Mara Jade Critics Club

I *might* be double posting accidentally, but I don't see my reply... so here:

Where Lucas say *that*?

 

Calm, down, Tiershon...calm down...clear your mind...a couple of deep breathes...here's some water...there we go.


I am infinitely calm. And this is a critic's club, not another fan club. i am criticizing. Everyone else is freaking out.

 

Yeah, it's entirely possible that Tiershon is right, and that Mara *does* in fact smell bad. I mean, maybe she doesn't use deoderant, and she's in the jungles and wilds a lot. And those refresher station things never seemed to really get you *clean*; I'd much rather use water. She's kind of a back to nature kind of gal; maybe she doesn't do the whole self-hygeine thing, and Luke just looks past it.

Just playing devils advocate here; I can't really imagine *any* Star Wars character smelling, because they're Star Wars characters. They're fictional. Noone in fiction smells except Toydarians!

 

Just playing devils advocate here; I can't really imagine *any* Star Wars character smelling, because they're Star Wars characters. They're fictional. Noone in fiction smells except Toydarians!

 

I'll bet some characters, like Face Loran, or Hobbie Klivian, smell really GOOD....

What? H'uh? Oh, um, yeah.

 

LOL!

 

Coota Mr Lucas said it and several TV interviews and I believe in a few written ones too when AoTC came out. I appologize since i have no way of getting you hard proof.

OWLC

 

That's alright. I've made several assertions without hard hard proof. I'll take your word on it, though of course with a grain of salt until I actually see the proof(as people no doubt take my evidenceless assertions, when I make them ). I feel that this is an incorrect assessment on Lucas's part, but it's his universe, and he can assess it politics any way he wants. I don't feel there is any weight of legitimacy to the Empire, as the only way that it came about was a war entirely engineered by the Emperor. A gov't brought about by illegal means is not legitimate in my eyes.

But apparently it *is* in Lucas's eyes, in which case everybody in the Empire gets off scot free as long as the Empire is alive. Luckily, the NR does seem to practice at least getting full confessions out of it's prisoners before letting them go, and they do seem to try unrepentant criminals. Better than nothing. At least the ones who defect for less than honorable reasons don't get any *more* than what they deserve(like in Aaron Allston's X-Wing books when that one scientists attempted to extort the Alliance in exchange for information, and failed miserably).

By Lucas's definition(if there is in fact evidence to back that up), I suppose you do have a legal leg to stand on. Though I personally find that assessment of the Empire pretty silly. But I've disagreed with Lucas before, and I'll disagree again; it doesn't matter, because he makes good films.

 

Palpatine rose to power through legitimate, albeit very manipulative, means. He became Chancellor because Padme called for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum, and then he received emergency powers when Jar Jar proposed them. Both times they were manipulated by Palpatine, but obviously the Senate liked and trusted Palpatine; hence him being elected Chancellor, and hence the cheering at Jar Jar's proposal.

 

I somehow don't feel that it's very legitimate if you *attack your own country* with the army you've been having your friend build up to convince people to do what you want. I mean, I'm pretty sure that if a politican in America used assassination/attempted assassination and his own private army to start a war with our own country in order to get what he wanted(elected, for example), he'd be removed from office and his election would be termed illegitimate. If the Star Wars world works in some crazy way I'm not aware of, that's fine, it's George's perogative. It just seems strange to me.

I mean, manipulating people and making backalley deals, that's what politics is all about. But they don't usually *kill people* to get elected, and I'm pretty sure you get termed as illegitimately rising to power if anyone finds out about the killing, and it had something directly to do with the elections. I mean, he basically tampered the vote for the Army of the Republic by having Dookuu encourage the Confederacy of Independent Planets to wage war against the Old Republic. Starting a war on Naboo to make Valorum seem weak also seems like illegitimate political maneuvering than manipulation.

 

This doesn't make any sense. It's circular logic: If the law could prove it, it would be illegitimate, but because it's Palpy's law, it wouldn't be, etc, ad nauseam.

Yep. thats how Palpy worked. Gotta love a tyrant!

As for the Emperor's propaganda working in the core, that's what I said. It worked on a small minority of humans. The galaxies a big place, Trell.

Yes with most of the populas in the core.

As far as the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook goes(since we're being EU, here), the Alliance was everywhere, in every system and every sector, including some worlds in the core sectors. I'm afraid you're wrong here.

Yes but was it big? Was a large amount of the populas in direct support of it? If so why was the fleet at Endor os very very tiny.

And where does it ever say Palpy's word was law? The Empire was ostensibly governed by a system of laws, the same as the Republic was. The fact that Palpy ignored them does not make them any less of laws. He created them to keep people in line, but they still applied to him, even if he ignored them.

No they don't. When your the Emporer you change the laws you don't like. if the law did not work for him he changed it. There was probably a clause: "Everybody except Palpy!"

You contradict yourself later on.

No... ?

But that wasn't the legitimizer of his realm, as it was with the kings of Europe. He also didn't mention it to anybody. He did not have a Divine Edict, he made it up. The first king of every realm is almost always illigitimate, because he seized power from some other form of government. Later on, after the system becomes standardized, it becomes legitimate to the people. Palpy didn't have the time to do this.

So, as you like to use, history has examples of this. Hitler was eleceted. Dictater, but elected.

This also just doesn't work on the fact that he didn't use the "Divine Edict" to rule: he used the governmental system of the Republic, followed by the Empire. He never once said he got a divine edict to rule, and if he had, noone would believe him, and they'd probably rise up against him. If he ever *admitted* he was of the dark side, the core worlders couldn't ignore his evil. As I said before, that small minority which was his power base *could* ignore his evil before, but this would make it impossible. This small minority, however, does not give him the mandate of the people, though he wished it did.

