Mara Jade Hater Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by rngenzi, Apr 14, 2001.

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  1. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Yep.
    What few redeeming qualities she had were wiped out completely with the NJO, never to be seen again. [face_plain]

    I don't think she really had any to begin with, now, but hey, she probably did.
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Absolutely, Darth_Pipes .

    As I've said repeatedly, one thing that makes me immensely dislike Mara is how perfect she is.

    A daring, impressive pilot, an excellent aunt, the best wife, the best mother... knows everything about politics, almost always knows more than Luke to give him advice, blah, blah, blah.

    I think that it all stems down to Zahn liking his characters too much. Look at Thrawn - he was a cool villian, but he was too perfect. Do people like Thrawn not exist in real World? Sure they do. But the point is that nobody wants to read stories about them because perfect people are boring. As a result, the ending of the Thrawn trilogy basically blew off everything else. Thrawn's death seemed too coincidental, given over to chance, rather than the hero's genius and work (and a little smile from luck).


    OWLC and J_S : Thanks (for different reasons). ;)

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  3. Nephrite Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 1
    I agree with you on the Zahn?s Mary Sue-Gary Stu characters Aunecah_Skywalker.

    Worst moment in TTT was when the gang changed 3PO?s voice to sound like Leia and Thrawn figured it out. I was like WTF?!? How could he figure that out? Did he have a copy of the script near by?

    ¤Nephrite¤
  4. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    Here's another quote to "ponder."

    WARNING: Luke fans, beware!!!

    Vision of the Future, Timothy Zahn, Pgs. 166-168, 1998.
    "What do you mean, what right?" Luke bit out. "I was the one in charge here. Their safety was my responsibility."

    "Oh, come on," Mara said, the sympathy still there but with a tinge of scorn around the edges now. "Builder With Vines was an intelligent, responsible adult being. He knew what he was doing. He made his choice, an dhe suffered the consequences. If you want to start feeling guilty about mistakes, start with the ones that were actually your fault."

    "Such as?" Luke growled.

    For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. "Such as?" Mara repeated. "Well, let's see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourserlf a Jedi Master after les than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"

    Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no real strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. "You're right," he sighed. "You're absolutely right. I don't know, Mara. It's been... I don't know."

    "Let me guess," she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. "Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremedous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"

    Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How has she known? "That's it exactly."

    "And yet," she continued, "sometime in the past couple of months, things have suddenly become clearer. Not that you've had any great lightning-bolt insights, but a lot of the hesitation has disappeared and you've found it easier to stay on what seems in hindsight to have been teh right path."

    "Right again," Luke said. "Though there have also been one or two pretty impressive revelations," he added, thinking back. "The vision on Tierfon that got me in touch with Karrde just in time to hear about you being trapped here, for one." He eyed her closely. "You know what's been going on?"

    "Yes, it's been only slightly more visible than blindlingly obvious," she said dryly. "Certainly to me. Probably to Leia and Corran and some of your other Jedi students, too. Possibly to everyone else in the New Republic."

    "Oh, thank you," Luke said, trying to match her tone and not entirely succeeding. "That makes me feel so much better."

    "Good. It was supposeds to." Mara took a deep breath, and luke could sense her reluctance. "Look, you're the one in the middle of this. You're the one who has to make the final call on what's going on. But if you want my reading, it all started with that little jaunt you took to Byss nine years ago. Where you faced--whatever it was you faced out there."

    Luke shivered. "The reborn Emperor."

    "Or whatever," Mara said with an odd touch of impatience. "Personally, I'm not convinced it was really him. But that's beside the point. The point was that you decided--stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion--that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques."

    "But I didn't really go over to the dark side," Luke protested, trying to remember those dark days. "I mean, I don't think I did."

    Mara shook her head. "Debatable, but it almost doesn't matter. One way or the other, you still willingly dabbled in it. And from that point on, it colored everything you did."

    One of Maste
  5. Nephrite Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 1
    "Well, let's see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourserlf a Jedi Master after les than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"

    Luke should have added ?For not killing a b****y spoiled alleged Emperor?s brat the minute I had a chance!?

    Also it seems to me that this speech is Z?aahn?s way of telling every other author in EU that he?s better then them and that he can write better plots. Even if it was him who started the whole ?let?s-kidnap-the-twins-for-no-apparent-reason? thing.

