Mara Jade Hater Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by rngenzi, Apr 14, 2001.

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  1. Nephrite Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 1
    If Mara would enter the dark temple she would see an ugly version of herself, the version that didn't have the benefits of all sorts of cosmetic products Jaded One had. It would probaly kill her.

    Good.
  2. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    She'd see a world where everyone hated her and would learn just how much of an evil, murdering ***** she really was.
  3. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Nearly 2500 posts of hatred for La Matress. Before those people shut it down, let's drive this up some more!
  4. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    I return :p

    I am pretty sure I read somewhere (though I can't figure out where I read it) that the reason Luke was fixed with Mara because everyone (as in the *authors*) felt bad for all the torment they put him through and decided that he finally needs to have a life.

    Actually there have been a few answers to this one. The one I have read the most comes from Tim Zahn. Zahn states when he was asked to kinda wrap up the Bantam series, he asked to do two things. One of them was get Luke and Mara together. He never went into great detail if he felt sorry for Luke or just wished to give Luke the beginning of his own family.

    I will agree with ya Aunecah, Zahn has never been that good with intense emotions or feelings. Its just not one of his strong points. I have always wished if Zahn had some how gotten more in depth with the feelings that had been shown and introspection with Luke and Mara the book would have been better overall. We get a glimpse here and there, but only a glimpse. Such as when Luke watches Mara in her healing trance or vice versa. It was an opening, but it was never followed.

    I was very unsatisfied with the ending, also. The reason for which Luke asked Mara to marry him seemed unnatural. Also, the fact that they never really explored Luke's and Mara's married lives (aft. the book) and suddenly here we are in the NJO, in which Luke is willing to die for Mara and (esp.!)vice versa.

    The ending felt like it was supposed to end the Bantam series and yet provide this broad opening for when Del Rey took over. I would have loved to hear about the marriage or honeymoon or first few years of their lives together. We may get this thanks to the second Zahn book in a few years, but alas its a few years away. If Zahn puts out a strong book explaining things out somewhat and provides more understanding into Mara's past might this change the mind of some of you who dislike her?

    Groove with me Aunecah

    The whole marraige was done badly... because they shouldn't have married in the first place. Talk about a dysfunctional relationship! She wanted, and tried, to kill him, he's trying to train her, she blames him for all that's wrong in the universe, he tries to excuse everything wrong she's ever done...

    Sreya It is science fiction. But remember they had no relationship while she was trying to kill him so there is no dysfunction. As for blaming him for all that is wrong inthe universe, that seems a bit far-fetched to me. She does go off on a tangent about the things he did wrong, but by no means does she blame him for things like Caamas, or the Empire still being around. She blames Luke for being on the wrong path for himself, not other things. Also he does not try to excuse anything she has ever done. He does try and come up with an explanation which says she never truly went over to the darkside, but she herself shoots that down and thus admits to doing things which were evil. The whole spouse abuse thing is just weak also, becareful Sreya.

    Alright J_S lets dance :)
    Also, Aunecah brings up a great point. Mara has no right whatsoever to lecture Luke on being a Jedi Master after 10 years. So what? He knew of the Force way longer than Tang did.

    And she became a Knight, let alone a Master, in less than 10?
    Uh-huh, sure, you have a right to lecture, Mara.


    I will never say Mara had the right to lecture Luke, but sometimes its not about having the right. Sometimes one just needs another point of view. Take Jacen and Vergere. Vergere may not be right with her ideas about the force, but they helped Jacen see things differently and from that Jacen understood more. As for becoming a knight and then a master. Mara essentially became a knight at the end of VoTF. She is a Master as early on as VP which is 6 years later. Luke became a knight at the end of RoTJ and became a master at around 6 years afterwards. If Luke shares everything with his wife one could conclude she could progress in her mastery of the force at about the same speed.

    Man I go away for some of the day
  5. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    A short go around. :)

    She treats everyone with contempt?

    For the most part, I believe so, yes. If you talk badly about your sister-in-law's mothering while being civil to her face, then that is holding contempt for a person, or worse yet, being two-faced.

    So according to you and DV she never sacrifices anything for anyone? She never gives of herself to others and only thinks of one person, Mara?

    Yup. ;)
    Seriously, as I posted on page 96 last night, she is selfish. Running away from the Force was selfish on her part. She had the gift of the Force. Instead of choosing the path of Jedi service (knowing that the New Republic needed Jedi Knights, and since she was now with them "unofficially) she kept on her smuggling job. Selfish, I say.

