ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

@Talos of Atmora sorry but i dont remember at all Ben saying he had planned the burning-and-slaughtering thing? In the movie he does this as a response to Luke's attack (the way he sees). Had Luke not ignited his lightsaber nobody knows if this would have happened and if Ben would have eventually rejected or not the dark side. That's IMO the "beauty" of this tragedy: Are we
we predetermined? When is it too late to "save" someone? Where's the line? Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby...and eventually fail and unwillingly "create" Hitler as we know him?

 

I don't think it's there just to take some blame off Kylo at all. In fact, I think the blame for his actions still falls on Kylo. But Luke would still feel he failed Kylo, and obviously it's a failure on his part - though IMO an understandable one that fits his character - that he has that instinctive moment that ideally he wouldn't have had. But I think it is there to explain why Luke is so broken. Luke has to feel responsible - even if Ben and Snoke deserve the lion's share of the blame - for his guilt and shame to have broken his faith - in himself and the Jedi. It can't be a half measure, I don't think. The moment of consequence and shame has to be intense for it to shatter Luke the way it does. It does also help plant the seed for Ben's possible redemption - which does need to be a thing in order for Rey's motivations to work. But I think that's fair - and it's OK for the scene to hold several dramatic functions at once. I think it's really smart writing.

 

I really don't see how it could possibly be seen as out of character, when Luke did a very similar thing in the past as well. On the second Death Star, Luke completely snapped when it got mentioned that Vader and the Emperor might try to turn Leia to the darkside. He managed to overcome this after having beaten Vader and cutting of his hand. It's just odd to assume that Luke being able to make the proper decision after something made him react on instinct would somehow mean that there could never be a decision again where he might first react on instinct as well. The argument that Luke would not react in such a way because he already overcame that when he didn't kill Vader completely fails to take into account that this is comparing two completely different things. It sets up Luke's rational decision against Luke's reaction on instinct, when what should be compared is the two rational decisions.

The scenes play out on exactly the same way:
1) Luke reacts on instinct to the talk about turning Leia -> he attacks Vader -> he realizes what just happened and decides that this is not the way to go
2) Luke reacts on instinct after seeing how far to the dark Ben already is and what looks to happen in the future -> he raises his lightsaber -> he realizes that he can't kill Ben over this

The only differences between the two situations, are that Luke makes the right decision much quicker the second time around, and that in the first one Vader is beaten on the ground - making this something where only Luke has to make a decision - while in the second one Ben wakes up and has to make a decision for himself. He proceeds to attack Luke over what he is seeing, even though Luke has already backed down.

Luke's behaviour perfectly matches his past behaviour. Being a Jedi Master doesn't mean that there aren't moments where you are shocked or react on instinct. It means that once such a moment occurs, you end up calming yourself and make the right decision. Which is exactly what he did, as he didn't attack Ben.

The whole scene still ended up causing Ben to destroy the temple and join the First Order, so Luke definately has something that he could use as reason to blame himself, especially when you take into consideration that he already thinks he failed in recognizing this darkness earlier. That whole thing definately is traumatic enough to make Luke turn into the person he was when Rey found him.

 

Yeah. I think it's very much "in character". Now, sure, I get the argument that Luke should have learned from what happened with his father but a) the contexts are very different, and the pressures facing Luke as a teacher are very different from those facing him as a young man and b) Luke would probably agree. It's a moment of failure. He spends the next 6 years so broken by his guilt and shame that he believes the galaxy is better off without him, and by extension - the Jedi. He knows the Light will rise up somewhere else. He's not against the light rising up at all. He just hates himself (and the Jedi) so much that he can't see it still lives in him - and the Jedi.

 

He doesn't have to say it. After he saw Luke looming over him, he did not attempt to run away. He destroyed the temple, killed many of the students and took those who had joined him. That isn't just something that happened instantaneously. That's why that whole scene is not tragic in any sense. It also makes Ben's reaction to Luke's action strange because he's essentially angry with Luke for correctly identifying him as a traitorous deceiver. The only thing that makes it even seem remotely tragic in any sense is that the film attempts to gloss over any wrongdoing on Ben's part.