    Also, you don?t become a Jedi Master after a certain period of years. You become a Master if you do something that?s going to be remembered or if you train a Padawan, and Luke did both.
    Also even if this ?after a certain period you become a Master? thing was true (but it?s not) I can?t imagine how would Mara know about it. I hardly think Palpatine teached her that stuff.

    PALAPTINE: Listen Mara, if I die and the Jedi order is restored remember this few items of information so that you can be an annoying menace to the man who is in charge of the order.
  6. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Also it seems to me that this speech is Z'aahn's way of telling every other author in Eu that he's better than them and that he can write better plots.

    Bwahahahahahahaha! YES, absolutely right, Nephrite! When I first read that passage, I got the feeling that this was a dig at all the other authors. Thinly-veiled though it was through a fictional character, I still think it was out of line and a stab at other authors. Let's not even go into how Luke shouldn't be getting this B.S. [face_plain]

    Even if it was him who started the whole "let's-kidnap-the-twins-for-no-apparent-reason" thing.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
    Oh yeah, he did start it, in The Last Command. [face_devil] Definetely a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    And also, about not protecting the twins, come on! Luke, as Zahn and both Mara keep saying, is not omnipotent. He can't predict everything, even if he has the Force. He did his best, what the hell more can he do? If he kept the twins in a bubble, everyone would complain. [face_plain]

    Sreya, thanks for putting the quote here, after I typed it out last night. :)
  7. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Nephrite , I completely agree with basically everything you said. I never considered that Zahn might be superiorizing himself among the rest of the authors until you pointed it out. [face_shocked] How could I miss it?!?!? It was righ there!

    I don't hate Mara. I merely dislike her intensely.

    But I HATE any paragraphs/dialogues/etc. that have her lecturing Luke.

    Who should lecture:
    1. You are better than the person, and you can objectively see what's wrong with what he is doing without pulling in the emotional part.
    2. You want to give advice for GOOD reasons.

    Even if Mara satisfies one of those two prerequisites, her tone blows off everything.

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  8. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Also, you don?t become a Jedi Master after a certain period of years. You become a Master if you do something that?s going to be remembered or if you train a Padawan, and Luke did both.
    Also even if this ?after a certain period you become a Master? thing was true (but it?s not) I can?t imagine how would Mara know about it. I hardly think Palpatine teached her that stuff.


    They defined how one becomes a jedi master? I must have missed this book. I know in the movies its never defined. I remember Anakin calling Obi Wan master, but not because he was a jedi master, only from the fact that Obi Wan was the teacher and Anakin the student. I do agree with you about the what Palpatine taught or did not teach her. I do wonder though how much history is known about the jedi. Who became what and when. I gotta admit though I always wondered why Luke was a jedi master so early on, when it seemed like they were so rare when there were thousands of them. For Luke to be able to claim himself a jedi master I always wondered what dictated his decision.

    OWLC
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    OWLC...
    That part (Luke's claim to "Master" (a real Jedi Master) was covered rather well in the Dark Empire prose/end-notes section. He claimed the title because he achieved Jedi mastery - hence he satisfied himself that he's a Master.

    ...as opposed to claiming the title of "jedi master" because the person is banging the head of the order. [face_plain]
  10. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. "Such as?" Mara repeated. "Well, let's see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourserlf a Jedi Master after les than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"


    This is probably one of the paragraphs that I hate the most - if not the paragraph that I hate the most. And I'll argue the case on the defense side:

    Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place.

    Running from danger and threatening situations is not going to help anyone. If Luke has to change the location of the Jedi Academy every single time there is an obstacle/threat, then he's going to be changing the Academy's location forever. Simply put, there isn't a place in this universe where there isn't a problem. Granted, this is the Darkside we are talking about, and the Darkside is a serious hindrance. The young Hopefuls might not be able to counter the influence the Darkside might have on them. But how was Luke supposed to know all this?
    Besides, he learned one of his first "true" lessons in the Cave of Dagobah - that you'll only become what you make of yourself. The cave was engulfed in the Darkside. Should Yoda have not sent him into the cave?

