Male reproductive rights

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Espaldapalabras, May 19, 2010.

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  1. Darth_Smileyface Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2004
    star 2
    I think you've missed the point of this thread wannasee. The situation as it exists now is that women don't have to be held accountable for their actions if they don't want to, but men do. I think everyone agrees that the world would be a better place if everyone just took accountability for their actions.
  2. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    For what it's worth, I'm not in favor of the current system of abortion as it is set up.

    I don't support abortion after the first trimester for any reason other than to save the life of the mother, and I would be fine with determining first if the pregnancy was the result of a birth control failure, although I don't know how that could be determined. A broken condom doesn't exactly leave evidence weeks later. I would also be in favor of limiting the number of abortions a woman could have to, say, 2, to deter people from using it as birth control, a practice I find abhorrent.

    My stance is not as hypocritical as you all are trying to make it out to be.
  3. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    If you believe that, then your argument seems to be that women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions, not that men should be allowed to not take responsibility for their children.

    Anyway, the whole argument for "men's rights" is predicated on the idea that the fetus isn't alive, which as we all know is an asinine idea.
  4. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    That is actually a pretty decent compromise. I think I was arguing with you about this 8 years ago. As a sidenote, I do think your stance necessitates a reversal of Roe v. Wade so legislatures can take that more nuanced and compromised position. But if it isn't your stance, it is certainly is the current legal system.

    Obviously I would like to change abortion laws first, but if we live in a world of on demand abortion, we need to deal with the logical consequences of that decision. Or at least when we have an inherently unfair and hypocritical system so that society can function better, we acknowledge what we are doing.
  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I think you've missed the point. The woman is held accountable no matter what and cannot under any circumstances escape the cost of an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion has economic and social and health costs. It's an actual surgical procedure that is not risk free. Giving a child up for adoption comes at a potentially severe psychological price, and raising a child as a single parent, also difficult. Where's the scenario where the woman is not held accountable?
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I believe the line of reasoning goes, "Abortion is easy and consequence free."

    Anyway, I think men get the shaft when it comes to reproductive rights. Mainly in terms of whether or not what they want. If they want the woman to get an abortion and refuses then he's powerless and has to support the kid no matter what. I'm not saying that it's unfair, just that it's inconsistent in giving the man a say in the pregnancy. I'm by no means saying this attitude is right or that forced abortions are the answer or anything, just that it's an inconsistent system that's setup as it is. So men can either opt out of a child's life or abortion shouldn't be practiced. As it is it sets up a double-standard. And this is coming from Mr. Pro-Choice.

    Granted I think the perfect late-term abortion known to man is cigarettes when the kid's older. So heey...nobody's perfect.
  7. Epicauthor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    star 4
    Regardless of your stance on abortion, I think we all have to agree that under the current system a double standard exists. Two people are responsible for the creation of a fetus. However, once that fetus is created, only one person gets a say in what happens to that fetus. The other has absolutely no options or input in regards to that fetuses future. That is patently unfair.

    We can cay, "Well, life isn't fair," but that does absolutely nothing to solve the problem. How can we, as a society, tell a man that he has no decision over his involvement in a fetus' future when his partner gets 100% of the decision yet they both had 50% of the burden of creation? We call a man who doesn't want to pay for a child a deadbeat, but we don't look down on a woman for desiring that same thing (In fact, we celebrate her right to choice). Double standard. How can we tell a woman "You don't want a child because of XYZ reason? Well good for you for making the right decision for you and that child's life" and the turn around and say to a man "You don't want that child because of XYZ reason? Suck it up and be a man, you dead beat."? How is this right at all?

    Is there a solution? Probably not. The simple matter of biology makes this difficult to solve. But in order for us to even begin to have this discussion, we have to acknowledge that the double standard exists.
  8. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    well, there is no way to solve the problem of "life isn't fair", is there? If there were, we would have solved it by now.

    Also, only a moron would say "good for you" to a woman who has had an abortion.
  9. Epicauthor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    star 4
    Oh please.