You know, these would have been somewhat interesting questions on the film's part had they actually shown Rey struggle with the notion of killing Ben in order to weaken the First Order. However, it didn't and therefore, I find little reason to give it credit.

 

I agree that Luke's actions are exactly in keeping with his character. The example of him coming close to striking Vader down and then catching himself and doing the right thing, is very similar. Luke is different than Anakin or Kylo, because he is tempted to not always do the right thing, but is able to calm himself, and choose the light side.

I still think that it would be great if we see a fully manifested Luke emerge in 9 again, showing his true power. He's gone to the other side, but can still manifest physically, and not just in ghost form. He doesn't have to have an action role, but aiding Rey and then helping to train a new generation of Jedi would be a fitting end for him, especially after his heroics at the end of TLJ.

 

I just want Force Ghost shenanigans where he simply appears before Kylo Ren and doesn't say anything.
Same goes for Anakin Skywalker, who just looks on in disappointment at what his legacy has become.

 

This is exactly why it is out of character. Luke has been through this trial already. Everything Luke learned and worked towards in the OT comes down to this trial in ROTJ. This is the very moment he becomes a Jedi and ascends above the petty dark side temptation BS. The Emperor could sense immediately that Luke could not be corrupted after that moment which is why he moves to kill him.

To make Luke face the same trial 20 something years later, after saving his father and the galaxy from the dark side, only to make the same mistake then cut and run like a coward is out of character and bad writing by someone who doesn't understand what was really happening in the OT. It's not narratively satisfying in the least. That's my opinion anyway.

 

Disagree. That flash of darkness is in Luke, and always has been, and is not something that necessarily goes away because he passed a different version of that test 25 years previously. And - if you'll remember, Luke ultimately passed the test again. Despite the fact that he would have saved the lives of millions, he could not kill Ben Solo. To me, it's in character for him to face such a test twice, and to pass it. And it's also in character that the moment of shame and consequence would break him the way it does. That's not bad writing at all. I think it's very good writing to hinge it all on such simple human emotion, within the mythic tragedy that runs through the entire saga.

 

Luke being a force ghost is just not the same as him still being alive and his character can't be salvaged at this point IMO anyway. The damage is done. RJ and KK didn't understand what Luke stood for or deliberately chose to sacrifice his character for shock value or in an attempt to be edgy. It's a shame he had to be wasted in support of such a mess of a movie that just rebooted the galaxy once again to Rebels vs Empire. Such a terrible waste.

Personally the only thing i'd be interested in is Luke pulling a Gandalf the White or having teleported into that time warp from Rebels. Anything else I don't care about.

 

I'm glad it worked for you.... or that you were able to convince yourself it works for you so you can continue to enjoy Star Wars going forward. I'm jealous, wish it worked for me.

 

Well, I completely disagree but I won't take it any farther than that.

 

Did Luke being in Kylo's hut with his saber drawn push Kylo further to the dark side? It's a fine theory, but I don't think TLJ establishes that. It's just as likely, based on what TLJ shows us, that Ben was simply angry at Luke, and mostly himself for letting Luke nearly kill him, before he could get the drop on Luke and unleash his anger on his own terms instead of in a rushed manner in "self defense." By Luke's own dialog, darkness had already taken root in Ben's heart, and there's nothing in the film to make us question this claim. Sure Luke shouldn't have killed his nephew, but that doesn't mean that almost killing him made Ben even more evil.

 

I just can not and will not ever accept that Luke would consider killing Ben without just cause. If Ben had actually already done something or attempted to do something, then maybe I could have bought it.

