Mara Jade Critics Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by JediJSolo, Nov 5, 2002.

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  1. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Criticize: to find fault with : point out the faults of (Webster )

    This thread is intended as a place to criticize Mara Jade. Her creation, her hair color, her choice in men, her portrayal, her personality? You name it.

    However, due to problems in the past, there are going to be some rules and restrictions regarding this thread. I?m also going to give a few recommendations.

    Rules and restrictions:
    1. No spam. Period. That means ?Mara sucks? is not an adequate post, and will be considered spam. If that is your belief, try supporting it.

    2. Avoid EU bashing. This is an EU forum, and the EU is canon in this forum (I believe that is an established forum policy). Outlawing EU bashing is not in my nature nor is it forum policy, to my knowledge. However, if EU bashing becomes a problem in this thread, action will be taken.

    3. There will be no ?deathmatches? or fanfics allowed in this thread. They are inappropriate for this thread, and once caused major problems. If you have a fan fiction you want people to read, try posting it in the Fan Fiction forum.

    4. Obey the Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service.

    Recommendations:
    Be prepared to give page numbers for every quote you use.

    If you do not have the page number, but you have read the book, then try paraphrasing instead of quoting, and admit that you paraphrased. If someone asks where to find that part of a book, give them directions as best you can.

    If you have not read a book, I recommend that you avoid quoting or paraphrasing anything from that book, unless you have a reliable source giving you these quotes. If so, I recommend you provide access to that reliable source. If you can?t provide access to your original source, find a secondary source and provide access to that.
    Example: Your friend tells you a quote, and you want to use it here. However, your friend is not online, so you can not provide a link to your source. Ask someone in the lit forum to verify the quote. Assuming the quote is verified, use that verification as your secondary source, and be willing provide access to that source (post a link to it).

    Also, I think this should go without saying, but just try to support all your arguments. You don?t need to prove your arguments; just support them.

    I only ask that you keep these recommendations in mind when posting.


    At the moment, this thread is nothing more than a test. The senate has voted, and this thread is being opened on a trial basis only. This thread will remain active if all the rules are abided by, and things go smoothly (and assuming we can get DA to let it stay open?).

    I spent a lot of time in the senate working for this thread. Please make it work. :)
  2. New_York_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 6
    Please, please, please let it work...
  3. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Please, please, please don't make this thread dissolve in a Palpatine-like explosion of angry debates...
  4. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    I'll be happy to help with the look up of quotes in the *NJO* books, but otherwise, I am probably NOT taking part in this thread.
  5. LordNyax Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2002
    Yes! I wasn't fighting for nothing! And God knows I was vocal...
  6. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I'll be posting in here occasionally - especially when discussion has slowed down - because of many reasons (quite a few of which many already know ;)). Anyway, to start off, one of the most frustrating arguments against Mara is her "making peace with her past because she crashed her ship" (it's in BP somewhere - I don't have the book with me).

    I personally think that Kathy Tyres shouldn't have put it in there. While crashing that ship - which obviously is something more to Mara than just a ship - definitely shows that Mara is starting down the path of redemption, it isn't a redemption in itself.

    The second thing that I find very vexing is how she lectures Luke (especially in VotF) . I don't think that she knows enough about the Force to lecture Luke. Luke's compassionate, good, etc. (you know the list), while Mara isn't (at least not as much as Luke is). Not only does that not give her right to lecture Luke, there is also the fact that Mara shouldn't know the workings of the Force enough to lecture him.

    The third thing is that the authors (especially Zahn) should have showed more of Mara's inner struggle as she switches from dark to light. Believe it or not, even the movies managed to show that in Vader. [face_plain]The books somehow missed the mark by a meter.

    The fourth thing is that I would like to see more emotions from Mara . In the entire EU (NJO especially), we've seen what? - five lines that showed her having emotions, from her point of view ? And about Anakin's death, Jacen's death (they all, except Leia, thought he died)? We've seen emotions from everyone (even Lando and Corran) except her. :(

    The fifth thing is that I happen to think the authors show the story through Luke's POV more . (This is going off a slight tangent.) Mara isn't the only Skywalker.

    The sixth thing is her level as a Jedi Master. Seriously, I don't think that she's had enough training to become a Jedi Knight, much less a Jedi Master.

    I have more, but I have homework to do now. *Sighs*

    Take it away, guys.

    EDIT: Just to add some RULES to those that JediJSolo posted.

    Just to make the atmosphere a little more friendly, and less negative, please don't, don't, don't, don't come into this thread under the idea of attacking. Just think of this is a friendly discussion with your best friend.

    Secondly, try NOT to use words such as 'gushing,' 'worship,' etc., especially in conjunction with Mara fans, as those words tend to annoy many from both sides.