    That's all I can say for now.
    Perhaps more later.

  6. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Seriously, as I posted on page 96 last night, she is selfish. Running away from the Force was selfish on her part. She had the gift of the Force. Instead of choosing the path of Jedi service (knowing that the New Republic needed Jedi Knights, and since she was now with them "unofficially) she kept on her smuggling job. Selfish, I say.

    Perhaps the path of the jedi was not right for her at that time. She at that time may not have chosen to be a jedi, but in the end she did choose the path of the jedi. She did have her selfish moments i will never deny this, but she did choose the jedi path and now is sticking with it. As for her totally being selfish, she has shown her moments of utter concern. She almost died protecting her unborn child instead of doing anything else to risk Ben. She was willing to sacrifice herself for Luke in VoTF. She is not just doing anything she pleases in the NJO, but fighting with everyone. Risking her life by going to Coruscant or staying with Luke as he watches the Lusankya crash into the world ship. She shows a fierce loyalty to others and I wonder how one can show a fierce loyalty and yet be selfish.

    OWLC
  7. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I don't know, OWLC, I wrote a long post where I thought I could post it, but still was banned. i tried to cut and paste it to mail, but it's stupid MSN, so I couldn't.

    Essentially, I will never like Mara. I can't forgive her, and she can't be 'redeemed.'

    My mom's family lived in Romania (that's what it's called now) They lived on that land so long ago, the Roman Empire sent Sentinels to survey the mountains there, and my family allowed them to do so, and in exchange the RE built a big house in the forest for the soldiers. My mom grew up in that house. This was nearly 2000 years ago.

    Well, then WWII happens,and it changes the fortunes and destinies of billions of people. My family no exception. My grandmother manged to keep her family together. It wasn't easy. The Communists came and took over in 1951. Since my grandfather lived in Austria, because he was not allowed to go home, He worked 12 hours a day, for 10 years to "pay" to get his family out. My mom grew up the first ten years without him. They starved. My mom was ten and looked five. No teeth, they all fell out.

    Then they got out. But only them, and at the business end of a machine gun. They rest of my entire family was stuck there under a madman named Coucescou (sp?).

    In 1989, most of my family were killed in the revolution. Or they are scattered. Never have heard from any of them again. One whole side. About 150+ family members. We can only assume they are dead. That's why there's so many little orphans there. Parents killed.

    When all the years this was happening the government would do "sweeps" where they would go from house to house and strip the people of every stitch of usable goods. That is the reality of "sanctions". The bullies in charge never starve, just the slave population they oppress. A sweep consists of taking toilet paper, lightbulbs, firewood and food. In a place where the winters are frigid and it snows nonstop. It is absolute cruelty.

    So what does this have to with Mara? Everything. She is exactly the person who evilly killed and tormented people who were powerless, and gloated over the fact. Whenever I read about her gloating about her lofty great priveledged position, I see my beaten and tormented family. I see her standing over them with machine guns and taking all they have. And laughing at them mockingly because she could. Because she wanted to. Doctrine allows perversions, but that doesn't make the perversions right. So following orders doesn't fly in my book.

    Mara was "following orders". And she so "Loyal" (Luke, how dare you?).
    Given the cruel and totalitarian ways of the Empire, these are the cowardly acts she commited. If she was truly remorseful, she would have walked away, unsupervised. Not when it didn't matter anymore. After it was all over.
    She didn't show an ounce of courage. She didn't stand up to evil. She knew it was wrong. we are all born with a sense of right and wrong. We learn all of our morals and values at three. She was still with her family then, so don't give that bull that she didn't know any better. But she had it good, and would never have left if Palpatine hadn't died. She would have stayed there until she died.

    Men (and women) that commit atrocities and then say they were following orders are nothing but liars, cowards, and murderers, that hide behind a flag or a badge to do unspeakable things. Then when it's all over they want to be treated as if it never happened, and all is inconsequential.

    Well, it's not inconsequential to me. If she can make all the people that she killed, and that her peers killed, in cold blood, alive again. And she could undo the parties she went to to celebrate the destruction of Alderaan (which Palps is perverted enogh to do0, and all the family members of the people she hurt forgive her, then she will be totally redeemed. That can't happen, can it?