    Morever, Luke had an attatchment to Yavin, possibly because this is where he first "officially" joined the Rebel Alliance, and possibly because this is where he destroyed the Death Star I. Nobody can blame him for wanting to stay there. Anyway, as Mara was so quick to point out (at least indirectly if not directly), Luke was young, inexperienced.

    Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own.

    Hello?! Is this where Mara should comment on Luke? She, the Emperor's Right Hand, who so desperately believed in everything Palpatine said, the person who hunted Luke Skywalker, trying to kill him, because he "ruined her life"? What would have happened if Luke tipped 'turbolaser like [herself] the minute she started showing darkside tendencies of her own' (now that I think about it, I would have liked it very much if he did that)? It's Luke nature to try to give everyone a second chance. That's what he did with Darth Vader. That's what he did with Mara. That's what he did with everyone else.

    If Luke and Tsavong Lah are fighting, and Tsavong Lah suddenly comes and begs for forgiveness, do you honestly think that Luke would have slapped him a couple of times and sent him to jail (if not kill him) for all the trouble he caused? I don't think so. Luke would probably let Tsavong Lah go - though that doesn't exactly mean the New Republic would let him go.

    Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times.

    Excuse me, but how many things can Luke take care of? Just because he's a Jedi doesn't mean that he has a hundred minds and can be at a thousand places at once. Is providing protection for his sister's children also his duty? Leia is Chief of State; can't she assign a couple of bodyguards for them? The first, very effective bodyguards that jump into my mind are ... Noghri! Who would dare - and live to tell the tale - to kidnap Jacen and Jaina and Anakin with a dozen Noghri guards protecting them?

    And exactly how would Mara suggest that Luke provide protection for his neice and nephews, anyway? Maybe she is thinking Luke should babysit them?

    Such as unilaterally de
  11. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    ...as opposed to claiming the title of "jedi master" because the person is banging the head of the order.

    So you are saying Mara isn't satisfied? :p

    Sorry could not resist the joke. Actually if this is the case, why is it tough to believe that Mara is a jedi master. She does not lack confidence and thus I can understand why she is a jedi master. She seems to know a great deal about being a jedi and from what we have seen a rather decent control of the force. Thanks for the info Ghengis.

    OWLC
  12. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Well said, Aunecah.
    Very well said. :)
  13. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I really should be doing my homework, but that part of VotF is just so infuriating. I have to let out the steam that's been accumulating inside me, so here it is (be warned though, if you don't want to see why Mara is bad, then don't read it [face_plain]):

    . . . .
    You know, considered the education Luke received in the Force and the ways of the Jedi (which was almost non existent as far as the latter is concerned), how was he supposed to know that Jedi Knights became Masters after thirty-fifty years of service instead of just ten years of service?

    Let's see:

    Old Jedi got how many years of training before they became Jedi Knight? - around twenty-five years, judging from Obi-Wan.

    How many years of training did Luke have? - five ... maybe ten years?

    How many years to become a Jedi Master? - around forty-sixty (from birth) maybe?

    In how many years did Luke become a Jedi Master? - around tne.

    25/60 (to be extra careful) is approximately equal to 25/50 = 1/2

    5/10 = 1/2.

    The proportions match! So, what am I getting at with all these proportions?:

    YOU CAN'T COMPARE OLD JEDI ORDER TO THE NEW JEDI ORDER BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT TRAINING PERIODS! (Capitalized for emphasis - I'm not shouting at anyone. :))

    Does that mean that Luke will be able to compete with, say, Master Windu? NO! But taking into consideration the #of years of training he received, Luke isn't at all wrong, ridiculous to award himself the title of a Jedi Master after <10 years.

    Just out of curiousity, how many years did it take for Mara to become a Jedi Master after she became a Jedi Knight? And how many of those years did she spend chasing the Darkside, training students, etc.?

    . . . .

    The point was that you decided--stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion--that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques.


    Arrogantly? Please, the word loses its meaning when Mara uses it against someone else. If she is so insightful, then she should have figured out her own faults and weaknesses.

    For a comparison: If you are a thief, and steal ten thousand dollars, do you have any right to tell to someone else that he can't steal a candy? Not to say that stealing is right, but still....

    Still, I wouldn't have minded it if Mara didn't sound so cocky and ARROGANT!