    Thirdly, make sure that you don't bring religion or any other such stuff into this debate.

    Fourthly, this is a Mara critics club. Don't turn it into a Leia vs. Mara Comparison club or Mary Sue Haters Club.

    Finally, can the sarcasm and bury it under a Hutt, as much as you can. What you find sarcastic might be taken offensively by others, and that is simply not good.

    I don't know how many people here buy NJO, but I'm not one of them. I borrow them from the library, and I simply can't rummage through my makeshift library for the book to find you the quote. So, be optimistic, and don't ask people to post proof unless you know that what they are saying cannot be true.


    EDITS 2 and 3: The bold lettering is hurting my eyes.

    EDIT 4: I just keep finding stuff worth mentioning.

    :)

    Aunecah
  7. Jedi-Angel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 2
    Ah! It's like a breath of fresh air - the freedom to speak out peace!

    Now, if we can just cut down on the Mara fans coming in here and trying to make us justify our opinions over and over again, we might have some fun. :D
  8. chiss_man Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I'm glad to see this up and running. Good luck to you all in here. :)
  9. Trell Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 6
    Hullo? Yes, yes.

    Er... Jedi Angel, thsi is Critics Club, read not haters, read fans allowed, read PPOR is king, read no Mara is one dumb Jeedi!
  10. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    This thread will essentially serve as a slightly less formal Mara Jade Debate thread.

    One can be critical of a character by examining their actions, it's not a pro or anti thread either way. All we're doing here is analysing

    This is not a Hater thread.
    Blatant Hater posts will not be tolerated.

    It's simply a place for everyone to discuss the character of Mara Jade.
  11. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Trell : I would think that "Mara is a dumb Jedi" is fine as long as you back it up with quotes. 8-}

    Aunecah
  12. Trell Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 6
    Touché Aunecah, touché. ;)

    Well, I would like to see you try to post proof of that. [face_devil] ;)
  13. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    In response to Trell's challenge (since he seems unable to infer the proof from my previous post ;) 8-}):

    Why is Mara a "dumb Jedi"? a.k.a., why shouldn't she be a Jedi, much less a Jedi Master?

    1) She gets angry way too quickly - BP, SbS, RD. (this single argument is enough to prove my points, but I'll add some more.)

    2) Unable to compromise - BP, SbS, and pretty much every other book she is in.

    3*) She didn't have enough training - We know that she had never been a full-time trainee at the Jedi Academy; we know that she "helped train Academy students," but like her life with Palpy, you can't know whether or not that includes using the Force. (I think.)

    4*) She was rarely if ever shown Force-training Jaina. :)

    5) She is not always open to the Force - BP.

    Note: *ed items mean that they are might be subjective.

    :)

    Aunecah
  14. Trell Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 6
    See, we were kidding, yet now, I don't know wether to seriously counter or not... ?[face_plain]

    Bah! to tired in anycase! :p
  15. Jedi-Angel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 2
    Trell, you mis-read me. I didn't say that Mara fans couldn't come in here. I wouldn't presume that. I just get tired of having to defend my opinions over and over again and not have them respected as such. All too often Mara fans demand (yes, demand) that we Mara dislikers ;) justify our dislike only to have said justifications either blatantly ignored or rejected as valid enough reasons.

    It gets old - fast.
  16. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    J A I have debated with a few Mara haters. I have recieved their justifications and understnad where they supposedly come from, but at the same time those justifications do not always make sense. Or perhaps their justifications come from half truthes. This is what bothers me.

    4*) She was rarely if ever shown Force-training Jaina.

    And Luke was rarely shown training Jacen and Anakin in the force. The war kinda got in the way.

    OWLC
  17. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Now, if we can just cut down on the Mara fans coming in here and trying to make us justify our opinions over and over again, we might have some fun.

    Well, I've been very critial of Mara Jade in the NJO, but I'm generally a Mara fan, so I might be here. If I see erroneous quotes (they've been posted before in respects to Mara) or unsubstantiated attacks (another common occurrence), I'll be sure to ask you to justify it.
  18. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    Aunecah,



    "mara didn't have enough training in the force to be a master yet alone a knight"


    Ah, but I think we do have some ideas that she did receive the basics. She was taught to hear the Emperor and probably levitate objects, etc. Plus, she obviously had training using a lightsaber.

    Basically, she learned the basics (neither *light* nor *dark*) when she was the Emperor's Hand. Luke helped her refresh those skills on Wayland (The Last Command) and on Nirauran (Vision of the Future). Now, while he wasn't actually "shown" teaching her, it does say that he was helping her.

    (I can find quotes later today If I need to)



    Mara did neglect her training - but I believe that was partially the fault of the author of the Jedi Academy trilogy - plus, she neglected it to remain loyal to the Smugglers Alliance.