    To me, if you have done such wrong, and want to be forgiven, then you look the person/s you hurt in the EYE, and you tell them how sorry you are, you tell them you are wrong, was wrong, a
  8. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Today is not my day. First I was having problems with remembering my username on a different site that I rarely used. And then I have trouble remembering my password. Even my hint doesn't seem to work! :mad: :mad:.

    Anyway, OWLC , you've finally answered, and I'm going to kick the ball right back into your court. :) Here you go:

    . . . .

    To your first post :

    The brain is different fundamentally at say 1 and 15 or 15 and 30. Differences in hormone levels, synaptic connections, activity levels, and other little joys


    I agree. The brain is different. But if you ever looked at the learning curve, you will realize that we learn the most in the first ten or so years of our life. Then it will take a sharp decline in our ability to learn and then rise a miniscule level in our late teen years, and then drop a little, and basically stay that way. Luke has no idea about what the Force is when he first met Ben. Same with Obi-Wan, when he is an year-old. If you teach them both about the Force from the fundamentals, who's going to learn quicker?

    One thing that stops adults from learning too much is that they already know a lot about the world and have already come up with a value/knowledge system of their own. Sometimes, this is a hindrance because you close up your brain and not allow any new information, opposing view to get in. Because everyone wants themselves to be right! (I'm not saying Luke is completely like this, but he is more like this than Obi-Wan. ;))

    So, yes, you can compare Obi when he's fifteen and Luke when he's thirty. ;)

    He [Luke] was a mix of the two pathes you described.


    So are the Jedi of the OJO. What I'm saying is that Luke shows predominantly the characteristics of being in #1, while the Jedi of the OJO, in #2.

    I think we both just got mixed up in communicating things.


    That sometimes is a problem. 8-}

    Why wasn't Yoda out letting loose with this super flip green terror attacks like we saw in ATOC or working with the rebellion once it was established?


    I was rather under the opinion that Yoda was following the will of the Force. Because if he wanted to defeat the Emperor and save the Jedi, he could just have done that even before Anakin and Palpy killed everyone. Yoda is wise in that he follows the will of the Force and realizes that sometimes people have to die for the "better" of the galaxy - that if you have too much good, it's ultimately going to lead to evil.
    But that's just me.

    But speaking of developing too much in only one area.... Imagine this: If you have a good deal of knowledge in how to write, how to read, and how to speak, but you don't know how to type. And suppose that the entire galaxy is going to die if you can't type. If you spend ten hours a day learning to type, is that overdeveloping? Say, you're a master now, can type ten thousand words per minute. If you spend ten hours a day typing ... then that's addiction. Luke is still learning, so it is only natural that he spends much time dwelling into the Force. If when twenty or thirty years later he still spends that much time and effort diving into the depths of the mystical energy, then yes, he maybe addicted. But usually, one stops when s/he becomes a professional in something. After spending say an year on learning to type, would you want to spend more time typing than that is required of you?

    Sooner or later one can not live in the deep of the ocean.


    I understand. But what I'm saying is Luke is still trying to get into the deep of the ocean. And yes, you can't just forever keep going in and in and in to the ocean. But the point is Luke doesn't always use the Force. Like in his sleep. Like when he goes to Myrkr. Like when he sees a girl and falls in love and she dumps him. Like when he is eating with his eyes, seeing with his ears, thinking with his mouth, and hearing with his stomach.
  9. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    I believe you and I dont think I can ever understand where you are coming from, but I see what you are saying. I am curious, what do you think of Tycho? I know that no argument can be made, but I am curious what you think of those people who were formerly imperials and then became rebels or part of the republic? Some of these people did some nasty things. If you dont wish to answer I understand.

    OWLC
  10. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    *applauds Tiershon's post*

    Thus we come to one of the fundamental reasons why we hate her. SHE HAS NO MORALS. She stayed with Palpy. She was proud of what she did, she b*****d to Luke about loosing her position when Palpy died. NO FREAKIN' REMORSE.

    Aside from Tiershon's very a propos real-life example, I would cite my own, but won't. I'll stick with the SW galaxy for now.

    Take Biggs. He joined the Imperial Academy, to train as a pilot. Even though he was low on the totem pole, he saw the evil of the Empire. He jumped ship and joined the Rebellion. He did what his heart told him was right.

    Or better yet, take Han. He was also in the Imperial Academy, and he walked away from a promising future with them to free a slave.Chewie. Because he didn't like the injustice.

