Full Series Mandalore

I definitely agree with the darksaber being a symbol of Death Watch leadership. Whether you're talking canon, EU or both, that's always been the way it's been shown.

As far as "secret Mand'alor"? That's just such a weird concept to me, that I don't really know what to say about it.

But you're right, "Secret Mandalore" was a title invented by the Death Watch, in opposition to the accepted Mand'alor.

And Tor Vizsla gives us a good idea as to how the people of Death Watch looked at this topic:

"Because we were willing to die for our cause, we became the Death Watch, led by the Secret Mandalores. To ensure we would be led by the most powerful, we decreed that any warrior could challenge the Secret Mandalore for leadership of Death Watch. And as our symbol of authority we chose the Darksaber, an ancient weapon liberated from the Jedi long ago."

So, even Vizsla acknowledges that both the title of "Secret Mandalore" and the Darksaber equate with "leadership of Death Watch" (and not the whole of the people of Mandalore).

But in its simplest form, my position is largely that either the title of Mand'alor means the leader accepted and acknowledged by the population of Mandalore at-large, or it doesn't.


Oh, and I agree that, with where we left off with TCW, even though Maul was pulling the strings behind the scenes (before Sidious, at least), as far as the people are concerned, Almec would be the closest thing to Mand'alor (and Maul, "Secret Mandalore").

After the SOD story line, I have to wonder where this all leaves us. Maul's power base had largely abandoned him, but it would seem that the Death Watch (and Almec) was still with him.


Anyhow, this discussion is representative of what is a such a big part of the charm of Mandalorian culture. I'd love to see it all incorporated back into the canon, somehow. I know a novel may be the most likely way, but how cool would a Mandalorian feature film be?

 

It would be great and as I think you realize Pre was The true Mand'alor not secret after his overthrow of Satine for a short time.

 

I think that, for one glorious, shining (and fleeting) moment, Pre Vizsla largely fit the bill as Mand'alor. Yep.





You know what would be really, really cool? If Dave Filoni (who we know is an EU supporter) found a way to get the term "Mand'alor" into the canon during an episode of Rebels. Maybe during that Sabine-focused episode we all know has to be coming?

You know what would be extra-sweet? If we even learn who the people of Mandalore now consider Mand'alor. Bo-Katan Kryze? That would be cool.

But as an EU lover, I'd love to see Fenn Shysa! He should get a mention and get back in the canon, too.

 

That would be amazing. Maybe; if Sabine does mention her home world and Mand'alor. And it is Bo-Katan, she can say that she only ever met her once. What if; since her hemet is a modified Nite Owl one, she got the helmet from her instead? I mean, assuming that Sabine didn't receive her helmet from her mother.

 

It actually makes me sad for all the work he did to bring back the culture he was only the planets leader for so short a time even though he was evil but then again I would not really consider anyone who follows the old Mando ways good per say more morally gray.

 

It actually makes me sad for all the work he did to bring back the culture he was only the planets leader for so short a time even though he was evil but then again I would not really consider anyone who follows the old Mando ways good per say more morally gray.[/quote]Yeah, he sure worked a long time (and killed a lot of people) to get his brass ring, only to lose it, straightaway.

Well, that's what happens when you fail to see the guy you're working with for what he really is, I guess. Though the Ming-Po on Carlac would surely say Vizsla was the scourge of the galaxy, Maul is a butcher on a whole different level. The dark side does that to a being.

 

Yeah, he sure worked a long time (and killed a lot of people) to get his brass ring, only to lose it, straightaway.

Well, that's what happens when you fail to see the guy you're working with for what he really is, I guess. Though the Ming-Po on Carlac would surely say Vizsla was the scourge of the galaxy, Maul is a butcher on a whole different level. The dark side does that to a being.[/quote]


For anyone who says any of the Mandolorians who were involved with deathwatch in its taking over village days is in my books evil that includes you Bo Katan.

 

Jedi Knight Fett

Sure. What they did wasn't right. But perhaps Bo has learned from that mistake; should she show up in Rebels. People grow and change, at least in terms of right and wrong.

 

Yes they can it will be interesting to see if she does.

 

Yeah. That's why I'm hoping she'll show up in Rebels.

 

Jedi Knight Fett

First, sorry that I screwed up the quote tree (and didn't notice it in time to fix it before the edit window ran out).

Anyway, you're darned right.

I've seen an awful lot of folks here who want to hold Bo-Katan Kryze up as a hero character. A "good guy."

Well, she was just as complicit in these acts as any of her cohorts were:





"Welcome to Death Watch," indeed.

And to be sure, I understand the popularity of the character. It's partly because she's a bit "morally grey," as you put it, that she's an interesting study. And -- short of Sidious, himself -- I don't think anyone in the GFFA is necessarily beyond redemption.

That said, Kryze only began her transformation after the death of her leader (right up to that point, she was still scheming murderous plans with Pre, with a wicked smile on her face and a glint in her eye). If he hadn't died, I cannot help but wonder whether she'd still be right at Pre's side:




But again, I get it! I like her, too (and I want to see more of her story).

I think that the death of her sister, Satine (to say nothing of the all-out warfare/eventual subjugation by the Empire she helped to usher-in to her home world), may really be the thing which winds up hitting her the hardest, and may be the impetus for some radical change in her life.

But let's not kid ourselves into looking at her through rose-colored glasses. The woman is a war criminal with a history of terrorism and murder on her hands. No matter how hard Pre Vizsla may have tried to hand-wave the actions of Death Watch, there is no good excuse for murdering innocents and burning down entire villages.

As the moral of "The Lawless" (the last episode of TCW we saw Bo-Katan appeared in) says: Morality separates heroes from villains.

