ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

I agree that a less nuanced and interpretative approach with more of him spelling out his feelings as they're evolving would have allowed his arch to be better understood and possibly connect with more people. However, such a choice could have also lead to a less passionate emotional connection overall to others who may also be moved by this journey for personal reasons associated with themselves that they are personally seeing in his arch and will continue to unless Johnson spells out invariable that they are 100% wrong for feeling that way, which doesn't seem like, or indeed most artists, would do. Some people could possibly be connecting with his arch passionately because they have personal connections to, or are interested in, or sympathize with, any of the following:

* PTSD and guilt.
* Loss of faith and finding it again.
* Projecting internal problems onto others or other causes.
* The value of seeking help when in crisis instead of shutting one off.
* The value of accepting your biggest failings, learning and admitting you were wrong and learning from them.
* That fear over becoming the worst parts of your parents isn't enough. That only working through that fear and learning to accept that you may have an aspect of your parents within you that shames you is the first step toward increased control of it.
* Apathy over the state of the world and how hard it is to make change or break the cycles that seem to keep repeating.

And probably a lot more that I haven't envisioned others applying to his arch but possibly could because of the nuance and interpretative approach.

So, on the one hand going extremely nuanced and asking the audience to think and imagine how he got here and why and what he's thinking more has undoubtedly hurt it from connecting with more people on some level but on the other hand the approach allows others to connect with it in their own personal ways much more passionately and see their own personal struggles in Luke and his eventual rise as a form of motivation in ways they might not if it was all spelled out into something extremely specific, limiting some of what have discussed or some of the bullet points I shared above.

That's one of the reasons many painters and song writers don't want to spell out all aspects of their works. I happen to think it's one of the reasons TLJ will age well on lists from film taste makers assessing blockbusters into the future. Even if I, personally, wish some of it was less nuanced myself.

 

I love the crunchy bits in Star Wars. But I don’t believe RJ had to sacrifice surface comprehensibility and enjoyability for the sake of nuance.

I also don’t think being extremely obscure and meta equates to nuance.

As I said, I believe, for various reasons, that the movie withheld important information from the audience, info that will be explored later on. Which is fine, standard, whatnot. I just don’t think it was well-executed.

 

Theoretically, how would Luke have corrected his mistake and stopped Kylo Ren? I see this a lot, but I think fans are missing the nuance and difficulty that Luke is faced with. He can't be the one that brings Ben back, no more than Obi Wan could bring back Anakin, as he's the source of a lot of Ben's anger and hatred. We see this in the movie. The only other option is to kill his nephew, yet this is the thing that they say Luke would never do. It seems like fans don't really know what they want. And Luke having tried previously doesn't really change anything either. If anything, it compounds the failure and doesn't make it more palatable.

 

There's a Dark Side cave quality to the first impressions people have for Luke as well that I find fascinating. Who he seems to you depends on so much of what you bring with you to those initial encounters on Ahch-To. 4 distinct groups in particular would come to his beginnings on Ahch-To from very different places. The first 3 share more unified traits that I think we've all probably observed on this site and elsewhere.

1) The EU fans who've gone on journeys with Luke before as an older man. These folks feel they knew him more than anyone as a result. Fans of adaptations turned into movies can generally be frustrated with changes they liked in the book that didn't make it, or were changed on-screen. Now imagine being told ALL of what you read was wrong and merely legend. It's this group I sympathize with most because they were most impacted. Not only did they spend significant time with a character in such a way that to them was of equal value to the films themselves, but they experienced their own life lessons and enlightenment through their version of older Luke in those stories. In the teeth gnasher thread you can sense a strong EU contingent for obvious reasons. The alt right guy who claimed to release the bots and all that was also very angry over the dismantling of the EU. These people are the most impacted and it's easiest to understand their anger, cynicism, sarcasm and outright wish that TLJ never happened. It's very hard to imagine any in this group being able to connect with the film due to the very personal journey they went on and the betrayal they feel and I suspect it will remain that way for the vast majority of them indefinitely. They're lost in the new cannon and feel excluded and purposefully abandoned. I sympathize and acknowledge the power and number of their voices but I don't think there's any denying that the levels of scrutiny and sarcasm and anger they will bring to the cave have less to do with assessing the artistic value or storytelling value of the film and how it functions as escapist fare objectively and more to do with the very personal journeys they experienced which were then abandoned.