    Mara never did those things. It doesn't matter if she's turned goody-goody now. THE PAST MATTERS. We are defined by our past and our memories, our deeds. Being an assassin is her past, and it's an utterly despicable past. She will ALWAYS be this way, I don't care if she wins Galactic Mother and Wife of the Year until she's 99 years old. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE A MURDERER.

    Why do you think that people in the galaxy found it so hard to forgive Darth Vader? He was a murderer also. He redeemed himself, in some people's eyes, but in many, many others, he would always be a murderer. ALWAYS.

    Tang should not be lauded for her present. She should be condemned for her past, which the SW protagonists have never done. Shame on them, and on all the other authors who never did so either.

    And before anyone jumps in and says that you can't hold it against them for their entire lives, think for a moment. If your family member was killed by an assassin, would you suddenly say it's all cool if she marries the head of a benevolent and helpful Order? Hell no! Would you forgive the murderer? F**** NO! You would always blame the person who took your loved one away from you, who denied you a few more years, days, weeks with him/her. Always you would feel a void, a sadness, bereft because you were cheated. THAT DESERVES NO FORGIVENESS.

    By extension, Mara deserves no forgiveness either. If she truly apologized or was punished (which you bet your sweet butt would have happened if Vader had lived after ROTJ) then there would be a chance of forgiveness.

    As of now, and the way things are going, ain't gonna happen. [face_plain]
  11. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I think Tycho got back what he gave a thousand times with the destruction of Alderaan. I think people don't comprehend what happened to Alderaan. What if someone blew up the Earth. I would have millions of regrets. I struggle sometimes with the depth of losses people have. I am very empathetic, to what people go through. Tycho paid dearly.

    Mara reminds me of the guys that lived high on the hog, having everything, and them when the Nuremburg trials roll around off to Brazil they went. Never paid for their wrong doing. They got a cake walk. that is Mara to me. All she ever lamented about is losing her job. "I had power and prestige, and you took it all away from me. So I should kill you for that alone!" Well CRY me a river why don't you?

    Tycho had shcok and etrayal to a degree I cannot even imagine. Here you are serving someone, and there goes your whole planet, your family, everything.

    Mara didn't lose anything dear, just her elevated position. At that time she was incapable of love. I don't think it's the same. not all soldiers are bad. I think mara was one of the bad ones. Do you think God overlooks assasins? Do you think it's not a stain on someone's soul to kill an unsuspecting person at dinner or at home. It's not in the field. Basically it hunting a person. It's not any different than all these murderers you hear about that stalk and take people to kill. It's not the same as a dogfight, or a battlefield. It's mafia type stuff. I hate the mafia. They are lowlifes.
  12. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    For 6 years according to the new essential guide for characters, Mara flitted around with Mirrax or helped jedi graduates with assignments.

    So when Mara should have FINALLY devoted herself to her Jedi training, she is, once again, "flitting" around the galaxy?

    Does this woman EVER get more than a week of consecutive training? And yet she's called a Jedi Master!!!

    sometimes its not about having the right. Sometimes one just needs another point of view.

    But it becomes absolutely worthless and hypocritical when that POV comes out of the wrong mouth.

    I'm sorry, but Mara has no clue what she's talking about half the time, and certainly she doesn't have the discipline and experience to back up her claims. She's shooting her mouth off with whatever sounds good at the time.

    If Luke had to hear this baloney (which I don't think he did, but that's another subject), it should have come from someone worth their salt, not Ms. Emperor's Hand Mara.

    Tiershon, that has got to be one of the most poignant explanations of what is wrong with Mara that I've ever seen. Thank you so much for posting it.
  13. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Nice post, Tiershon. I'll write a more constructive reply later. :)

    Aunecah_Skywalker
  14. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    You're welcome.

    I feel numb more than anything, concerning my family. It's hard to wrap your brain around. The sad thing we are hardly special. The whole entire eastern bloc had the same stuff. That's why I feel so bad for Chechnya right now. All they want is their freedom. They were never a part of Russia.

    The communists came once, and took my aunt for a year to work as a slave in a factory. She got raped countless times. Was nearly starved and frozen, with one blanket. They would have taken my grandmother too, but all the kids got their moms taken came to the house, so she had about 25 kids with no parents, so they left her alone. She took all these kids in for about a month until the other relatives came.

    This went all the wholetime until the late 80's.

    My aunt got out of Romania in the 60's, with my grandmothers help. She didn't get married until she was 45, she was so afraid of men. It's just sad.

