Mara Jade Hater Club

You knew I would reply, OWLC . And I'm not going to disappoint you. I love debating, and I love an intellectual argument.

. . . .

When you are 10 can you learn the more advanced things in life? Would you be able to understand how the human body works or perhaps the complexities of chemistry? Ok now lets put forth a 20 year old who also has never experienced how the human body works, which one would learn quicker?

Ah, but who can learn quicker? A ten year old or a thirty year old? And there is a reason why one can't learn the advanced things at age 10. Because they're still learning the basics. There is a reason why a thirty year old can learn the advanced stuff. They've already learned the basics. To have a strong building, you need a strong foundation. Without a strong foundation, the building you build is not going to last as long. Luke lacks at least some of that strong foundation, doesn't he? Obi has that strong foundation. While Obi might be younger, he still has the same #of years of training as Luke, and he has a strong foundation in the basics of the Force. And, Obi has the same #of years of experience in dealing with the horrors of the galaxy as Luke (though Luke's might have been a little more intense). So, yes, we can compare Luke when he's 30 and Obi when he's 15.

Being familiar does not mean you wont miss things, sometimes it means you miss more becuase you take things for granted.

Isn't that what I said? That you're so familiar with things that you miss the subtle things? And that that might be the reason why the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order missed the construction of the Clone Army and the Return of the Sith Lords?

Ah but a child who is stimulated with sight, touch, sound, smell, and taste develops more completely than one who only uses one sense(human growth and development class joy ) So to better develope would you want someone who only relies on one thing or relies on everything?

Hmm ... who is saying that just because Luke is developing his ability in the Force he is hindering his development in sight, touch, hear, smell, and taste? Just because he's using the Force doesn't mean he's stopping to see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. Besides, he has already developed all his five senses. He has been introduced a new sense when he's old and hence he's still in the process of developing his sixth sense.

even the shallowest area will have a wealth of things to explore and perhaps if you miss out on one of those you may not be able to swim out deeper to enjoy that which is out there.

I don't disagree. But to be able to at all explore even the shallowest area, you need to be able to swim. And, if you spend too much time exploring the shallowest area of the ocean, you will never have time to learn to swim in the deep oceans and go explore the deep, and there might yet come a time when you need to be able to at least swim in the ocean.

. . . .

Well, here you go, OWLC . I've posted. And I might be able to get on Internet later at night to reply.

Thanks, Jedi_Suzuran . I try my best to voice my opinions, and I give facts to support my opinions.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

One of the worst things that happened was that they made Tang a Jedi Master, much less a Knight.

We don't really know what the Trials consist of, although killing a Sith and refusing the dark side definetely counts.

Mara herself says, I quote:

"Besides, I keep remembering stories about how the last step to becoming a Jedi is usually making some supreme and rather ugly personal sacrifice. I'm not crazy about that one either."

Vision of the Future, Pg. 304.

Mara let her ship crash into a fortress. Gee, that was a "supreme and rather ugly personal sacrifice." So she lost a symbol of her independence.

Well, guess what, if the definition of becoming a Jedi rests on this criteria, then Anakin Skywalker should have been a damn Jedi Master when Qui Gon Jinn found him on Tatooine. Why? He was denied independence for the first 9 years of his life, as was his mother.

And letting a ship crash is NOT a supreme sacrifice, any way you look at it.

Anakin Skywalker sacrificed his life for his son, thereby becoming a Jedi once again. Padme gave up her son for the greater good of the galaxy. And Luke was willing to lay down his life, selflessly and out of love, for the father he believed in.

These are worthy and supreme sacrifices. Tang crashing her ship next to these is laughable.

 

The biggest mistake I think Luke makes is trying to put himself in the shoes of Yoda (well if he wore shoes) and Obi-wan, and he didn't know them at all, and looked up to them with almost too much reverence. It is wonderful that he respected them. They earned respect, but when you revere someone, you can't see them for how they really are as a person. Luke still clings to what little he heard, and learned, and tries to raise up a bunch of Jedi with that limited knowledge. Well, that's what's frustrating a lot of Jedi.

