ordinates from the nava-computer'" Ford's lines were not altered specifically because of his complaints as far as I know. But Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz certainly did rewrites in the build up to the movie going into production that may account for some of the more day-to-day, off-the-cuff, conversational dialogue that Solo gets.