Mara Jade Critics Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by JediJSolo, Nov 5, 2002.

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  1. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Well, just when I start to think, hey, she's not so bad, then I think about Padme and what she went through.

    Padme always wanted a family of her own, and to be normal. Then the man she loves more than anything goes away, leaving her pregnant and alone, and then she has to give up every personal dream she ever had for herself to protect her kids from Palpatine. Palapatine ruined her life, so I just find it repugnant that a brat that he raised to kill Luke would end up marrying Luke. I'm sure some would say that would be a triumph of sorts against Palpatine, but it isn't in my mind, because Mara didn't willingly leave his service, she was forced out. Ousted basically. She wasn't anymore enlightened due to the stuff that happened to her. She took like 15 years to admit she was ever even a little bit wrong.

    All I can see is Padme's sad face and think of how she sacrificed her very life for her children, and it wasn't so that that jackal could come and take over the whole family. Put yourself in Padme's position.
    In fact, the more I see Padme, the more the thought of Mara makes me angry. It's no coincidence that I started going from like to hate after 1999, with the advent of TPM, and the NJO. Two worlds colliding to be sure. I just can't accept Mara, she is like a CGI insert, she never was there, and I can't reconcile all this stuff from just a few years ago, after knowing the story in a certain capacity for 15 years.

    I never will accept that she was number one, and Vader was just a pathetic little flunkie, though he was the one that did all the work when Mara wasn't even born yet.
    I just hate Zahn for writing that. How dare he? I will always hate him for that nonsense. Mara could never in her wildest dreams hold a candle to Vader interms of accomplishment, let alone talent. It's just too unrealistic for words.
  2. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, Wedge, Tycho and Iella have met Mara, as have some other Rogues and Wraiths. (We saw Iella hanging out with her in Union; Corran made friends with her (sort of) in I, Jedi; and Face, Elassar, Kell & Bhindi went on that mission w/ Luke & Mara in RS). But they do not bow down to her image, exactly.

    Yeah, sorry about that. I started making one point, and switched to another. [face_blush]

    Shelley
    Yes she did. She was not a soldier in a war. She was an assassin for a dictator.

    An assassin for a dictator does not mean you commited atrocities.

    She did kill innocents, and she felt no regret.

    Name two innocent people she killed.

    Those involved with the Rebellion don't count, as they are soldiers in a war.

    Not always.

    So that means that I always have to focus on either the good or bad of anything? How would you feel if I, hypothetically, made a PT Critics Club and focused on nothing but the negatives?

    The point is, you have to take both the good and the bad when critisizing something.

    I said "practically" everyone.

    So one or two is "practically everyone" in the GFFA?

    There you go, dismissing evidence haters bring up.

    And there you go, missing the point. You act like the blemeless victim of harrassment. You aren't, and neither am I, so let's drop the "He Said/She Said" crap.

    The moment he married Mara, he began to lose his soul.

    According to who? You? Someone who has admitted that they haven't read much of the NJO?

    Give them time. The Solo kids didn't start to bow down to her image until the NJO.

    So now you can see the future of the EU? That's one nice gift you got.

    And the Solo kids have never bowed to her image. That is a figment of your imagination.


    Tiershon
    Well, just when I start to think, hey, she's not so bad, then I think about Padme and what she went through.

    Why compare her to Padme? They are two different people in two seperate times.

    Padme always wanted a family of her own, and to be normal. Then the man she loves more than anything goes away, leaving her pregnant and alone, and then she has to give up every personal dream she ever had for herself to protect her kids from Palpatine. Palapatine ruined her life, so I just find it repugnant that a brat that he raised to kill Luke would end up marrying Luke. I'm sure some would that would be a triumph of sorts against Palpatine, but it isn't in my mind, because Mara didn't willingly leave his service, she was forced out. ousted basically. She wasn't anymore enlightened due to the stuff that happened to her. She took like 15 years to admit she was ever even a little bit wrong.

    What does any of that have to do with Mara?

    Nothing.

    Stay on topic.