2) The most optimistic Star Wars film fans who didn't delve into the EU very much but did love Luke Skywalker as presented in the OT and who largely remembered the best of Luke Skywalker and less of weaknesses, acts of recklessness and the assessments Yoda had of him and his potential for failure and Dark Side weakness. For some in this group once a weakness has occurred and life has moved on it is unlikely to ever return again because they're optimistic that it wouldn't. And happiness and victory, once achieved, last a lifetime because they're optimistic that the good times just keep on coming all the way through life. I simultaneously admire and sympathize with these people as well. These folks try to see the brightness in life where they can and try to see the best in people where they can. They were probably some of the first to sympathize with Vader and some of the happiest that Luke and Vader were able to connect. It pains them deeply that Darkness has returned and impacted the lives of the people they had hoped were going to get what they wanted out of life to such an extent that some are saying they can't enjoy the end of ROTJ the same way. Unlike the first group who went on many journeys with a different Luke and missed him, I think that some in this group, based on their nature of trying to see the best in people and trying to find the light in life, are more likely to become one of the people who post in that "reformed haters" thread as they start to sympathize with Luke more and find happiness in his ability to overcome his problems and join the light. The reason is simple. It could have been worse. He could have never found the light. He could have never saved Leia. he could have never been able to join his father in the Afterlife. He could have not become a Force ghost. He could have not inspired the public. Optimists have a way of considering how much worse things could have been for the people they care about and using that to appreciate what they have.

3) The new fan who only really knows of Luke Skywalker from osmosis and popular culture references growing up. People in this group might be young, or could be the children of a Star Wars fan, or could be in their teens or early twenties who avoided the prequel trilogy for whatever reasons they had but decided to get into this. To those people Luke simply is who he is. He's a retired hero that was once revered and loved who's fallen on hard times and wants to remain retired. I suspect for some of these people the journey is very different and more about whether Rey, who they may see as their hero, can learn anything from this curmudgeon or not, and gain any knowledge from those books or not. For them it's probably about whether her actions are able to inspire this old man or not and if he doesn't come back then to them... he functions more like Yoda did to us as kids... or more like Elrond or something in LOTR. A supporting character in their hero's saga who is meant to challenge and test and develop her in some way and then leave the story for her. That he eventually realizes her value and returns is probably seen more as a reminder of how special she is to this fight and his sacrifice probably feels closer to how people who only knew Obi-Wan from ANH as kids felt. Remember that there are generations of people who saw Obi-Wan as simply an advisor to their hero who then died. They didn't know his backstory much. They didn't go on adventures with him like PT fans did. He was just an old guy that knew about the Force and who knew the protagonist's father.

4) Everyone else who doesn't fit one of those 3 more specific groupings of the public for reasons that disqualify them from those groups.

All 4 groups come to the cave with different pasts and it's been very interesting to see how they all view Luke for different reasons.

 

I’m wait-and-see.

I honestly think that the movie deliberately invited certain questions and criticisms, knowing that they’d be addressed later on.

However, if you didn’t like Luke in LoLS, and didn’t like him at the end...well, that’s the canon Luke Skywalker, and if it doesn't mesh with your interpretation I think you’re SOL

 

Eh, to some extent canon is what you say it is. The EU wipe proved that. So if ANH, ESB, ROTJ, Zahn Trilogy is my "saga", it is what it is. I've generally come to terms with that, but I do think Disney has dropped the ball in a massive way for the more "traditional" Star Wars fan (I know that is only my opinion and not shared by all).

 

Oh yeah, I was really just talking about official canon.