    And from that point on, it colored everything you did.


    Not talking about Mara lecturing Luke - since she spent her first two and a half decades or so immersing herself in the Darkside, as Palpatine's Hand, shouldn't that color everything Mara did? If Luke is having so many problems for simply following Palpatine once, how come Mara doesn't have any of those problems? Shouldn't she have some close calls with the temptation of the Darkside? Shouldn't she be the one having this lecture from Luke instead of the other way around?

    "I made a decision to stop using the Force so much." ... "You got it," Mara said quietly. "Finally."


    Where did this all come from? Hello???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? What about the teachings of the Old Jedi Order? If everyone's so angry about Vergere's claim that there is no Darkside, then how come nobody even cares about Mara's claim that you shouldn't use the Force so much?

    What did the Old Jedi Order Jedi do - just tickle the waters? Is that how they became as powerful as they did?

    No matter what you do, you have to do it with absolute faith in it. If you're going to use the Force, have faith in the Force to help you, protect you, meet your needs, meet your requests, meet your desires. Only then will you become what you can become. That is one of the reasons why it is so hard to become a Jedi - because trusting some mystical energy that you can't see, hear, or taste, but only feel is hard! Don't use your eyes, they deceive you! ... Use the Force! Trust it to work. Trust it to warn you when there's a blasterbolt coming y
  14. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Honestly! Luke's "epiphany" that he shouldn't use Force so much is like a realization that he'll function much better if he tied a cloth over his eyes. He's using his eyes too much! They're going to get him killed.

    Although the speech you refer to was never a very popular part of the book for me, I did like one bit of it. The when using the force like a sledge hammer you miss out on its subtle moments. It made sense to me. It felt right. When you listen to music especially classical, some of the most important moments are the softest and most subtle. Where its a single violin singing to you or a flute fluttering by. You miss out on those with the drums banging and the horns letting loose. I by no means think these are unimportant, but if that was all music was it would not be as powerful. You analogy about tying a cloth over one's eyes can actually be looked at two ways. Your eyes are wonderful at letting you know what surrounds you, but its not the only sense you have. Sometimes other senses are as important or more important. If you were to blind someone for a bit they will notice sounds they have never heard before or smell things they have never smelled before. I was watching MASH not to long ago and caught an episode where Hawkeye loses his sight for a bit and from that has some interesting revelations. So no your eyes will not kill you, but they may also prevent you from seeing everything(so to speak).

    OWLC
  15. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    OWLC : I agree that you shouldn't overly rely on one sense. And yes, blind people do hear better than people who can see. But what I'm saying is that just because you can hear better doesn't mean that you should blind yourself. Of course, that's not exactly what Mara is trying to say, either. But the thing is you can either use the Force or you can't, just like you can either use your eyes or you can't.

    When it's much easier to simply use the Force and hide yourself, why would you go to the trouble of finding a lot of make-up and accessories to do it?

    Also, I think that Luke is far away from actually using the Force too much. Considering that the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order have been trained from very early on to use the Force, they would have used the Force much more frequently than Luke (because they're much more used to it). If they haven't had any problems with using the Force, then why would Luke?

    :)Thanks for replying. :)

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  16. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    When it's much easier to simply use the Force and hide yourself, why would you go to the trouble of finding a lot of make-up and accessories to do it?

    Also, I think that Luke is far away from actually using the Force too much. Considering that the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order have been trained from very early on to use the Force, they would have used the Force much more frequently than Luke (because they're much more used to it). If they haven't had any problems with using the Force, then why would Luke?


    Do you remember what happened to the jedi of the old order? Their ability to use the force diminished. The were destroyed and could not recognize a Sith around them. Perhaps it was because Palpatine could hide his nature or perhaps its something else. Perhaps it was because they were listening to music so loud they could not hear the subtleness which was there(one of those analogy things) :p. Its one thing we may understand a bit more when episode three comes around. Oh and is it easier to mask yourself with the force compared to makeup? Or is it easier to put make-up on and allow yourself to concentrate on other things instead when using the force?

    OWLC
  17. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Hmm... you sort of got me there. I suppose when you are looking at the bigger picture you tend to miss the smaller stuff, and those smaller stuff maybe the ones that will decide what happens. And yes, the power of the Old Jedi did diminish (though that might be because Palpy is so powerful and cunning and manipulative and subtle).