    All I can see is Padme's sad face and think of how she sacrificed her very life for her children, and it wasn't so that that jackal could come and take over the whole family. Put yourself in Padme's position. In fact, the more I see Padme, the more the thought of Mara makes me angry. It's no coincidence that i started going from like to hate after 1999, with the advent of TPM, and the NJO. Two worlds colliding to be sure. I just can't accept Mara, she is like a CGI insert, she never was there, and I can't reconcile all this stuff from just a few years ago, after knowing the story in a certain capacity for 15 years. i never will accept that she was number one, and Vader was just a little flunkie, though he did all the work and mara wasn't even born yet. It's just too unrealistic for words

    Except for the very end, that had nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

    No where in any of the SW books does it say that Vader was below Mara. You give her way too much credit.

    As for the part in HTTE when Mara disses Vader, that was her opinion of him. She didn't like him, and has no problem saying so.
  3. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Jansons_Funny_Twin: The point is, you have to take both the good and the bad when critisizing something.

    Criticize: to find fault with : point out the faults of (Webster)

    That?s in the first post of this thread (in fact, it was the first thing ever stated in this thread). The appropriate conduct for this thread is outlined there.

    Just one other recommendation:
    Avoid accusations. Look at every use of the word ?you?, and make sure that it doesn?t sound accusatory. Any accusation, no matter how insignificant it might seem to us, can be, in the very least, irritating, and at the most, inflammatory.

    What does any of that have to do with Mara?

    It doesn?t really matter, considering that this is a club, not an exclusively debate thread. As a club, this thread should be much more relaxed about ?topic?, IMO. But even if you disagree, the fact is that he did make a connection to Mara: ?All I can see is Padme's sad face and think of how she sacrificed her very life for her children, and it wasn't so that that jackal could come and take over the whole family. Put yourself in Padme's position.
    In fact, the more I see Padme, the more the thought of Mara makes me angry.?
  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    JFT:
    An assassin for a dictator does not mean you commited atrocities.

    Being an assassin for a dictator is an atrocity.

    Name two innocent people she killed.

    People in the Rebellion.

    Those involved with the Rebellion don't count, as they are soldiers in a war.

    Yes, they do count.

    So that means that I always have to focus on either the good or bad of anything? How would you feel if I, hypothetically, made a PT Critics Club and focused on nothing but the negatives?

    I wouldn't feel either way about your club.

    The point is, you have to take both the good and the bad when critisizing something.

    And I'm willing to take what little good there is about Mara along with the more plentiful bad. I just fail to see how the good outweighs the bad, or excuses the bad.

    So one or two is "practically everyone" in the GFFA?

    One or two? Let's see...Anakin, Jaina, Jacen, Leia, Luke...

    And there you go, missing the point. You act like the blemeless victim of harrassment. You aren't, and neither am I, so let's drop the "He Said/She Said" crap.

    If you say so.

    According to who? You? Someone who has admitted that they haven't read much of the NJO?

    Yes, according to me. I'm the one who offered that opinion.

    So now you can see the future of the EU? That's one nice gift you got.

    I was basing my opinion of the future on what has happened in the past.

    And the Solo kids have never bowed to her image. That is a figment of your imagination.

    No it isn't. And that's some gift YOU have, being able to view my imagination.

    Why compare her to Padme? They are two different people in two seperate times.

    That's for sure. Padme was unselfish and fought for the cause of good, even in the face of incredible odds. Mara was/is selfish and fought for evil, and enjoyed the power and prestige she got from it.

    What does any of that have to do with Mara?

    Nothing.

    Stay on topic.


    What, you don't like seeing how rotten Mara looks in the face of a true heroine?

    Except for the very end, that had nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

    No where in any of the SW books does it say that Vader was below Mara. You give her way too much credit.


    So do some of her fans, who think she was trained as Vader's replacement.

    As for the part in HTTE when Mara disses Vader, that was her opinion of him. She didn't like him, and has no problem saying so.

    And I don't like Mara, and have no problem saying so.
  5. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Being an assassin for a dictator is an atrocity.

    Wrong.

    People in the Rebellion.

    I said I wanted you to name them.

    Yes, they do count.

    No, because they are soldiers, fighting in a rebellion agaist the ruling government.

    I wouldn't feel either way about your club.

    That's BS, you'd be howling about it.

    One or two? Let's see...Anakin, Jaina, Jacen, Leia, Luke...

    Even if I bought the argument that they worship her, that's, what, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 people in the entire GFFA?