 

Absolutely. I guess I just have a different impression of "official" after the sale. If for instance, Google got huge (huger) and decided to buy Lucasfilm from Disney for, say, $20B, and then said, hey we want to re-approach the post ROTJ time period and are wiping out 7, 8, and 9. It's the same story. Since this isn't a documentary, I'm not going to be beholden to "official" being dictated by who has the largest bank account. I think I was beholden to George's "official" as the "author", but after that, it's all just different companies making different canons (again, to me). Might as well be mine.

 

Well Luke could have gone and captured Kylo and imprision him on one of the islands on Ach to and force block him so he can’t call for help

 

I envy your excellent attitude!!

 

I'm curious about what things in particular, JoJo, you feel were setup but not yet resolved that you hope are resolved in IX and think may be. I've seen you mention this several times and I'm curious what it is specifically you feel needs to be resolved more in IX.

Unrelated to that I've read several times that Rian ignored JJ's mystery boxes. With the exception of the Knights of Ren, who beyond the flashback and one honorific line that Snoke used, it's not like they were set up that much. I personally do expect them to return in IX somehow because I know JJ likes them and it would be as easy as explaining that they were on a mission of importance to Snoke and them learning excitedly that their friend is the new leader to increase some of the antagonism and threats in IX given that they are expected to be Dark Side users. However, beyond that aspect, and I suppose a Snoke backstory, I'm not exactly sure what mystery boxes people felt JJ set up that Rian ignored.

 

I'd say a short list of what he ignored includes (at minimum and just off the top of my head):

* Snoke/all Snoke related plotlines (formation of First Order, seduction of Kylo, backstory, plans for First Order)
* First Jedi Temple as plot point (why was Luke heading there in particular, why was there a map that people knew to follow)
* On the map, how it came to be, what role the village at the beginning of TFA played in its location.
* The nature of Luke's lightsaber, how it came to be with Maz (which was essentially directly teased in TFA)
* Knights of Ren

For purposes of the Luke discussion, I think the most damaging there are the Snoke seduction piece, the lightsaber piece, and the jedi temple/map piece.

 

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Anyone read this article from JGL on his basic review of Luke Skywalker in TLJ?
Basically he alludes to older people understand this precept and younger people who have yet to grow into that viewpoint. I wonder if anyone has polled the like/dislike between several age groups and genders and produced a tally. Do you think it would have any bearing on the current agreements or lack thereof?
Its one of those things where I understood Lukes journey but did my own lifes experience contribute to that or is this view taught to me?
One thing he said is no one is a perfect villian or hero and this is so true. The EU could kill off people but they made Luke pretty much all powerful...which is not to say he isnt in the new canon so im looking forward to seeing those storys come about. I know one thing for fact. When i was in my 20's i roadied for a bunch of seattle bands and other bands such as Helmet and Soundgarden, i had long hair, i was against the establishment, i drank a crap ton of alcohol, i threw major major parties, i did everything backstage/offstage you can think of. Today, i live a quiet life, i listen to music on an old stereo. Today I surf waves because its solitary and its just takes me to do it. I walk my dog. Fire my pistols, draw my arrows, sail on the calm days and tie all my knots, and take fencing lessons...The kids are grown up. I like the ocean. Everything is the anti thesis of my youth. It was not intended, planned, desired or anything. I kind of miss my wild long haired days but i dont feel like i need to be that way today, ive tempered myself and life is so much more interesting when you wear more than one coat.

 

According to the Visual Dictionary, Luke took years, traveling around the galaxy, to learn as much as he could about the Jedi after Palpatine did everything he could to wipe them out. Only after that did he start taking on students, which would explain why he only had students (and no other Jedi Knights) when Ben went dark.

I don't think he had Force ghost-y advice ( until Yoda showed up with a bolt of lightning ). It looks like that is the one thing they kept from the EU.

