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Mara Skywalker: Horrible Parent, Merely Selfish, or No Big Deal? (RD Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Genghis12, Mar 26, 2002.

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  1. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    The passage which I instantly picked up on was:
      "When Luke and Mara reached the conference room - he with a cup of steaming chocolate in one hand and a cup of caf for Mara in the other..."
    Cup of caf!?! Wahey! Mara is not necessarily doing the best for Ben by drinking caf. I can take from her actions several various possibilities:
    1. Mara is not breastfeeding Ben. This will absolve her from drinking caf as a problem, because no caf will make it into Ben's system. However, we know then that in not breastfeeding Ben, she is not necessarily doing what's best for her child as you cannot replicate fully the effects a child receives from its mother's milk.
    2. Mara is breastfeeding Ben, and could care less that she may be harming him. That is, Mara is a poor parent for exposing her child to caf through her milk during possible breastfeeding period, and quite possibly during pregnancy. Caffeince has been proven to accumulate with a baby and causes detrimental effects. Accumulated caffeine has been proven to result in toxicity in babies.
    3. Mara is breastfeeding Ben and recognizes that caffeine taken in small doses should not have any detrimental effects on a baby. A lot is not known about what is "moderate" intake and the dosages/quantities vary from baby to baby before direct effects are noticeable. Again, I would think that erring on the side of caution would be the better route to take.

    There are several assumptions I have used:
    1. Star Wars "caf" is the in-universe version of coffee - a drink which contains caffeine. I think this is both common sense and rather straightforward. Please don't argue that caf is not the same as coffee or doesn't have similar effects. There is something in fiction known as reasonable suspension of disbelief - that would cause one to have to exceed such reasonable suspension.

    2. There is still much not known about both short and long-term effects of caffeine on a baby. However, it does indeed have a detrimental effect, causing irritibility/crankiness, sleeplessness and a whole host of behavioral problems. In general, a baby will only begin to be able to metabolize caffeine somewhere around the 4-month mark. I note that many are more than likely to be more informed on the matter than I am, especially the mothers out there.

    And finally, a special note must be made that again, Mara may be damaging others by her behavior. By making Luke get her caf, she is making him an accessory to the possible harming of their son. That is, her actions have brought down not only herself, but also Ben and Luke. Regardless of whichever outcome may be true, IMO all cases generally reflect poorly on Mara as a parent. Accumulated caffeine in a baby's system has proven to result in toxicity.

    Yet, Mara has no problems drinking caf. But, this poses some rather troubling issues. We have no idea how long she's been drinking caf. She may in fact have been drinking caf all throughout Ben's pregnancy - which can cause all sorts of birth defects.

    I'm also not truly convinced that Mara may have done anything wrong either. Many parents have nursed their kids while taking in caffeine without any major effects at all. And I don't want to give the idea that drinking coffee automatically makes one a bad parent.

    What I would like is to encourage all responses on the matter of Mara's caf habit as a new mother - both pro and con. That is, do you think Mara is a horrible parent, merely a selfish parent, or its no big deal. And your reasons why.

    I saw it and it raised an alarm with me regarding Mara's behavior.
     
  2. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    I'm definitely voting for:
    1. Mara is not breastfeeding Ben. This will absolve her from drinking caf as a problem, because no caf will make it into Ben's system. However, we know then that in not breastfeeding Ben, she is not necessarily doing what's best for her child as you cannot replicate fully the effects a child receives from its mother's milk.

    Simply given that Ben was left with Leia on Coruscant indicates that she was not breastfeeding.

    Though I do not agree with the assessment that she may not be doing the best for her child. If a mother is heavily medicated during a pregnancy, she is typically advised not to breastfeed because the medication typically extends beyond the pregnancy. Given that Mara was infected with an extragalactic virus that has recently been miraculously cured, it would make sense that she is not breastfeeding, regardless of the medications that they may have been giving her during her pregnancy.

    I may have wanted to slap Mara around for her selfishness in RD... but this is not the reason why. This is actually perhaps a GOOD thing...
     
  3. DarkTreader

    DarkTreader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 2002
    As you said though, there aren't really any proven things about the long-term effects of caffeine intake on a child.
    All through while my mum was pregnant with me, she drank coffee - 2 cups a day, double brewed, extra cream and sugar. I turned out fine.

    Wait.. maybe I'm not fine? Maybe I just think I'm fine but its the caffeine talking? Oh no.. I'm talking to myself ^_^

    (There's one side effect for you =P)

    Anyway though, my point is - Until the child is born, doesn't it just get the nutrients from the mother, not the pure substance? I mean, sure, its gonna get a dose of caf each time she has some, but is it really gonna be enough to harm it? If his body can't metabolize it, it'll just pass through his system, like vegetable fibers do.

    Or am I totally wrong 'bout this?
     
  4. JediFreac

    JediFreac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2002
    Besides, it might have been decaf.

    She is being a responsible parent. Would you rather her emulate Leia and have her kids kidnapped a gazzilion times, dark side inclined, and dead before adulthood? (this isn't Leia's fault, she was forced to prioritize. This is how Mara has chosen to prioritize. She saw what happened to the Solo kids, it isn't going to happen to Ben.)
     