    I was basing my opinion of the future on what has happened in the past.

    OK, let's base the future on the past. Luke will be whiney and unbarable, Leia will be cold an distant, and Han will continue to smuggle goods.

    The past is different from the future.

    No it isn't. And that's some gift YOU have, being able to view my imagination.

    If it isn't, find me one passage in the NJO where the Solo kids bow down and say a prayer to Mara's image.

    What, you don't like seeing how rotten Mara looks in the face of a true heroine?

    No, I just don't like spam and dumb comparisons.

    So do some of her fans, who think she was trained as Vader's replacement.

    Who thinks that? I certainly don't. Give me a name and a post please, otherwise, your argument is worthless.
  6. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Name two innocent people she killed.

    People in the Rebellion.

    Those involved with the Rebellion don't count, as they are soldiers in a war.

    Yes, they do count.


    *mildly* But what were the names of those two people in the Rebellion...?

    I would like to make a point here. You say that Mara committed atrocities by killing what may have been innocent people, which were the Rebel soldiers. Of course, none of us know exactly what Mara's missions were, or even if she killed soldiers. But let's think a minute about Leia. In the movies, she shot a lot of Imperial stormtroopers--soldiers--and killed them. Would that mean that Leia is then guilty of atrocities also? Hmm.

    Read what Tiershon_Fett said. She didn't say "worships."

    Not in that specific post, but she has said that in a different post. Just clearing things up for ya...

    I never will accept that she was number one, and Vader was just a pathetic little flunkie, though he was the one that did all the work when Mara wasn't even born yet.


    Like Janson said, nowhere in any book has it said that Mara was considered to be better, or of a higher rank, than Vader.

    Padme was unselfish and fought for the cause of good, even in the face of incredible odds. Mara was/is selfish and fought for evil, and enjoyed the power and prestige she got from it.

    In VOTF, when Mara learns what an important position she had as a Hand in Palpy's eyes, it says this: "'You're too kind,' Mara said evenly, not even a whisper of pride rising within her at such a statement. So she had indeed had position and authority in Palpatine's eyes, perhaps even more than she had realized."

    But it didn't matter. That part of her life had died, unmourned, long ago."

    I don't think she's that selfish anymore.

    So do some of her fans, who think she was trained as Vader's replacement.

    Which fans? I don't recall anyone saying that, not even down at the Mara Jade Fan Club.

  7. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Wrong.

    Nope.

    I said I wanted you to name them.

    I don't have any names. Ever since the EU began to retcon Mara's past, the authors have taken care to minimize the bad stuff she did. So they're not going to name her innocent victims.

    No, because they are soldiers, fighting in a rebellion agaist the ruling government.

    They are people fighting against a corrupt and tyrannical government.

    That's BS, you'd be howling about it.

    Like you howl when people criticize Mara? And even if I did howl about it, I would not participate in it. I don't participate in the Bashers Sanctuary on the forum for TPM.

    Even if I bought the argument that they worship her, that's, what, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 people in the entire GFFA?

    It's nearly all of the main characters.

    OK, let's base the future on the past. Luke will be whiney and unbarable, Leia will be cold an distant, and Han will continue to smuggle goods.

    And Mara will be worshipped by more and more people.

    If it isn't, find me one passage in the NJO where the Solo kids bow down and say a prayer to Mara's image.

    Nice try, twisting semantics around.

    No, I just don't like spam and dumb comparisons.

    And I don't like being patronized and talked down to, or told I'm wrong because someone disagrees with my opinion, which is just as valid as theirs.

    Who thinks that? I certainly don't. Give me a name and a post please, otherwise, your argument is worthless.

    Here's the post:

    Ok, first and foremost... the Force is the Force. The distinction between darkside and lightside is clear thats true, but they are both the Force, like Yin and Yang. Things like moving objects with the Force, or jumping high, or other basic Force uses are not considered light or dark.

    Her training was NOT Sith training... and there is no reason she had to be taught "dark" powers to accomplish her job. You arent taught the darkside or the lightside... you are taught the Force with a bent towards malice and hate, OR towards helping others. The powers you use and what you use them for are up to you, the user.

    There are many beings in the galaxy with no clue about light and dark that are Force users. So no, Mara didnt have to be instructed in dark powers at all.