 

All Skywalker men have darkness is their soul. Luke and Leia had to drag around the baggage of being Darth Vader’s children. Luke’s added burden as an active Force user was to not repeat his father’s mistakes. He wanted to remain pure. Luke saw using darkness ‘unlimited power!’ as a weakness. Ben Solo did not. He saw being related to Vader as something to brag about. Luke put all the importance on Anakin Skywalker, a man who he never knew, if only for a brief moment onboard Death Star II.

 

That's just it, you are comparing things that are completely different.

You don't "pass a trial" and then are home free for the rest of your life. You are challenged again and again to do what is right. You are confusing the emotional response with the rational one. Luke reacts in shock to what he sees, and ignites his lightsaber based on that. And then he does the very thing you say he doesn't do: he decides that this is wrong and that he cannot do it. This is as much in line with his character as it possibly could be. Especially when you consider that the circumstances surrounding this are completely different, putting him into a position with much more responsibility. In ROTJ he has accepted his death as a likely outcome, and only wants to help his father. In the scene we see in TFA/TLJ, he has to raise the next generation of Jedi, he is responsible for their behaviour. Not only is this the first time teaching others, but it is also the first time he has to decide what to do with those who stray away from the right course. In no way is that decision the one he had to make in ROTJ. What is similar is the setup, and him making the right decision once he could make a rational thought.

Luke doesn't run away like a coward either. He sees something that isn't working, something that apparently has a bad influence and causes bad things to happen, and proceeds to take that supposed bad influence out of the picture by exiling himself. There is nothing cowardly about deciding that you may be a bad influence that hurts others. It turned out to be the wrong conclusion, but that is something entirely different.

And what is it with these rubbish accusations along the lines of "I didn't like it, therefore the author doesn't understand Star Wars"? It's just utter nonsense.

And this bit is even worse. Suggesting that others had to "convince themselves" directly indicates that you don't believe a person could possibly see something that you don't. As if any position that isn't the same as yours could only be achieved by fooling yourself, to pretend that you like something you truly don't. How nice of you to try and cover it up with drenching the rest of the post in trying to be nice.

 

@themoth Completely and utterly wrong about Ben.

Vader is not something to brag about for him. On the contrary, it's yet another expectation of destiny put upon him that he can never, ever live up to. He couldn't live up to the Light Side legend of Luke Skywalker and he can never be as evil as Darth Vader achieved because he's too conflicted and emotionally weak. Vader is a manipulation from Snoke; a carrot of what he thought Snoke wanted him to achieve and what he was manipulated into believing was a fulfillment of being the monster everyone told him he was. As we see and in the novelization, Rey is taken aback when Ben acknowledges he's a monster, but it only brings him misery. He had rumors of being monstrous ever since he was born--first for rumors of his appearance and birth well before knocking things off shelves and technical malfunctions started happening around him. He doesn't want to be seen as a monster, but he thinks it's all he can be. He wants approval and is deeply lonely, feeling he's always been unlovable (Snoke's influence from an early age to stoke doubts of acceptance and probably suggesting everyone's afraid of him and can't understand him). After Luke's betraying act (he had not made a decision after all--in fact, he had been fighting Snoke's mental influence for 23 years already), the only approval he felt he could ever still receive was Snoke's.

Vader also represents a family betrayal of sorts. Note that Luke, Han and Leia all kept that secret from him until a media scandal exposed it when he was 23 years old and the whole family was publicly shunned because of it. Even Luke's heroic story of redeeming Anakin was under suspicious doubt, not merely Leia's loss of her political career.

He was born a target of Snoke (already interfering with him in the womb) because of a man he never met who died before he was born. It became yet another reason he had a predetermined destiny he had no control over with all these figures he can never seem to please because he's unable to be Light or Dark. By killing Snoke, Ben was killing his lifelong abuser who hung Vader's legacy and destiny over his head, knowing he would never live up to it. The novelization actually spells that out. Snoke didn't believe in Ben as anything other than something to manipulate for power with lots of easily stoked triggers that kept him from ever winning approval. It's why Snoke asked him to kill both Han and Rey--he knew they were weaknesses. Snoke knew Ben loved them and those acts would break him.