    But the thing is, the more you use the Force, the more you get familiar with it. And the more you will be able to find those subtleties! For example: Isn't there a difference between a novice cello player and an expert?

    How does a novice become an expert? By learning. How do you learn? By doing.

    Same goes with the Force, too. To learn and understand the Force, you need to use it. Isn't that the reason people who can't use the Force don't understand (in the case of the Old galaxy) and/or mistrust (in the case of the New galaxy) the Force and the Jedi?

    Besides, what exactly is the problem with relying too much on the Force, anyway? We rely too much on our ears. If we go to some place where it is all dark, does that mean that our ears won't work better? No. While they might not work as good as one who is blind (again, the novice-expert thingiee 8-}), our ears still do work better. The same with the Force. If Luke goes to Myrkr, his eyes, hearing, etc. is going to work better. But that's just one place.

    Of course, with the Yuuzhan Vong in the galaxy, everything changes. Still, with the discipline and everything else that comes from training to be a Jedi, they're better off w/o the Force than normal people w/o the Force.

    Besides, remember that Mara gave this lecture before the Yuuzhan Vong. 8-}

    . . . .

    btw, learning to concentrate while using the Force to mask yourself is a process of learning, too. ;) It has its own disadvantages, same as putting make-up on (for example, what if his beard suddenly decided to fall off?)

    Again, thanks for answering, OWLC , and arguing, and not simply saying: "Mara rocks. You suck."
    Aunecah_Skywalker
  18. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Practicing in experiencing the force is by no means wrong. I agree one must practice and use the force. But must they always use it in a grandiose fashion? That was the feeling I got from the speech. That if you continue to always employ the force in a fashion to where you let loose with your full might, that causes you to miss out. One can still use the force in a dimished capacity and learn from it. One can even learn more from that sometimes, while at other times one can learn from swimming in that warm pool of force and letting themselves be one with it. Its a matter of learning to do both and making sure you know when its right to use one and when its right to use the other. There is nothing wrong with relying too much on our ears when in a dark place, but we will not always be in that dark place. Relying too much on our eyes when studying a painting has no faults either, but you will not always stare at a painting. When you need to use those senses which you need to most, but when you dont need them spread yourself out. Or you may miss out on something.

    Oh and you could always use the force to keep the beard on :p . If the super GFFA glues fails.

    OWLC
  19. jadesaber2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    Interesting comments from everyone. If I may make one of my own...

    I also didn't like that passage in VoTF. I was like, "WTF?!?! Mara's telling Luke what he did wrong?!"

    I mean, sure he made some mistakes. He's the only full-fledged Jedi in the Galaxy at the time. His training has thus far been almost exclusively in preparation to fight the Sith. The rest of the Jedi way has, for the most part, been lost to the GFFA. He's bound to make some mistakes. Besides, it's not like Mara hasn't made some collosal blunders of her own.

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make was about Luke's "epiphany." When I read that part, I viewed it in light of Mara's spiel about Luke dabbling in the Dark Side, and Yoda's warning. "Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    The way I read it, when Luke dabbled in the Dark Side, its influence stayed with him. Not overtly, but it influenced him in a more subtle manner. That's what I beleive is the cause of Luke's confusion when he draws too heavily or forcefully (sorry, bad pun)on the Force. "The Dark Side clouds everything." I think that's what is happening in Luke's case. When he's passive in the Force, lets it guide him, it's free of Dark Side influence.

    That's just my take on things, though.
  20. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I guess, I'm off punishment.......

    Hi Guys!
  21. jadesaber2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
  22. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I suppose it all really depends on how you would define 'grandoise fashion.' Consider: the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order - while missing the subtleties that would have allowed them to feel the Sith and the birth of the Clone Army - are more powerful than Luke even though they have a lower midichlorine count and use the Force more than Luke.

    Luke is just barely trained, so he wouldn't be able to feel the subtleties as it is. If Palpatine were trying to take over the galaxy in Luke's era instead of the Obi's era, Luke would have found out that Palpy was a Sith when he unilaterally crowned himself the Emperor (unless somebody makes a blatant error [face_wink).