    Using the Force in hatred... no matter who does it, or why, is wrong and of the "darkside". However, if you could use the Force to kill out of a sense of honor or duty with no hatred... perhaps even a small sense of regret... it isnt the darkside.

    It is in this gray area that the Potentium Heresy (Vergere) was spawned. While I wasnt entirely in agreement with the theory, there were some truths in it.

    ANY use of the Force out of fear, anger, or hate is the darkside. There are some powers that cannot be used without one of these components. Force Lightning is one of them... thus considered a dark power.

    Mara was taught basic Force uses to augment her abilities. She was offing nobles, and politicians, not fighting Jedi. That was Vaders job... however, Palpatine mustve trusted her... because he tasked her with it finally after Vader betrayed him and he was about to die. Chances are he recognized Mara as a backup... maybe because of her force-potential and experience.

    Besides... who better to kill and naive mositure farmer than a beautiful woman.


    I bolded the pertinent part.

    I don't remember who wrote it.
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    *mildly* But what were the names of those two people in the Rebellion...?

    Does it matter? Would killing innocents be excusable if you can't name them?

    I would like to make a point here. You say that Mara committed atrocities by killing what may have been innocent people, which were the Rebel soldiers. Of course, none of us know exactly what Mara's missions were, or even if she killed soldiers.

    She was rooting out traitors for Palpatine. "Traitors" would have been people who worked for the Rebellion. Palpatine was a corrupt and evil man. I very much doubt he had Mara setting up day care centers.

    But let's think a minute about Leia. In the movies, she shot a lot of Imperial stormtroopers--soldiers--and killed them. Would that mean that Leia is then guilty of atrocities also? Hmm.

    No, because Leia was fighting against a corrupt and tyrannical government, one that destroyed her home planet.

    Not in that specific post, but she has said that in a different post. Just clearing things up for ya...

    OK.

    In VOTF, when Mara learns what an important position she had as a Hand in Palpy's eyes, it says this: "'You're too kind,' Mara said evenly, not even a whisper of pride rising within her at such a statement. So she had indeed had position and authority in Palpatine's eyes, perhaps even more than she had realized."

    But it didn't matter. That part of her life had died, unmourned, long ago."

    I don't think she's that selfish anymore.


    I do. She is selfish in that she doesn't give back a fraction of what people give to her. She acts all high and mighty toward people that have done far more for the galaxy than she ever could. She is selfish in that she refers to Ben as HER SON, even in the presence of his father, and chews out and orders around grieving parents with no sense of sympathy for their loss. She is selfish in that she neglects Jaina when Jaina needs her most, choosing instead to lounge around having sex with her husband.

    Which fans? I don't recall anyone saying that, not even down at the Mara Jade Fan Club.

    I provided the post above.
  9. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Nope.

    Yes, you are wrong. Deal with it.

    I don't have any names. Ever since the EU began to retcon Mara's past, the authors have taken care to minimize the bad stuff she did. So they're not going to name her innocent victims.

    So you have no proof that she killed innocents? Please retract your statement that she did.

    They are people fighting against a corrupt and tyrannical government.

    Whoopdie-freakin-doo. That doesn't make them innocent.

    RW example:
    Timothy McVeigh fought for the US during the Gulf War against a corrupt and tyrannical government. Was he innocent?

    Like you howl when people criticize Mara? And even if I did howl about it, I would not participate in it. I don't participate in the Bashers Sanctuary on the forum for TPM.

    Yeah, you just whine and complain about them everywhere else.

    It's nearly all of the main characters.

    Yeah, and your argument would hold weight, if they worshipped her.

    And Mara will be worshipped by more and more people.

    Proove it.

    Nice try, twisting semantics around.

    Your exact quote: "The Solo kids didn't start to bow down to her image until the NJO."

    I twisted nothing.

    I bolded the pertinent part.

    I don't remember who wrote it.


    One person believes that, not the bulk of SW fans, not the SW books.
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    She was rooting out traitors for Palpatine. "Traitors" would have been people who worked for the Rebellion. Palpatine was a corrupt and evil man. I very much doubt he had Mara setting up day care centers.