    I'm so glad my mom got out of there. I wouldn't exsist if she didn't! :) I really feel for Croats, Bosnians, and Czechs, and all those poor people.
  15. Sreya Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2000
    star 2
    Yikes, by the time I finished that last post, several more had been added!

    Cool! :)

    I know that no argument can be made, but I am curious what you think of those people who were formerly imperials and then became rebels or part of the republic? Some of these people did some nasty things.

    They turned their backs on the Empire, and worked very hard to bring it down. They acknowledged they'd been on the wrong side, and worked very hard to make up for the past.

    There's also a little bit for the 18 year old who signs up for the military "to see the galaxy" and by the end of training, or at the time of Alderaan's destruction, realizes that he's been a bit naive, and joins the Rebel camp. There's also a difference for those who were originally part of the Republic, and were the newt in the boiling water, so to speak... it took them a while to realize what was happening. But when they did realize it, they did something about it -- they rebelled. They fought for what was right.

    But Mara worked PERSONALLY with Palpatine, saw him face to face, and carried out his bidding as a personal servant and assassin. Yet she NEVER turned her back on him, or even considered disobeying or rebelling. It took her FIVE YEARS after his DEATH to even START thinking that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't so great.

    And we STILL get baloney about her prestige and power. Ugh.
  16. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    But Mara worked PERSONALLY with Palpatine, saw him face to face, and carried out his bidding as a personal servant and assassin. Yet she NEVER turned her back on him, or even considered disobeying or rebelling. It took her FIVE YEARS after his DEATH to even START thinking that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't so great.

    And we STILL get baloney about her prestige and power. Ugh

    THANK YOU! Your whole post is bang on!
    She was on Palpy like stink on poodoo, and Tycho never even got to Coruscant. He never met Palpy.
    That's like being an ensign in the military as opposed to a cabinet member of the CIA, Who is in constant contact with the leaders? Not the same deal at all.

    Sreya, thanks for being articulate for me, when I am too excited to be. :)

  17. Jedi_Liz Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    just curious, but which book is this in?:


    And we STILL get baloney about her prestige and power.



    So, you judge others by their pasts? How about Han Solo? He was a *drug* smuggler. Yes, he went "clean" and joined the Rebellion, but he was still a smuggler. Do you judge him by his past?

    I'm just curious.

  18. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    So, you judge others by their pasts? How about Han Solo? He was a *drug* smuggler. Yes, he went "clean" and joined the Rebellion, but he was still a smuggler. Do you judge him by his past?


    He was a drug smuggler because the empire kicked him out for saving a slave from abuse (Chewbacca).
    Yes, I do judge him, but if wasn't really good at heart, he wouldn't have come back to Yavin. That decision took him about an hour, maybe two.
    He is a good man. He did what he had to to survive and the day another alternative presented itself, he gave up money and freedom, for strangers. And he did it for Chewie too. when given the opportunity, he always does right.

    I can't see Mara meeting a world of trouble in the form of an old man and a kid, and sticking around because you know it's right. Imean that is laughable. She would have turned them in in a heart beat to get the cherished pat on the head from Big Daddy.

    Oh no, she went on for years after Palpay's regime ends feeling murderous hatred for someone she didn't know, who'd never hurt her.

    She just doesn't seem to have the same generosity of spirit that Han had. Giving up his (promising) career as an Imperial. He did right to walk away from the totalitarian Empire, and he did when the empire was at their strongest, not twenty years after that fact.

    It's not too brave or committed to go from a lucrative job to another one. She didn't make the moral and virtuous decision that other conscriptees did. They left because it was wrong, not because they were routed by Isard. Mara being compared to Han is a profound insult to Han. Mara doesn't have a fraction of his character.

    And Han takes it all in with a light joke and a witty comment. Love that.
  19. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Jedi_Liz, I'm not the best person to answer this, but I'll give it a go.

    I judge people by their pasts, yes. I look at Han and see what he did. He smuggled, true. But I don't condemn him for it. Why?

    Here we come to why I'm not the best to answer your question. I'm a liberal, and I happen to think that most drugs should be legalized. It ain't the drug dealer's fault if someone OD's. They brought it on themselves, and they're free to do what they want, if they're over age.

    This is partly why I don't judge him too harshly. Drug smuggling isn't always on par with murder. If you kill someone while smuggling, then yeah, it's a different picture. Han didn't, to my knowledge. Is he an innocent angel? Nope.

    But he's not a murderer. And that's the lowest you can sink, in my book.