    So you are against abortion, I get it. But some people (including me) are pro-choice and I think when a woman makes the difficult decision to have one or not because it is a better choice for her and that fetus, she needs to be supported and told that she made the right choice. Whichever one she makes. Apparently, that makes me a moron. :rolleyes:

    It doesn't matter that we can't solve the problem. That's not the issue. The issue is the double standard society places on men and women in regards to their decision about how much say they want in a child's life. Currently a woman gets to decide she has no say. A man does not have that option. In a sense, he is a slave to her whims and choices. If we want to have equal rights, we have to find a way to solve this.
  10. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Yeah, shunning and disowning is the preferred reaction to someone who has just had an abortion. Amiright?
  11. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Well, "Good for you" is also not quite the right way to congratulate someone on a mastectomy, either, even if the "you made the right decision" sentiment is correct...
  12. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    I'm actually not.

    I know people who have had abortions (obviously) and it would never occur to me to say "good for you." It's a serious situation, and "good for you" doesn't seem like the appropriate response. But that's just me.

    When you meet a woman who has had an abortion, please tell her "good for you", and see what her reaction will be...

    Again, there is no way to solve the problem. This is not a societal/made-up double-standard.

    There is a double standard because men and women are different.
  13. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    I think it's impossible to have this debate without it turning into an abortion debate.

    That's because in fact, this IS an abortion debate.

    There are really only two ways to provide "equality" to the sexes with laws as they are now. You either make abortion illegal, or you make it legal for a father to opt out of parental responsibility. Short of somebody coming up with a 3rd option solution outside of those 2, I just don't see how it's possible to have this discussion without discussing pros or cons of abortion.
  14. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I think we all agree, at least to some extent, there is a double standard but no one seems to find a way to eliminate that.

    Should "dad" have input? OF COURSE.

    But in the end, mom and dad disagree, who gets the deciding vote - isn't that the problem? Should they flip a coin?

    If mom, dad is stuck with unwanted financial responsibility if mom chooses to rear the child.

    If dad, mom is forced into the entire financial consequences, into an abortion (which she may morally oppose) or into adoption (along with pregnancy related issues).

    So, in an unavoidable way, one or the other holds power over the other - is there an equitable way to resolve this?

    I just don't see how unless BOTH parties:

    1. Take responsibility for birth control and
    2. Draw on a pre-coital contract

    Yeah - that last in the heat of the moment isn't too likely, but still. ;)
  15. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Pulling out a contract and calling a notary might ruin the mood. [face_thinking]

    If only it were as simple as people taking responsibiility for their actions. I'm reminded of a line from Penn & Teller's BS on Showtime: "You know, science is amazing. It was only a few short decades ago that if you didn't want to have kids, you had to try not to **** as much."
  16. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Valairy_Scot, it is unequal, to be sure, which is why I think the father shouldn't get to DECIDE that abortion or adoption must happen, just that the father can divest himself of it.
    I'd point out that the mother's choice, currently, means the father is forced to go along with it, period. In contrast, giving the father that choice leaves the mother with a few options. None of which she may consider ideal, but it's not as though she has no choices.

    Not necessarily, as that was talking about an ideal situation, not what the laws should be.
  17. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    He says that the world would be a better place if people were held accountable for their actions.

    Is it possible that he means to say that we should make laws to make the world worse?

    Is that what laws are for? To make the world worse?
  18. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Where did he say that? I can't find it.
  19. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    You quoted it in your post.
  20. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    The part he quoted was where he said that it would be better if people took responsibility. That's not the same thing as being held responsible by outside forces.
  21. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    You think he means that it would better if people took responsibility for their actions, but since they don't, nobody should be able to force them?

    You really think that's his position?
  22. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Now that enters speculation, but I don't think it's an impossible position.

    Particularly as I'd say that I think it would be better if parents took full responsibility for their actions, even though I fully support abortion being legal and an option for the father to give up his parental rights and responsibilities within a limited time frame.
  23. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    I don't understand what your point was.

    Anyway, if your sister got knocked up, you wouldn't be supporting the guy's right to leave her and dry. Be serious.
  24. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I'd support a legal right to do so, yes.
  25. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    There are men who don't take care of their children already. What do you think of them?
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