    But they are traitors, and thus guilty of treason. The punishment for that crime is death.
  11. Ginger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2001
    star 4
    Why defend her role as an assassin? It's like some of her fans cannot accept that she was indeed an assassin. What's so bad about admitting that she had done bad things that she needs to deal with? It would build character. Instead some of her fans want to shove everything under the carpet and pretend that it never happened, or make excuses for her. Let her have a past, let her have a life, let her have some substance. Let her break out of this one-dimensional character that she has become, and let her be real again.

  12. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, you are wrong. Deal with it.

    No, I am not wrong. Deal with it.

    So you have no proof that she killed innocents? Please retract your statement that she did.

    No, I won't.

    Whoopdie-freakin-doo. That doesn't make them innocent.

    It makes them unworthy of being killed.

    Timothy McVeigh fought for the US during the Gulf War against a corrupt and tyrannical government. Was he innocent?

    I presume you're trying to get me to say he doesn't deserve to be executed for his terrorist act. The two things are separate from each other.

    Yeah, you just whine and complain about them everywhere else.

    And who is forcing you to read my posts? You're the one who put me on your watched users list.

    Yeah, and your argument would hold weight, if they worshipped her.

    And they do.

    Proove it.

    Prove what? It hasn't happened yet.

    Your exact quote: "The Solo kids didn't start to bow down to her image until the NJO."
    I twisted nothing.


    Do you understand the meaning of sarcasm? I presume that you do, but are pretending you don't.

    One person believes that, not the bulk of SW fans, not the SW books.

    I didn't say that. I said that some did.
  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    But they are traitors, and thus guilty of treason. The punishment for that crime is death.

    Uh huh. So all the people on Alderaan deserved to die because they were traitors? Tarkin wasn't really a monster for having the Death Star destroy it? Leia deserved to be tortured because she was a traitor?

    I guess I've been rooting for the wrong people all along. I should have been rooting for the Empire because it was a legitimate government, and said, "Hah! Serves her/them right!" when Leia was tortured/Alderaan was blown up.
  14. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    I like how people keep asking for 'evidence' of her atrocities, despite her description as an assassin for the Emperor. The last time I checked, assassins don't hand out candy to the good little boys and girls of the galaxy. Shelley's right: authors *don't* dwell on this because it wouldn't fit with the current image of Mara. As far as the New Republic are concerned, she's forgiven for anything she might have done; it doesn't mean she didn't do those things.

    I mean, how could you even *be* an assassin for the Emperor and not *ever* be given a job that required you to murder an innocent person? In the Star Wars RPG, an approved EU source, and something I own way too much of, old, retired republic senators who speak out the Empire are getting quietly assassinated left and right. It seems like you can't throw a rock in the Star Wars adventures without having to rescue *some* senator who likes the Empire, but has criticized, and has, as such, put his life in danger.

    Or in the case of ISB Destab Agents in another specific Star Wars Adventure, these Imperial assassins tried to blow up a Quarren mine full of innocent Quarren, to start a war between the Mon Cal and the Quarren, and destabilize the Rebellion's best source for starships.

    Can you honestly look at me with a straight face and say Mara would *never* have had to do *anything* like these acts against innocents? I mean, she's an assassin! Do you really think she's going to be killing *just* the bad people that face off against Palpatine? There are only so *many* bad people who can oppose the guy. Sooner or later, you're going to get into the innocents. Is it really realistic that an *assassin* would *never* end up killing innocents, an obviously approved Imperial activity?

    I mean, c'mon! Reasoning, people! Take a leap of faith!

    I'm not even going to get into the definitions of murder and whether or not the Empire is a legitimate gov't, because I don't need to and it's almost a seperate conversation. You just have to admit that there's a STRONG POSSIBILITY that Mara was going to have to kill SOMEBODY innocent at SOME POINT in her career! I mean, so far, all the assassins I've seen in real life and film don't exactly pick off targets who are evil criminals. They kill political figures who, whether or not you like them, are pretty innocent as far as personal crimes are concerned. Unless JFK actually killed Oswald's parents or something.

    And Janson! Calm down! Don't attack Shelley personally. You might not like her arguments, you might think she's wrong, but if you attack her, she'll attack you(edit: Actually, she's been pretty darn good about not attacking you, despite some of the meaner things you've said), and it'll spiral into something nasty and this thread will devolve and get closed down.