One reason I don't like Mara, is that she has taken away Luke's faith in himself. All those quotes aren't her helping, they are her kicking him when he is already down. Luke needs to go qwithin, to find his own path in the force. with the doubt Mara instilled in him, he can't grow in the force and in the NJO, he really hasn't. He needs to move past his past and say, 'let's all learn together'. I look at her as a stumbling block. She relies on him, but then makes him feel unsure. I see him as always tip-toeing around her, lest she get all upset. well, who cares? Let her. She'll get over it.
Luke seems somewhat afraid of emotions (IMO, like in Rebel Dream, he got all scared about Ben and then searched the force like crazy, instead of recognizing fatherly concern. Too cautious.). The old Jedi dealt with theirs and let them go, they didn't fear feelings. All the NJO seem repressed (even Jaina, who acts angry, rather than hurt and grieving), and Luke is at the forefront.
Does it really help? Seeing how most of the Jedi under Luke have fallen to the darkside, I'd say no.
Mara is not in charge and should not question some things Luke does, most ESP in VotF, because she does not understand them.

 

Mara is not in charge and should not question some things Luke does, most ESP in VotF, because she does not understand them.

Damn straight.
Mara doesn't know all that much about the Force, and what she does know comes from Luke, unless you count the "bits" of training from Palpy.

She doesn't have the credentials to tell Luke off, no matter what.

 

I totally agree, Tiershon_Fett . To be able to lecture someone on something, you need to actually be better than that person in that area. Like I mentioned somewhere else, a thief can't lecture another to not steal candy, even if what the other is doing is wrong.

And it is so sad that Luke loses his self-confidence because of Mara. And instead of slapping her a couple of times and waving her a good-bye, he marries her.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

Keep your friends close...

 

...and your enemies closer, yeah, but I don't think marrying them is the way to go about it.

 

Yub! Yub! Master Suzuran.

 

and your enemies closer, yeah, but I don't think marrying them is the way to go about it.

It's a fringe benefit.

Luke: Haha! I can watch you like a hawk now!
Mara: Haha! I can watch you like a hawk now!

Both: Did I think that? *eyes narrow*

(after all they're "one person")

Everyone else: eyerolls

 

LOL!
That force bond stuff and them being one person reminds me of ameobas.

LEUke and Tang are amoebas!!!!!!!!

That's an image to live by.

 

Jedi_Suzuran : HEE! HEE! Very funny. First of all, I just don't get that Force-bond stuff between Luke and Mara. I think that the Force bond shouldn't exist. But that's just because I don't like Mara.

Let me tell you about this fictional character that I created. She's called Kalinda Kenobi - yes, she's the Obi's daughter - and she is destined to become Luke's wife.

I'll tell you sometime later, because I have to run.

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

Yeah, the Force bond stuff is silly.

Someone pointed out that every couple, by definition, is Force bonded.

After all, the Force is an energy field, it sorrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

The force is in everyone, as evidenced by midichlorians. So, every couple should be force bonded. There's nothing special about LEUke and Tang.

It was just tacked on to put some sort of stability or closeness to a very shaky relationship.

 

Jedi_Suzuran : HEE! HEE! Very funny. First of all, I just don't get that Force-bond stuff between Luke and Mara. I think that the Force bond shouldn't exist. But that's just because I don't like Mara.



I can accept that there is a force bond. But why only between them? What about Kam and Tionne? What about Corran and Mirax? Anyone with the force can read their partner like a book. Like Leia can read Han, and he is perceptive enough to know her. Why weren't Anakin and Tahiri one person? They were very close, in love, grew up together, etc. How about Jacen and Tenel Ka? Aren't they force bonded?
Why is it that only Luke and Mara are bonded in the force? It's all or nothing at all. The only difference is Timothy Zahn wants us all to believe that his Mara Sue is better than anyone else in the GFFA, so only she is capable of being that in love with Luke, and he with her. I don't buy it at all.

 

I agree with that, Tiershon.

 

Glad to see the hatred of La Matress still continuing in this late hour.

It was said best elsewhere. The "Force bond" shared by Luke and Mara is just a way for the writers to cover up the fact that they don't really have a real complex and deep love. To me, from reading those passages it seems more of a physical thing. They don't love each other they just love having sex with each other. Even at the expense of Luke's family and the rest of the galaxy.

Mara losing her ship is not a sacrifice. Ships can easily be replaced. People and planets can't. Just ask Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, Luke, Leia, the droids, etc. They all know what sacrifice is.

 

So I am curious which one of us leads?