  5. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    Mara's probably not breastfeeding Ben. But you do realize that by insinuating that it MIGHT make her a bad mother because she is seen having one cup of caf, a drink that MAY have caffeine in it, is going to open you up to be eaten alive by some breastfeeding mothers out there? :)
     
  6. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Well, I certainly know that's a possibility, but I don't see how I can possibly any clearer than:
      And I don't want to give the idea that drinking coffee automatically makes one a bad parent.
    :) I suppose some may ignore that and make some diatribe on something which isn't even an issue here - but hopefully such comments are constructive to the discussion.
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well Luke and Mara's home on Coruscant has just been eradicated and they're probably feeling a few million deaths, frankly I'm surprised both Jedi arn't on hard Tatooine Sunbursts, Lum by the six pack, and maybe a few shots of Corellian Whiskey
     
  8. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    Just giving you a little warning Genghis. Mother's can be dangerous. So, watch out for flying objects. [face_laugh]

    I did not ignore your disclaimer. It's just that things like these can be so charged that some get upset at the fact that someone else could even conceive of the idea. [face_smile]
     
  9. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 18, 1999
    And that's what troubles me Charlemagne. As easy as people can dismiss, "caf" may have been "(de)caf," (I'd argue that decaffinated caf would probably be called "decaf" not "caf.") there's also the other side of the coin as well. Because it is "caf" and not "cof," for example, the chance may just as easily be it's some highly-concentrated form of straight caffeine. However, I'd say the most logical out of all is that it's probably equal to regular coffee.

    But we know Mara drinks caf within months of giving birth. Therefore, she may have drank caf while pregnant.

    Had Mara not drank caf at all, and drank hot chocolate or milk like her husband, then there would be no chance of caf affecting Ben at all. Now, that's not necessarily true. The chance is higher because the chance has gone from nothing to something, regardless of how remote it may be.
     
  10. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    Maybe there is a Jedi technique for ridding the system of caffeine.
     
  11. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Had Mara not drank caf at all, and drank hot chocolate or milk like her husband, then there would be no chance of caf affecting Ben at all.

    There's caffeine in hot chocolate. (135 mg to 5 mg for 8 oz.)

    And Jedi can eliminate caffeine from their system probably... "Eliminate Toxin" or somesuch...
     
  12. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    There is, Lianna - "detoxify poison" is a rather common Jedi skill. And it's also certainly easier to detoxify caf than say a bioengineered neurotoxin.

    But it's also a fact that it's not always successful.

    I'd say it would be rather irresponsible for Mara to play such odds using the Force as a tool for her comfort at the possible cost of Ben's comfort. She's rolling the dice on her own son if you accept that "she can just use the force to get rid of it."
     
  13. Fire_Light

    Fire_Light Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Is this a joke?
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    True enough but I tend to side with Genghis. If Mara is using the Force to eliminate caffeine from her bossoms then I must openly state that it's highly more troublesome than mere overextended use of caffeine. That certainly qualifies as frivolous use of the Force.

    This of course comming from a child who never touched his mother and is sure that like he little Ben is a bottle baby
     
  15. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    I thought that there was probably a method out there for Jedi to rid thier systems of toxins.

    If she is drank caffiene while pregant then she is taking a risk with her son. Yet, many women drink caffeine while they are pregnant and nothing happens. A lot depends on how much and how often they do it. My mother drank a soft drink every now and then when she was pregnant with me and I turned out fine. I guess. [face_laugh]

    Fire Light, it probably is a joke. It is just one of those that SW fans observe from reading so many novels ect.. And the thread is just a quircky way to entertain ourselves on the board. Kind of like the thread where it asks what SW characters sing in the shower. :)
     
  16. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Fire_Light...
    Caffeine and babies is no joke. Caffeine can cause all sorts of truly horrible birth defects from miscarriages and stillbirths to malformed babies, such as cleft palates, missing toes and fingers and similar things.

    And it doesn't just stop at pregnancy. It can cause problems during breastfeeding such as irritibility, attention-deficit disorder, sleeplessness, etc.

    It also must be noted that a lot is simply not known about the effects of caffeine in babies.

    The one truth I think everyone agrees on is mothers are advised to err on the side of caution.
     
  17. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    Did your mother drink caffeine when she was pregnant with you Genghis? [face_laugh] Just kidding. True, caffeine and babies is not joke. But why is it on this board? :confused:
     
  18. DarkTreader

    DarkTreader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Because we're all bored out of our skull-bones, an there's no other fun an interesting topics that we can discuss? ^_^
     
  19. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Lianna, because...
    We have a mother...
    We have a baby...
    We have caf...

    and we have...
    ...that mother driking caf :)

    It's here because it all takes place in the latest Star Wars novel.
     
  20. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
    Maybe you're right Genghis. Anything and everything that happens in a SW novel is up for discussion. [face_smile]

    Possible Threads:

    What color socks do Jedi wear?

    Why is Chewie naked?

    Anyone have any more suggestions?

     
  21. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    If Chewie is considered walking around naked normally, were he to wear clothing what color socks would he wear?

    And would he get them from a Jedi?
     
  22. Lianna

    Lianna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2001
  23. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 14, 2000
    [remembers the Underwear speculation thread]


    :)
     
  24. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I'm CERTAIN my mother drank coffee when she was pregnant with me because she was doing a general surgery residency at the time and had to get up for work at 5am. She worked up until the day before she had me, I believe. Maybe the day of. But anyway, I'm also sure that she probably drank coffee when she was nursing me (or using the breast pump which is what women who have to be away from their babies do) and she also drank "a beer a day to help the milk come in" as her OB told her to. Stupid doctors.

    I'm also basing this on the fact that she hasn't changed her coffee drinking habits for as long as I've known her. She drinks a pot a day of Maxwell House French Roast. It's this poisonously strong coffee. If I had even a sip I'd probably throw up! (I have a conditioned taste aversion to coffee because of one really bad night so I get my caffeine from other sources such as Mountain Dew) So, I'd say I turned out relatively normal. If I didn't it's more likely that it's due to the fact that my parents aren't overly social people and other stuff like that, not due to some drug.

    Jae Angel
     
  25. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    Well, Ben drank formula in SBS... so I guess that sorta settles that.

    Anyway, this whole thread seems a little... Earth-y.
     
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