    Han, while he smuggled, saved an enslaved Wookie and joined a rag tag Rebellion (reluctantly, but he committed to it). His smuggling past is more than balanced with these actions, to me, anyway.

    That probably didn't make a lot of sense. :p

    Edit: On second thought, my analogy is silly, so I'm deleting it.
  20. Jedi_Liz Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    Mara *BLAMED* him, she doesn't *still* blame him. She got over that a LONG time ago.


    Child abusers? NO comment on that.....going to far with that......


    Okay, thanks for answering.


    EDIT:

    Thanks for clarifying its more about her attitude.

    To be honest, the only things I have agreed with any of you about is (a) her commitment to the Jedi (if she had been written correctly, she may have become a Jedi sooner and (b) partially about the lecture.

  21. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Well, I did quantify that by saying I wasn't the right person to answer.

    And perhaps the abuser analogy isn't the best one, but I speak of attitude, not saying that Mara is a child abuser. [face_plain]

    I would hope that wasn't misinterpreted. [face_plain]
  22. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    I agree. The brain is different. But if you ever looked at the learning curve, you will realize that we learn the most in the first ten or so years of our life. Then it will take a sharp decline in our ability to learn and then rise a miniscule level in our late teen years, and then drop a little, and basically stay that way. Luke has no idea about what the Force is when he first met Ben. Same with Obi-Wan, when he is an year-old. If you teach them both about the Force from the fundamentals, who's going to learn quicker?

    Luke will learn quicker. I know the learning curve well. What you have to realize is a lot of that learning curve is dealing with learning things such as motor control, reflex inhibition, and basic things such as speech. The learning curve slows down later on because the body does not have to learn things such as gross motor skills, basic speech, inhibition, and a bunch of other things. The force is a rather complicated thing. Can a child understand even the most simple of its complexities when compared to an 18 year old who knows a lot more about life in general?

    One thing that stops adults from learning too much is that they already know a lot about the world and have already come up with a value/knowledge system of their own. Sometimes, this is a hindrance because you close up your brain and not allow any new information, opposing view to get in. Because everyone wants themselves to be right! (I'm not saying Luke is completely like this, but he is more like this than Obi-Wan. )

    Ah but this does not mean that adults have to stop learning. Adults can continue to learn no matter what age. Plus an adult can choose to understand something and see it from many angles because of their life experiences.

    So no you can not compare Luke and Obi Wan. :p

    As for the whole swimming thing. I think Luke has explored the deep end of the ocean. He has gone swimming in the depths of the force listening to it and immersing himself in it. He was able to rebuild Vader's home. He fully admits at the power he could let loose with if he wished it. I am not saying Luke does not have more to learn, but he does not have to immerse himself in the force ultimately to learn it. There are many ways to learn things and using something less does not mean you will learn less. Someone can learn many things just thru discussion with someone else. I am thinking you and I will not agree on this. But thankyou for this Aunaceh it did make we wonder more about the force.

    So you are comparing a hobbie to freedom? Also when Mara sacrificed her freedom, it was making a commitment to becoming a jedi and living her life as one giving of herself. Is that the same as giving up writing? If you gave up writing to go live with someone and care for them, I would respect you greatly.

    Are you kidding, OWLC ? I don't have any books with me right now. But even Jaina and Jacen were eight (right?) in VotF; and at least a year or two took place after RotJ - making it a total of ten years! - it has to be at least >8.

    Jaina and Jacen were 10 in VoTF. But lets start the time line. Luke was not a knight til RoTJ. 5 years after that Jaina and Jacen were born. A year and a half after that Anakin was born and during this time Luke had become a jedi master. So this is 6.5 years. Luke only spent 4 years learning to become a jedi. Ok now we move on and 10 years down the road VoTF happens. Jaina and Jacen are 10 and Mara becomes a jedi knight. 6 years down the road VP happens and Mara is a master. The numbers add up.

    I admit that Mara doesn't blame Luke for everything that happens in the universe. What I meant was that Mara (primarily at the time of the lecture, and sometimes later) basically picked every single detail of what Luke did over the past years and attatched them to "things done wrong." (You haven't replied to that part of that post when I discussed all that. Did that get back-logged or something?)

    Yeah she did pick him apart and I dont disagree with you she was harsh. I must have missed the other par
  23. Jedi_Suzuran Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 5
    Well, I'm glad we can agree on some thing, Jedi_Liz.