  15. Devi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 4
    Tiershon: I never will accept that she was number one, and Vader was just a pathetic little flunkie,

    Pardon me, who did ever say that? Certainly not Tim Zahn (or any other EU author, for that matter). Look at the following dialogue from the BTEH comic (which was co-written by Zahn & Stackpole):

    (Isard:) So the Emperor trained her to replace Vader?

    (Pestage:) Replace? Never. Supplement him, perhaps.

    Where has any Mara fan, or any EU author ever said that Mara was Palpatine's number one ([sarcasm]Sure, that's why he made Vader his Sith apprentice, and not her.[/sarcasm]), and Vader was pathetic? Personally, I'm a Vader/Anakin fan, as are other Mara and L/M fans I know.
  16. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    An assassin for a dictator does not mean you commited atrocities.

    Being an assassin for a dictator is an atrocity.

    Wrong.

    Nope.

    Yes, you are wrong. Deal with it.

    Getting a bit petty, isn?t it?


    This thread was meant as a safe place to disapprove of Mara. I encourage meaningful discussion and debate, but not at the expense of this thread?s initial purpose.

    If an inaccurate quote is presented, challenge it, but always respect a person?s opinion.
  17. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    I thought this thread was going pretty well until tonight.
  18. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Shelley
    Why defend her role as an assassin? It's like some of her fans cannot accept that she was indeed an assassin.

    I acknowledge that she was an assassin, I just don't buy that being one makes her evil, especially in a time of war.

    No, I am not wrong. Deal with it.

    How does being a soldier in a war make her guilty of atrocities?

    No, I won't.

    As stated earlier in the thread, PPOR rules supreme, so please, prove it, or retract.

    It makes them unworthy of being killed.

    They're traitors and rebels, and it is a war. They are soldiers, and thus free game.

    I presume you're trying to get me to say he doesn't deserve to be executed for his terrorist act. The two things are separate from each other.

    No, I'm not asking about his terrorist acts, I'm talking about before hand. He met the same criteria you set up as the rebels, so he is the same.

    And who is forcing you to read my posts? You're the one who put me on your watched users list.

    I just find you so damned facinating.

    Prove what? It hasn't happened yet.

    Then why are you arguing it if it hasn't happened?

    Do you understand the meaning of sarcasm? I presume that you do, but are pretending you don't.

    When it comes to you, sarcasm and honesty blur.

    Uh huh. So all the people on Alderaan deserved to die because they were traitors? Tarkin wasn't really a monster for having the Death Star destroy it? Leia deserved to be tortured because she was a traitor?

    Alderaan was an atrocity, and wrong, and has nothing to do with Mara.

    And Leia was a spy for the rebellion. Under the law, she was eligible to be summarily executed.

    Coota
    I like how people keep asking for 'evidence' of her atrocities, despite her description as an assassin for the Emperor.

    But being an assassin isn't an atrocity.
  19. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    I just explained, point by point, why most people think that she's probably murdered innocent people. Which is pretty close to an atrocity, last time I checked.

    Declaring someone a 'traitor' doesn't make them any less innocent if all they've done is speak up against the Imperials. Of course, this all comes back to whether or not the Empire is legitimate or not, which I don't think it is. Soldiers kill soldiers. Snipers kill armed people from very far away. Assassins kill unarmed people from very far away(or sometimes, close up). This is the difference. These unarmed people are usually non-combatants of some type, and usually innocent of any real crime. Killing them is not morally correct, no matter whether they were committing 'crimes' against the Empire because they were 'traitors' in Palpatines eyes or not.
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I acknowledge that she was an assassin, I just don't buy that being one makes her evil, especially in a time of war.

    I do.

    How does being a soldier in a war make her guilty of atrocities?

    Being an assassin for an evil and corrupt man, and killing innocents, makes her guilty of atrocities.

    As stated earlier in the thread, PPOR rules supreme, so please, prove it, or retract.

    I will PPOR as soon as you PPOR that Mara killed no innocents.

    They're traitors and rebels, and it is a war. They are soldiers, and thus free game.

    So I guess I've been rooting for the wrong people all along, as I say above.

    No, I'm not asking about his terrorist acts, I'm talking about before hand. He met the same criteria you set up as the rebels, so he is the same.