 

Now that we have seen the progression of Luke Skywalker from innocent farm boy on backwater planet to Jedi Knight to hermit, I think it is worth looking at his journey in relation to that of George Lucas. From the beginning, Luke was the stand-in and avatar for Lucas himself--the kid from Modesto that was looking out to the horizon. After film school, Lucas joined with the new generation of filmmakers that were taking on the old studios and sought to make new types of movies. I'm not looking to ignite any PT vs. OT or the like battles but I think there are some parallels between the Lucas story and where they took Luke in TLJ. Luke in the original trilogy largely follows his life from Modesto the success he experienced with SW and Indiana Jones. Like Luke, he emerged from obscurity, joined a ragtag team of rogues and took on an empire (the studios) and triumphed. In TFA, Luke is missing (just as Lucas is missing). In TLJ, we are shown his Jedi Academy failure, which pushes Ben Solo over the edge. I'm by no means suggesting that the prequels were a failure, but they garnered a mixed reaction and some disappointment. Following the Jedi Academy/prequels, Luke/Lucas gives up. They both enter a self-imposed exile and leave the story. When Luke finally does return, he isn't really there at all.

Not sure if I'm making much sense, running a fever/have the flu but there is something there. Probably not a conscious decision but the arcs line up in a way.

 

You touch on everything I love about Luke and Rey on the Island. It really is him coming to grips with what he did, but not letting it define him in the end.

 

The more I think about it the more I realize the Force ghosts function in the stories and make me just as happy to see and hear as when the characters were alive. It’s not like Luke had a wife or kids (sorry EU readers) anyway. When I think of Obi-Wan’s scenes in TESB and ROTJ with Luke it’s not like they’d function very different in substance or intent if he had actually been alive and saying those exact same things. Same for Yoda. We had Yoda in TLJ. It felt like Yoda. He functioned like Yoda and made me feel the same things Yoda always does.

So, why will it be any different for Luke? Especially if the Force ghost Luke looks and sounds as happy as Luke did in his Astral projection in the end.

 

So then what's the big point/difference of becoming a Force ghost? Pretty much nothing, except I guess that they become indestructible and immortal.

And now since they can interact with the physical world, shown in TLJ, why don't Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, and Luke all march over to Kylo and face him all at once? And then start a whole new Jedi academy together, training new peacekeepers for the galaxy.

 

Same way Obi-Wan could interact with the trees on Dagobah. When at such a Force sensitive place more Force magic is possible. ;-)

More importantly, that Force moment on Ahch-To didn’t harm anyone physically. Obi-Wan says clearly that he can’t interfere in the battle so there are some rules involving beings perhaps.

Whomever sets the rules or agrees to them over there may have also allowed a one time miracle at the site of the first Jedi Temple involving Luke Skywalker because of what he has meant to the Light and because he’s having a criss of faith.

 

Force ghosts were actually first shown interacting with the real world all the way back in TCW. Qui Hon lifts Yoda using the force.

 

Well the point is that you become more powerful when you become a force ghost. So I would argue then being immortal and indestructible is the point and has been the point since ANH.

Also force Ghosts have been interacting with the environmentsince ROTJ.

And perhaps Force Ghosts can only appear to those they have interacted with in life.

 

I tend to think that the reason the Force spirits generally choose not to become physically involved in the conflict, is that whilst they've retained their identities and memories, as part of the Force, they're also subject to a larger picture, against which the struggle between light and dark in the physical realm seems, if not inconsequential, then just part of an eternal ebb and flow between the creative and destructive forces of the universe, and that in the grand scheme of things, balance will be eventually return anyway, and so on, and so on. And yet, the reason that they do sometimes decide to appear to advise their former students and friends, is that whilst they do see this bigger picture, they also retain their identities, and so cannot help but feel a responsibility towards them and their cause.

Of course the real reason is that you can't have Force ghosts appearing Deus ex Force, and getting the heroes out of trouble every time things go badly for them.

 

Yeah, I think people need to fairly allow an element of plot logic - something which runs through every SW film and most movies in general.

I wonder if in ROTJ there is a (headcanon) explanation for old Ben and Yoda not intervening, and that’s because they know only Luke has a hope of getting through to Vader. But that cuts against their belief that Vader can’t be turned I suppose. Basically, they (the writers) wanted Luke in the maximum danger, and having allies there was not helpful on that level.


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