    As for the Master thing, I have said this many times before: its more likely to be an *Honorary* title. There was a point in Vector Prime when Mara was "Testing" Jaina (the x-wing test) and saying that she had to trust in the Force to be able to get to them. In a way, that can be considered "Training".


    And, there is a line in Vision of the Future, where Mara does say that she is a jedi, sort of, until she finishes the training.


    They had a Jedi "union" ceremony in the comic book Union, so its likely that Luke finished her training in the weeks or months between Vision of thje Future and the comic where they got married.



    The crashing ship was not really a "making Peace with her past" TOTALLY, I think it was just a step in the direction of Redemption, not FULL redemption.

    Anyway, if you need any quotes, just holler.
  19. Elori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2002
    star 4
    Ah, but I think we do have some ideas that she did receive the basics. She was taught to hear the Emperor and probably levitate objects, etc. Plus, she obviously had training using a lightsaber.


    Those quotes can all be found in Heir to the Empire and Vision of the Future. In both books, Luke is seen slipping into the role of a teacher and that is where Mara either shows, or tells that she is able to do some minimal things in the Force. If you remember, she must not have been taught that much, or Palpatine's death hit her harder than we thought since she's rather poor at levitating objects, but good with a lightsaber. :)
  20. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    Im not sure if Ill be involved in regular debates here but I will jump in when necassary.

    Nevertheless, this thread should become very interesting very soon.
  21. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Jedi_Liz: Basically, she learned the basics (neither *light* nor *dark*)...

    I?m afraid that?s not entirely accurate.

    ?My Imperial training directed me towards using dark-side techniques for tapping the Force. I let emotions fuel what I did. I came here thinking Luke would show me new things I could do, new abilities to learn, but what he did instead was show me how to employ the light side. I?m still doing the same things, but I have a new fuel source.? (I, Jedi, page 217)


    Her training with the empire directed her towards the dark side. She let her emotions fuel what she did with the Force (which, IMO, is pretty close to the definition of using the Dark Side). She also says that her fuel source is now different; meaning that she no longer draws on the dark side.


    She used the Dark Side. Whether she was on the Dark Side could be a different subject?
  22. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    I guess I forgot that.....its been awhile since I read I, Jedi. But I think what I mean is that she probably wasn't a Dark Jedi "per say".
  23. Elori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2002
    star 4
    She used the Dark Side. Whether she was on the Dark Side could be a different subject?


    I agree :) I think she did use the Dark Side, but whether or not she was actually on the Dark Side remains to be seen by me. I've always been confused on this aspect of it, and arguments about this topic never seem to be able to help me decide 8-}
  24. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Jedi_Liz : Ah, but I think we do have some ideas that she did receive the basics. She was taught to hear the Emperor and probably levitate objects, etc. Plus, she obviously had training using a lightsaber.

    Like, JediJSolo pointed out, and as I've said countless times already ( ;)), it is hard to believe that the training she received from the Emperor was in the Lightside. Jedi access the Force differently than Dark Jedi/Sith. Whereas Jedi find their center, focus, and concentrate to access the Force, the Darksiders use their aggression, rage, anger, fear, etc. to channel the Force through them. The two are entirely different, and having training in one (especially in the Darkside) is going to, in fact, make training in the other all the more difficult.

    The honarary Master thingiee... In the Dramatis Personae, they say that she is a Jedi Master, and I consider that official, sorry, not honarary. Obi-Wan is called Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi, not Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, and hence his title is honarary. :)

    The ship-crashing thingiee... I'm talking about BP quote, of course. ;)

    EDIT:

    Elori : I agree I think she did use the Dark Side, but whether or not she was actually on the Dark Side remains to be seen by me. I've always been confused on this aspect of it, and arguments about this topic never seem to be able to help me decide

    Is there some way you can be taught from when you are very young about the Darkside, you use the Darkside, but you are not on the Dark Side? Take Obi, for example: he was trained in the Lightside since when he was very young, he used the Lightside, and we all know that he is on the Lightside. While there have been rare occasions when he got really, really angry, those were just that: anomalies. The same goes for every Jedi. Every Jedi is on the Lightside until they turn Dark (a.k.a., use the Darkside).

    :)

    Aunecah
  25. Nichos_Marr Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2001
    star 4
    I'm glad to see that this thread is finally opened, and I'm fine with the restrictions. They're tough, but fair and it's probably the best we can hope to receive in way of getting our old MJHC back.

    I will try to participate in this critics club as much as I can. I've already seen some really good posts here that I've enjoyed reading.

    I hope to see some more Mara "haters" around here. This thread could go really far and have some really good debates (or just rehashes of debates in the HC :p )

    Anyway, I'll be reading and replying when I feel I have something valid to say. Thanks to the EU senate, D_A, and a whole lot of other people for making this place possible.
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