    A traitor to whom? The US?

    Then why are you arguing it if it hasn't happened?

    I wasn't arguing it. I was speculating.

    When it comes to you, sarcasm and honesty blur.

    No, when it comes to seeing what you want to see, you blur the line.

    Alderaan was an atrocity, and wrong, and has nothing to do with Mara.

    I was using that as an example. According to you, Rebels were traitors, therefore Mara wasn't wrong to kill them. Using your logic, the people on Alderaan were traitors and deserved to die.

    And Leia was a spy for the rebellion. Under the law, she was eligible to be summarily executed.

    Jeez. I am flabbergasted by such a statement.

    But being an assassin isn't an atrocity.

    And being a rebel against a corrupt and tyrannical government that builds weapons such as the Death Star and uses it to blow up whole planets isn't.
  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I thought this thread was going pretty well until tonight.

    And no doubt I will be blamed, although it was JFT who chose to jump on and personally attack me.
  22. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I will PPOR as soon as you PPOR that Mara killed no innocents.

    How can I prove a negative?

    Example:
    I never went to the GFFA.

    "Prove it."

    How?


    You can't prove that something didn't happen.

    So I guess I've been rooting for the wrong people all along, as I say above.

    I'm not rooting for the Empire, I'm just saying that the elimination of traitors is a legitimate act for a government.

    No, when it comes to seeing what you want to see, you blur the line.

    Same can be said about you.

    I was using that as an example. According to you, Rebels were traitors, therefore Mara wasn't wrong to kill them. Using your logic, the people on Alderaan were traitors and deserved to die.

    Mass punishments (which Alderaan was) are wrong. Mara never killed millions to take out a few traitors.

    Jeez. I am flabbergasted by such a statement.

    Why, it's the truth?

    And being a rebel against a corrupt and tyrannical government that builds weapons such as the Death Star and uses it to blow up whole planets isn't.

    I never said it was an atrocity, or wrong. All I said is that they are soldiers, and soldiers fight and die.

    And no doubt I will be blamed, although it was JFT who chose to jump on and personally attack me.

    Oh, poor little you.

    Sound familiar?

    Poetic justice is fun.

  23. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    I wasn't going to get into this debate, I really wasn't, but I'm...surprised at some of the things I've read.

    JFT:
    I just don't buy that being one makes her evil, especially in a time of war.

    I'll keep my response polite here. I feel you are DEAD wrong. You want a RL example?

    My great uncle was assasinated (yeah, by an assassin [face_plain]) on a lonely road. His head was blown off while he sat in his car. It was an unprovoked attack. He only worked for the goverment. This did NOT happen in a time of war. It did not.

    Does that make the low life assassin evil? To my mind it does. I lost a member of my family, a good man, who was ruthlessly taken out merely because of where he worked. Is that not a cause to hate this person? Who, btw, wasn't tried?

    Mara is the same way. By not saying that assassins are evil (they take away lives that often don't need to be taken) you are condoning atrocities. It doesn't matter if this is a time of war or not.

    As I said in a past post, Mara killed innocents, by merely exposing them to Palpatine. Not all of the "traitors" she ratted out to him were guilty. She killed innocent people.

    Accept that.

    I know others are going to belittle and tear what I just said apart, but it doesn't matter. I've said my piece.

    When your uncle gets his head blown off by an assassin for his job, then you come talk to me. Until then, keep arguing points that I consider invalid. [face_plain] [face_plain]
  24. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    It doesn't matter if this is a time of war or not.

    Yes it does, war makes all the difference. Someone can kill another in time of war because they are protecting their government without facing judicial punishment. That's because war changes it.

    Not all of the "traitors" she ratted out to him were guilty. She killed innocent people.

    How do you know? We've seen very little about her past.

    When your uncle gets his head blown off by an assassin for his job, then you come talk to me. Until then, keep arguing points that I consider invalid.

    If that happens, I'll talk to you, and I'll take one of two stances.

    1) If it's during a war, I will be angry, but he'd be taking the risk as a government worker.

    2) If it isn't a war, then I will be angry, and call the death unwarranted.


    And no, I'm not belittling you.
  25. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Getting a bit petty, isn?t it?

    If there is hair pulling and rasberries next, lemme know. I will get the camera.

    OWLC
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