Ah, but who can learn quicker? A ten year old or a thirty year old? And there is a reason why one can't learn the advanced things at age 10. Because they're still learning the basics. There is a reason why a thirty year old can learn the advanced stuff. They've already learned the basics. To have a strong building, you need a strong foundation. Without a strong foundation, the building you build is not going to last as long. Luke lacks at least some of that strong foundation, doesn't he? Obi has that strong foundation. While Obi might be younger, he still has the same #of years of training as Luke, and he has a strong foundation in the basics of the Force. And, Obi has the same #of years of experience in dealing with the horrors of the galaxy as Luke (though Luke's might have been a little more intense). So, yes, we can compare Luke when he's 30 and Obi when he's 15.{/i]

I agree fully with you, but one must also remember just because Luke had not had any jedi training he had been alive for 18 years (or so depending on this funky timeline thing) and so he had a base. It may not have been the same kind of base as others, but he had lived life and learned from it. The brain is different fundamentally at say 1 and 15 or 15 and 30. Differences in hormone levels, synaptic connections, activity levels, and other little joys (ah the joys of neurophysiology, ya think they would stop giving us classes in it after 2 semesters of it) so I can see where you come from, but I think its impossible to judge one person who learned at one age compared to another who learned as a much older age. The body reacts different at different ages. The brain addapts differently. Its funky like that. Once you build a specific base, sometimes it interferes with learning. Like with language and such. But I do understand your logic and to some degree I agree with it, but at the same time I think there is a lot more to it.

Isn't that what I said? That you're so familiar with things that you miss the subtle things? And that that might be the reason why the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order missed the construction of the Clone Army and the Return of the Sith Lords?

Oh I know its what you said, but I think its a path Luke was also on. He was a mix of the two pathes you described. I think we both just got mixed up in communicating things.

Hmm ... who is saying that just because Luke is developing his ability in the Force he is hindering his development in sight, touch, hear, smell, and taste? Just because he's using the Force doesn't mean he's stopping to see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. Besides, he has already developed all his five senses. He has been introduced a new sense when he's old and hence he's still in the process of developing his sixth sense.

Hey the sixth sense. I see dead people. Just because you develop your other senses before introduced to a new sense does not mean regression can not occur. But actually the point I was trying to make was more about an overall development which is always ever changing in a person. No matter what new things are learned, lost, relearned, etc. New motor pathways, new complicated motor patterns, new learned reflexes, new thoughts, new memories, understandings, etc. If you focus in on one area too much you end up missing out. Here is something worth considering. Lets look at Yoda who spent a couple of decades on Dagobah(well so we think at this time). He was easily one of the most powerful jedi of his time and perhaps in history. Why wasn't Luke training with him the whole time, learning the force and how to swim deep into it the whole time? Why wasn't Yoda out letting loose with this super flip green terror attacks like we saw in ATOC or working with the rebellion once it was established? Perhaps he spent the time on Dagobah looking for the subtle things he and so many other jedi missed which allowed the Sith back. We were only slowly introduced into how Luke was trained by Yoda and I have always wondered if Yoda did not teach him new th

 

Sure, OWLC, a short spin around the thread.

...but at the same time remember what the flanneled God put forth a long time ago. He let us know that this universe of his is very much built on points of view. To Mara sacrificing her freedom and independence is very much a huge sacrifice.

True, SW is made up of points of view. Still, I believe that giving up a measure of freedom is not a sacrifice. We don't live in a totally free society, and therefore can't be completely autonomous. I can't just wake up tomorrow and say to all the people in my neighborhood, "Hey, these next six blocks are now Suzuran land now, I'm the new supreme ruler, bow before my greatness!!!!!!" (kinda think of it, that'd be kinda cool. )

It stands to reason, that though we're in the GFFA, rules apply. Look at the Senate, and how the creation of an army for the Republic is such a heated issue. What I'm getting at here, is that personal freedom is relative, and is also restricted by outside influences. Mara, by making the loss of a little personal freedom (the right to gallavant around the galaxy when the mood suits) isn't making a sacrifice. It's like crashing your car or something. Now, if that car was vital for you to live (ie, it provided you with air to breathe), then it would mean something. She and Luke didn't need the ship. There was one on orbit around the planet, if I recall correctly. Yes, she did a preemptive strike. That's good. But it's still not a sacrifice to me.

Did that make any sense?

Plus not everyone can make this ultimate sacrifice. There are only so many fathers who need redemption and Emperors to throw into power cores.

LOL. I agree with that.They don't exactly grow on trees. Still, Mara's sacrifice has to have some depth. THIS is what I hate about the whole thing. If she truly wanted to be a Jedi, she would have willingly sacrificed her life when they were battling the droids in that room in the end of the book. Her thoughts during that scene are defeatist. By this time, she has already been "redeemed". If she's truly a Jedi, she would have trusted in the Force and given up her life. Not gladly, of course, but with a sense of calm purpose.