 

Here is a question it was always part of the plan to kill Satine right so why would it change Bo Katan if she new it was part of the deal.

If anything I think Pre's Death would have had more of an impact on her.

 

That's a good point. Though maybe Vizsla fed Bo-Katan some sort of "your sister can retire to a peaceful exile" line?

Who can say? If she really wanted her sister dead, though, why would Bo-Katan free Satine? Or why not free her and then kill her?

I don't know. Vizsla was already gone by that point, so everything, all of her plans, were likely out the window.

As much as I stump for not forgetting her crimes, I did feel that a kind of transformation may have been underway by the time we last saw Bo-Katan (whatever the impetus).

 

Jedi Knight Fett

Perhaps it was the loss of both of them that was the starting point for Bo to question what she had been doing.

Trebor Sabreon

I wonder what she would have been like in the Bo-Katan/Ahsoka arc? I mean, in terms of her changing and such. Do you think Ahsoka would have brought up the villagers?

 

If we ever see Mandolore after the Empire leaves I would love to see a statue of Pre because I am going to say that the Majority of The Mandolorians will credit him with bring back there culture and being the first True Mand'olar in over 100 years.

 

It makes me awfully suspicious.

I have to believe that Tano, even after all she had been through, would have absolutely zero sympathy for what went down on Carlac. If anything, I suppose any potential team-up between the two might suggest that Ahsoka was able to sense some kind of a genuine change in Kryze.

Either that, or Tano recognized that the pair absolutely had to work together in order to accomplish some kind of greater good (ala Ventress).

I still think the biggest question arising form that concept art is how the heck Ahsoka Tano, at that point in her story, would be in a position to appoint Bo-Katan Kryze well... anything.

 

And if Ashoka is appointing her on the behalf of anyone its the Republic. Witch makes zero sense since why would Kryze lead her people on behalf of her Enemies.

 

Unless Kryze is in a position of respect and honor among the people of Mandalore, and she decries Pre Vizsla, then I think you're right.

As far as the people know, Pre Vizsla died a hero. The man chiefly responsible for freeing Mandalore from the plague of thugs and marauders that Satine's impotence allowed to take hold on the system.

 

I am thinking should we make a thread for The Ashoka/Mandolore arc.

 

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?



Kryze needs Republic assistance to overthrow Almec? As Kenobi said, the Republic is coming, anyway. Might as well enlist their help now (and then fight them later)?

And of course, things would then take yet another turn once the Republic becomes the Empire.

I'll never understand those SW fans who don't like the politics. It adds so much to the story! They've just got to be handled well.

 

Perhaps she contacted Padme or Riyo to speak on her behalf and they contacted the Council?

But yeah, Ahsoka must have seen some change in her to actually appoint her as a leader to the people of Mandalore. I mean, Ahsoka isn't a bad judge of character for the most part. I'm sure she could tell if Bo was being dishonest with her or not, because of her force powers.

Also maybe it was Ventress who went to Mandalore for something and dragged Ahsoka along with her?

 

I feel like I am the only one who likes Pre more then Bo.

 

Actually the concept of the Mand'alor was thrown away by the new Mandalorian policy of Satine. Thus even when Pre Vizsla is accepted and feels like the Mand'alor, he has to keep it secret because Death Watch is secret till Maul came.

If you have red the book "Revan" by Drew Karpyshyn, there is widely explained how the Mand'alor is the supreme power symbolizing the might and the glory of Mandalorians and Mandalore. It's symbol was an ancient mask in Revan's time. Then Revan hided the mask to break the power of the realm of Mandalore. Then he gave it back to his Mandalorian friend Canderous, who bekame "Mand'alore the preserver". I don't know when the mask was replaced by the black darksaber, but it was always the symbol of absolute power within Mandalore and it's owner is the Mand'alore, the supreme ruler of Mandalore. And while the Death Watch controled Mandalore and it's associated systems after Maul's arrival, he can be considered the new Mand'alore. Almec never asquired that title nor was he supposed to have it according to the laws of the new pacifist Mandalore which he embodied too.

 

Satine was basically What if Cate Blanchett was playing Padme from TPM, not really sure how Bo became her militant and revengeful sister, they dont really look alike either. I think that was rather shoehorned in to get them bonded quickly and move the storyline to a certain direction. Star Wars seems to like throwing in strange family relationsips. Someone mentioned cosplay before, probably not far from mark. There was a conscious effort on the part of Dave Filoni to increase the female audience even more than what it had by TCW. Bo-Katan and possibly Ventress being changed to "good-guys" are likely leaning in that direction as he also created two female leads for the new show, Hero and Sabine.

Bo, is a cold blooded murderer and has taken part or aligned herself with Vizla who has tried many assassination attempts on Satine's life. She would need to be held accountable and punished. But see this as the same illlogic Lucas used when all of a sudden Anakin pledges himself to Sidious mainly for his aid in saving Padme's life while this evil man has been respobcle for countless attempts on padme's life and his own whether directly or indirectly. However Anakin did want to overthrow Siodus very early on and rule the galaxy along with Pade. So that character was always out've his wig as well.

Interesting piece on Sabine(and Filoni makes a direct mention of Rome as her name is suggestive of the Sabines and Sabine women):

Read more at http://collider.com/comic-con-dave-...male-characters-and-more/#sQaCufUhKMwGHTJt.99

 

Vorax

Right. Nice points. But I still want to know what drove Bo to become the person she was in The Clone Wars. I mean, no one is born with hate in their heart, so she and Satine must have had quite the falling out if it drove both of them away from each other. I mean, one is a warrior for Death Watch. And the other is a pacifist who was murdered by Maul and his Mauldalorians. plus,don't forget Bo tried to break Satine out of prison, so she still had some morals. Or at least, she was trying to change.