    What I'm saying is that you can miss something two ways:

    1. You are too unfamiliar with your subject. You don't have enough knowledge of the big picture to get down to the details.

    2. You are too familiar with your subject. You are so engrossed in the big picture that you breeze over the details.

    Luke is category #1, I think. The Jedi of the Old Jedi Order are in the category #2. As of then [VotF], Luke has had the equivilant of a 13-15 year-old in the OJO. Would you expect Obi to know much about the Force when he was 15? I doubt it.

    What I'm saying is if twenty or thirty years after VotF, Luke is still doing the same thing, then, yes, Mara is justified in saying that Luke is overusing the Force. But VotF didn't take place twenty or thirty years later. When you're learning, you have to immerse yourself completely into the subject so as to first familiarize yourself with what you're trying to learn.

    Another analogy:

    Everything newborn infants see is blurred. And black-and-white, I believe. The same is true for a novice Force-user: He can probably feel the Force, but the sensations are vague and blurred and incomprehensible. As time passes, and as he/she keeps on diving recklessly into the Force, the more focused the sensations get ... just like an infant's vision gets better as the days go by.

    It is stupid to try to stop the infant from seeing because you are afraid he/she is going to be relying on her eyes too much! What I don't understand is why it is any different with the Force.

    Everybody keeps talking about the endless knowledge that is lying hidden in the Force that one can't possibly learn in one lifetime or even hundred lifetimes. Luke has just barely tickled his feet in the waters. To choke he needs to go deep, to be able to go deep.

    Right now, while he's still learning, let him be completely taken over the Force. The more he uses the Force, the more he'll learn. Once he actually knows enough about it to actually *see* the subtleties, then come and preach him on how he is overusing the Force.

    . . . .

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  23. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Welcome back, Tiershon_Fett . :)

    I probably won't be on Internet the rest of today. So if you don't see me posting, that's why. ;)

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  24. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Ah Aunecah we dance some more :p

    Luke is category #1, I think. The Jedi of the Old Jedi Order are in the category #2. As of then [VotF], Luke has had the equivilant of a 13-15 year-old in the OJO. Would you expect Obi to know much about the Force when he was 15? I doubt it.

    Its kinda tough to comepare a 15 year old with a 30 something year old. When you are 10 can you learn the more advanced things in life? Would you be able to understand how the human body works or perhaps the complexities of chemistry? Ok now lets put forth a 20 year old who also has never experienced how the human body works, which one would learn quicker? 13-15 years of Luke learning about the force really can not be considered the same as the first 13-15 years that Obi Wan spent learning the force. Its tough to compare the any jedi from before Empire to any jedi after the Empire. Luke by the time this whole speech takes place has experienced a lot more than a 15 year old Obi Wan and life experience does help color the learning process and does help define how we do things. Oh and also I think Luke is both categories. Being familiar does not mean you wont miss things, sometimes it means you miss more becuase you take things for granted. I am not saying Mara was exactly correct in her statements, but I do think some of what she said has merrit.

    It is stupid to try to stop the infant from seeing because you are afraid he/she is going to be relying on her eyes too much! What I don't understand is why it is any different with the Force.

    Ah but a child who is stimulated with sight, touch, sound, smell, and taste develops more completely than one who only uses one sense(human growth and development class joy :p) So to better develope would you want someone who only relies on one thing or relies on everything?

    Everybody keeps talking about the endless knowledge that is lying hidden in the Force that one can't possibly learn in one lifetime or even hundred lifetimes. Luke has just barely tickled his feet in the waters. To choke he needs to go deep, to be able to go deep.

    Even a full grown person can drown in the shallowest pool with the right circumstances. You wade in quickly moving towards the deep end and miss a tiny little bump, tripping and falling. You are knocked out and thus gone.

    I dont disagree about the endless knowledge, but even the shallowest area will have a wealth of things to explore and perhaps if you miss out on one of those you may not be able to swim out deeper to enjoy that which is out there.

    Well Aunecah your turn to spin me now. Maybe catch ya this evening.

    OWLC
  25. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Woo-hoo, go Aunecah!

    Nicely worded rebuttals. :)

    Tiershon, welcome back!!!!!!!

    Missed you again! :_|
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