    I deleted my analogy, because I realize that it's not all that fair to equate the two, even if it is based on attitude. If I offended you, or anyone because of that, I apologize. :)

    And for the record, I would still like Mara if she had been written with greater care, from Zahn until now. If she had committed to the Jedi and redeemed herself appropriately for her past deeds (here's where we part ways :p ) then I would have very little problems with her. :)
  24. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I don't child abuser is quite right. Children seemed beneath her notice until she had one. Or until she hung around Jaina, anyway.

    I think of her as being more like a terrorist, in that she was so motivated to please the leader, she didn't even let herself see her targets as people. To her, they were ten points here, 100 points there, and so on. All to get I don't know what. More things. More fancy ships and baubles. She has yet to face this. Until she does, I can't forgive her. Until she does what I said, go out and publically apologize for all she's done wrong, she will be hated by many people.

    Mara remembers all the people she killed. She has a good memory. How can Luke know all that she's done, and not care? This is not the Luke of the movies. The Luke of the movies would befriend her. Not marry her.

    I still don't get when or how Luke fell so madly, and deeply, and blindly in love with Mara. I never saw even a hint of it until the NJO. Before that it was like they just met as boyfriend/girlfriend. Why did they get married a week later? Why didn't they get married at the beginning of the NJO after dating a few years? The whole thing with Luke is off, and doesn't help the greater problem, whcih is really the root cause of our dislike for Mara.

    She did too many wrongs, for too many years, and has never addressed these wrongs, but takes out her guilt over them on those around her. She should get with a shrink, work it out, go and apologize to the families, and then she can truly forgive herself. She crashed her ship in secret, those families are still grieving. It's not over. It just isn't.

    Mara didn't acknowledge anyone yet. Timothy Zahn is kidding himself if he thinks some conversation in a cave with her lover is redemption. And crashing her ship in private. It's not good enough. Sorry, to the people who like her. It's just not good enough for me.

  25. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    Bear with me on this because I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to put this and no matter what it is bound to hurt someone.

    Ok folks here is a question for you. How much do you blame someone who is 20 years of age and was raised a certain way? Lets say they were raised to believe one race is better than the other. Their whole lives they were raised to believe this, they were never told different and were indoctrinated with literature, TV, and many other forms of influence on to how they think. Do you think they should be blamed for how they think or should the be given the chance to see a new light and from that discover new things. Now I know this analogy does not work well I could not think of a real way to describe how Mara was raised. Perhaps one of you could describe it better. I am not trying to make excuses for what she did, I have never seen her make excuses for how she was either.

    But he's not a murderer. And that's the lowest you can sink, in my book.

    This is an argument where points of view will truly come into play. Their are many who feel anyone who does anything with drugs perpetuate its existence. Thus those who die during drug busts, those drug lords who kill officers, and other attrocities due to drugs can all be blamed on anyone who perpetuates anything to do with it. So does anyone who goes along with perpetuating this system condone the things which go along with it such as murder?

    This is partly why I don't judge him too harshly. Drug smuggling isn't always on par with murder. If you kill someone while smuggling, then yeah, it's a different picture. Han didn't, to my knowledge. Is he an innocent angel? Nope.

    So when Han and Chewie would have shoot outs to escape imperial blockades or local law enforcements and they killed pilots or others does this make the picture different as you put? Because Han has killed others while smuggling. Han was also a theif, con artist, and has a very checkered past. I am not saying Han has not redeemed himself, for in my eyes he has. But you have to look upon Han with a grain of salt also.

    To bring another real life example, Mara's attitude reminds me of child abusers. They do what they want to kids, knowing they're warping them for life, all for their sick pleasure. Mara killed people for her own job satisfaction. Just as many abusers blame the kids, who "tempted" them into it, Mara blames Luke for destroying her life.

    Mara killed for her own job satisfaction or for the satisfaction and what she thought was love of the Emperor? I still wish we could know when she started doing things as a hand. If her age is similar to Luke's than how long was she a hand 4 years, 5 years, 6 years. Its a question I would love to know. We have no ideas, just how many people did she assasinate. Was it only that she did or was she also used to carry out other plans, such as delivering messages from palpatine. I know she was required to break into places and steal. Its a curiousity I would love satisfied one day. I gotta admit the abuser Analogy is not the best way to go(I know all about bad analogies as is evident by the beginning of the post). But I understand what you mean although I do not think Mara and Luke's situation fits.

    OWLC
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