And we can now see what he really thinks of being Vader's grandson when he smashes the helmet he uses to hide the sentimentality, conflict and weak emotions that Snoke blatantly shamed and tortured him for. In the novelization, when Snoke orders him to remove the helmet, it's because he's literally crying behind it. Kylo Ren is a mask for Ben Solo. He puts on that mask and he can hide behind it as he seeks Snoke's approval in living up to the legend of a dead man. As with his family before him, Ben gave everything he had to earn Snoke's approval that he never could receive and Snoke had no intention of ever granting. Snoke stoked his tortured soul, knowing he could never turn fully to the Dark, no matter how hard Ben tried. As Ben could not prove one of the heroes, he instead tried to prove himself a villain, only for it to cause nothing but misery because it's not balance. His natural state is balance in the gray, just like Rey.

For Ben, being of that mighty Skywalker blood is a BURDEN that brings him misery and loneliness, not something to brag about. If he were a nobody like Rey, he wouldn't have been targeted already in the womb and feared because of who he's related to. When he described her as not being part of their story, it wasn't a negative, but a positive. He's basically been telling her all along she wouldn't want to be part of their story and that she'd be disappointed to have the family she thinks she'd want. Although unable to let go of the past himself, he wants to kill it precisely because of how much of it has been a multi-generational tragedy that has continued through him. Wanting to kill the past is definitely not bragging. He hates his predetermined destiny.

 

Ha, no convincing needed. It worked for me and many others as the filmakers intended it to. I can see why if someone doesn't buy the hut scene, Luke's arc is not going to work for them. But, fortunately, I think the hut scene is one of the highlights of the saga. I genuinely think it's genius.

 

Thanks for that jab at the end there. My intention was to refer to my own struggle in trying to convince myself.

Like i said, I'm glad it worked for you.

 

Luke was overcome by emotion by what he saw. It triggered a snap instinctive reaction. Luke came to his senses a moment later and decided against that impulse. And yeah it's not that different from when he snapped in ROTJ except it was much much shorter and over much more than just a threat to one person's life.

 

You've been shown with clarity how your reasoning regarding this is either fallacious or invalid:

"the same mistake" -- (it's not, here's why...)

"cut and run like a coward" -- (emotionally charged mischaracterization of the truth, in these ways...)

"out-of-character" -- (it's not, here's why...)

"bad writing" -- (emotionally charged claim with only demonstrably inaccurate or equivocal supporting arguments)

"by someone who doesn't understand what was really happening in the OT" -- (claim is either unsupported or is presumed supported by other arguments that have been identified as fallacious)

It was no more of a "jab" than the statement to which it was a response--your arrogant attempt to belittle those you've repeatedly failed to convince:

"I'm glad it worked for you.... or that you were able to convince yourself it works for you so you can continue to enjoy Star Wars going forward." -- (i.e., only through a voluntary dismissal of the truth can it "work" for someone of my intellect)

Your intention was also to make a thinly veiled claim of superiority to those who remain unmoved by your arguments, which have been exposed as weak.

When a statement like this is tacked onto the end of audacious commentary, regardles of how many times you say it, it's going to be received as patronizing.

 

Let's play nice in here, folks...

 

I'm not being arrogant at all. I expressed my reasons for not liking the movie. It's your opinion those reasons are weak and nothing I've read here has made me think any differently about it and that's ok. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm dead honest that i'm seriously sad I can't see what others can in this movie. It's not for lack of trying. TLJ just doesn't sit right with me and it mainly comes down to the handling of Luke.

 

I'd like this post three times if I could. I also don't understand someone who dislikes the last movie so much, spending so much time pointing that out in the the forum for the next movie, and trying to convince others who like it, that they're right. Hey, to each their own though...