As Luke did in ROTJ, when he told Palpy he would never turn. "You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Or Ben, in ANH, when he looked to Luke then to Vader and smiled. As Jedi, they believed in the Force, as Mara should have. There is no death, there is only the Force. Had she truly been a Jedi, she would have remembered this, and not been convinced that it was all or nothing.

Jedi don't throw their lives away for a reason. They give them for a reason. We've seen this many times in the movies. By agreeing to commit to being a Jedi, Mara should have exercised that tenet. She didn't.

Therefore, she isn't really a Jedi to me, let alone a Jedi Master.

 

Ahhh, nice, friendly arguing. I love it guys! It's so interesting too!

 

Groove with me J_S

True, SW is made up of points of view. Still, I believe that giving up a measure of freedom is not a sacrifice. We don't live in a totally free society, and therefore can't be completely autonomous. I can't just wake up tomorrow and say to all the people in my neighborhood, "Hey, these next six blocks are now Suzuran land now, I'm the new supreme ruler, bow before my greatness!!!!!!" (kinda think of it, that'd be kinda cool. )

Alas we also can't move things with our minds. Make weapons which shoot a meter of light out which can cut almost anything. I agree no one is ever truly free, but independence and true freedom are different. Sometimes freedom to some is not having to worry about anyone but themselves(kinda like Mara) where to others freedom is having the choice to give all for one cause no matter what. It differs for us all and so we can not define freedom for others only for ourselves.

Mara, by making the loss of a little personal freedom (the right to gallavant around the galaxy when the mood suits) isn't making a sacrifice.

It made perfect sense. But the ship was not just to gallavant around the galaxy. The ship was so that she could stay away from others. Be away from others. Live life where she did not need to have others dictate things to her. It has many meanings which can be looked upon many ways.

LOL. I agree with that.They don't exactly grow on trees. Still, Mara's sacrifice has to have some depth. THIS is what I hate about the whole thing. If she truly wanted to be a Jedi, she would have willingly sacrificed her life when they were battling the droids in that room in the end of the book. Her thoughts during that scene are defeatist. By this time, she has already been "redeemed". If she's truly a Jedi, she would have trusted in the Force and given up her life. Not gladly, of course, but with a sense of calm purpose.

But she was about to give up her life for Luke. Luke was the one who stopped her. Luke was the one who showed her it was not needed. Mara was ready to give up her life to give Luke his. Why is it you think Mara was willing to throw her life away compared to sacrificing her life for Luke during that battle?

OWLC


Edit: Oh and I am ready to boogy when you are.

 

EDIT: Um let's make that more readable.

A sacrifice to me, is an opportunity for the person making the sacrifice that will never come again. It's like quitting smoking. It's a sacrifice of impermanence. You can start smoking again tomorrow. No one will flinch.
Mara could up and leave at any time. Not that much time has passed, either. She was sick for two years out of seven.

Let's look at other people:

Anakin Skywalker stopped living. He would not see another day. He made a choice. He couldn't stand living that other day with his child dead. So he gave his life. It was a sacrifice.

Leia sacrificed having a peaceful happy home to do a job that aged her, and which she inherited more or less. She didn't want the job. She still did largely because she was the only one who could.

Han has stuck around for years because he loves Leia, or he'd be gone.
Wedge never stops fighting.

These are people that have given something profound, or literally decades of their lives. Decades. Nonstop fighting war and stress, and Mara knew them for almost as long, but preferred to traipse around the galaxy, having fun, whatever she did. Nothing wrong with that, but don't lecture the Master when you do that.
She hasn't earned equal priveledge regardless of who she is married to. You can marry someone with status, but that doesn't mean you have it. (Example: It's like being married to someone who gets an Oscar Award. You don't have one too, because you're married to the winner. Mara strikes me thinking she has on "Oscar" too, because Luke does.)

Luke? Has he done anything selfish in his life? The only reason I don't don't dislike him right now (despite being a shell of the person he was before the NJO) is because he never took any pleasures for himself. I think he deserves better than Mara, tho. That is MHO.

Mara has a lot of work to do before she should consider herself an equal. Oh, that's right, she already does.
Okay, before I do.

Well, I'm calling it a night. Thanks for all the warm welcomes back, you guys. JS and JA and Sreya.

Good night.