Are you calling the Core Worlds a small minority? The Core Worlds with trillions of people? The Core Worlds with a trillion people on ONE planet? Large parts of the Outer Rim don't even have that many people from what I know.


Here's where you contradicted yourself: according to your earlier circular logic, you claimed that Palpy's rule was rule. Here, you say that if they had known about his illegitimate actions, they would have gotten rid of him. Earlier you said it didn't matter either way. You can't have your cake and eat it too, Trell.

I had cake last night, it was good.
IF they knew that he started the Seperatist movement, he would have bee gone. Yet they didn't, all they knew about were his real legitemite means to power. No contradiction.

And I care because? At this point I'm just arguing that they committed crimes, not that they deserve to be punished for them. You just basically admitted that they did. Thank you.

Er..wha? No, I said that they do get pardond. You seem to say they don't.

 

Maybe you guys should start a "Palpy's Empire: Legitimate or Illegitimite?" thread.

 

DeJade_Vu: Maybe you guys should start a "Palpy's Empire: Legitimate or Illegitimite?" thread.

Very good suggestion, actually, seriously. Because there's obviously a need to discuss that; and if there was a separate thread for that topic (perhaps in SW Misc.?), the discussion here could remain focused on the actual topic of this thread, namely, Mara Jade.

 

Actually, we could try debating that in the EU Debate thread once this topic is done.



Aunecah

 

I'll PM DA about that.

Sounds like a plan.

 

I can't stand the way Mara names all her ships after herself. Talk about narcissism and vanity. She's had the Jade's Fire, Sabre, and Shadow. What's next? The Jade Sycle? The Jade Shoehorn? The Jade Spork?

And what's with her never wearing any sleeves? The only other person who does that is Tonya Harding.

 

TF, she named the Jade's Fire. I think Luke probably named the Sabre and if I remember right, Lando and Tendra named the Shadow. Maybe she is just attached to her maiden name. *shrugs*

 

I think it's totally conceited.

 

Tiershon's right, it is pretty conceited. No sailor or fighter pilot names their ship/fighter after themself. Not only is it conceited, it's also unlucky. It shows that the pilot is more concerned with his/her own image than their ship. It's like jinxing oneself. You name your ship/fighter after lovers, animals, cities, respected personages, *never* yourself.

As for never wearing sleeves, your hatred must truly no no bounds I really can't see that being an issue as to how I thought about someone. But I suppose if I hated someone enough, *everything* about them would infuriate me.

Maybe she grew up some place really cold, so in comparison, everything else is really, really hot, so she has to compensate by wearing as little as possible.

 

Actually, it just so happens that I have the BTEH comic lying in front of me right at the moment, and Mara Jade is wearing sleeves on most pictures in there.

 

I can't stand the way Mara names all her ships after herself. Talk about narcissism and vanity. She's had the Jade's Fire, Sabre, and Shadow. What's next? The Jade Sycle? The Jade Shoehorn? The Jade Spork?

And what's with her never wearing any sleeves? The only other person who does that is Tonya Harding.

Uh TF you are actually mad she does not wear sleeves? Oh and by the way she usually wears a jump suit. She has sleeves on covers in the bantam era. And the whole ship thing? Uh she named one whole ship. Her husband named the second and he did it to replace the one she gave up. It was a love thing. As for the third Tendra named it and thus someone who loves her named it something that was fitting. Are these really the things you wanna complain about with Mara? The naming of a ship and sleeves?

Tiershon's right, it is pretty conceited. No sailor or fighter pilot names their ship/fighter after themself. Not only is it conceited, it's also unlucky. It shows that the pilot is more concerned with his/her own image than their ship. It's like jinxing oneself. You name your ship/fighter after lovers, animals, cities, respected personages, *never* yourself.

Uh yes unlucky in the world we live in. Their world is fantasy. A world where a sword can cut through almost anything. A world where there are jedi. This is not the world we live in. They do not live by our rules Coota.

OWLC

 

Um, I thought the sleeve argument was silly, Obi, but that "it's their world, not ours" argument ranks up right up there with it.

It's quite obvious from remarks throughout the books that they believe in luck just as much as we do. The tradition that it's bad luck to name your ship after yourself doesn't change.

And it's still vanity in the utmost to something after yourself. Every rich man, every tyrant, who names their home after themselves does so because they feel that it will somehow mean that they will live forever in that name, in that place. You don't name things after yourself, or build memorials after yourself: you hope that others name things after you, because of your deeds.

 

Mara's next ship: the Jade's Ego.

 

It's quite obvious from remarks throughout the books that they believe in luck just as much as we do. The tradition that it's bad luck to name your ship after yourself doesn't change.

Belief in luck in general does not mean that they believe in bad luck by naming your ship after yourself.

And it's still vanity in the utmost to something after yourself. Every rich man, every tyrant, who names their home after themselves does so because they feel that it will somehow mean that they will live forever in that name, in that place. You don't name things after yourself, or build memorials after yourself: you hope that others name things after you, because of your deeds.

Isn't hoping others name things after you just as egotistical since you are doing things still for someone to immoratilize you when compared to doing things because they are the right thing to do?

Oh and Shelley maybe it will be the Jade's red gold hair I am sure you would love that name.

OWLC

 

You got anything to prove otherwise, Obi? I believe that you can use real world conventions within the Star Wars universe until someone says otherwise, as there have been many, many real world conventions used.

I meant if you don't want to *appear* egotistical. Someone who isn't egotistical doesn't need to hope for it, it just happens.

But thanks for confirming my point, that naming stuff after yourself or hoping for something to be named after yourself is egotistical.