 

So seven years is not a lot of time? And she did get sick escorting someone to a conference. Now I do not consider Mara as someone who has sacrificed as much as Han, Leia, Luke, or many others in the EU, but like you said she has only had 7 years. And during those 2 years she still did things. Mentored Jaina. Fought the good fight. She has given herself, even if its not the same as others. Sacrifice comes in many forms my friend. Most likely Mara has a lot of life yet to live so who knows what may happen in the long run.

OWLC

 

And the boogy goes on.

Alas we also can't move things with our minds. Make weapons which shoot a meter of light out which can cut almost anything.

Not gonna argue with that, although that illusionist who bends spoons (Yuri Geller, I think), would disagree with you.

Sometimes freedom to some is not having to worry about anyone but themselves(kinda like Mara) where to others freedom is having the choice to give all for one cause no matter what. It differs for us all and so we can not define freedom for others only for ourselves.

It's true, we can't define those qualities for everyone. Still, Mara's choice of freedom is... well, selfish. One definition of being indepent, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is Free from the influence, guidance, or control of others

Why bring that up now? Mara knows of the Force and the Jedi. Giving is one of the silent pillars in the Jedi creed; giving to others, whether it's knowledge, guidance of the Force, or help (physical or spiritual). By cutting herself off from others, Mara turned her back on those things. She wanted no responsibility for that, for other beings. All of a sudden, when she crashes her ship, she regains that ability, to care for others?

I shake my head at this, because I don't believe it for one minute. You can argue that because she had Palpy as a mentor that giving wasn't in her nature. I don't buy that. Even the most terrible of despots know how to give. To bring a real life parallel, Hitler was evil, but he loved dogs, and he pleased and loved a mistress, whom he later married. Those he cared for he gave better positions, such as one woman, the wife of one of his Commanders. I can't recall her name, but he admired her and gave her much time and brownie points.

Palpy wasn't born evil. He didn't take his first breath after he was born and look at the nurse and say "Okay, I'm gonna kill you in a few years cause I'm gonna be Supreme Chancellor." He gave, in his life. We don't really see this in the movies, but human nature is human nature.

The ship was so that she could stay away from others. Be away from others.

Which proves my point. An essential fact of being a Jedi is to be at one with the Force. How can you learn how to do that if you're running away from that which is essential? By her fleeing human contact, she was denying the Force itself. Midichlorians live in everyone in the GFFA, and by avoiding others, she isolated herself from the beauty of the Force, and the essence of being a Jedi.

Live life where she did not to have others dictate things to her.

Whom, may I ask, would do that? No one was bossing her around. Luke wasn't ordering her to stay at Yavin. Karrde never chained her to his organization. She ran away because she wanted to, because she didn't want to deal with anyone challenging her in anything. Yeah, you can say that Palpy left her with a deep seated fear of authority (she even says so, or someone does, I forget), but still, if she was so paranoid about being bossed around, she would have left Karrde, gone to some dinky planet and become a hermit. Ben pulled through okay, and look what he accomplished. Her refusal to connect with anyone was pure selfishness.

Not a trait worthy of anyone claiming to be a Jedi.

 

Edit!!!
I've been trying to edit!!!!
Edit!!!!!

 

True, OWLC.

I think in VotF, instead of making Mara look compatable with Luke, she started off on the wrong foot by looking arrogant.

She does have to do more in my eyes before she cops that attitude. It's funny on someone who's really good. It's not amusing on someone who has a long way to go.
If Leia had told Luke all that stuff, I would be GO Leia! Tell it! Because she has so much good experience and had proven herself so many times by then.
Mara comes out of nowhere saying this stuf. Her and Luke were vitually strangers before that. Acquaintences. Circled around each other, yeah but, she didn't know him well enough. And had no right to throw failed relationships in his face, and soon as Luke mentions HER relationships, then subject closed, wall back up. That's not exactly open and fair. Is it?

Timothy Zahn should written that whole scene better. He did a bad job and it set-up most of the angst that caused this thread to spring up.

Mara was not committed to the Jedi way at all. Then in five minutes she says stuff like 'I'm a Jedi now." Or, "We're Jedi, that isn't our function.." To LUKE. Well, thank you! Had no idea!
All I can say is: I wish I could do that. I'd tell my boss, "I'm an executive now, so let's clean this place up a bit shall we?" Guess what would happen to me?



Well, seven years isn't a lot when you're old. It goes by like nothing. Rather irritating really.......Seems like '95 was just yesterday.

Um, JS, you double posted, sugar.

 

I know, Tiershon, I've been trying to fix it for the last 10 minutes but the stupid boards won't let me edit.