ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

Interesting that now that negative posts about Luke aren’t welcome here that those who kept complaining about us because we were stifling their discussions and taking away their enjoyment by our negativity, now have nothing much to discuss.

 

We're talking well about the character in the ESB/ TLJ thread now. The character's arc is providing some good debate fodder.

 

Yeah. Some interesting parallels (IMO) being explored but that thread seemed better for it because it's a thread whose whole purpose is TESB and TLJ comparisons. Including what people like about TESB and don't about TLJ or vice versa.

 

Luke got what was coming to him in ESB.

Trying to remember a moment in the movie in which he's not acting like a petulant toddler and not coming up with much.

Of course that's by design and the story would probably be pretty stale if he wasn't arrogant and whiny, but he really goes out of his way to establish that he's not at all the ideal candidate for this hero business.

Which effectively makes his characterization in ROTJ--as this pious, enlightened jedi--rather incongruous.

 

They prepared Luke to fight his father. Everything else related to actually building a Jedi Master is Luke flying by the seat of his pants and trying to present himself as one as much as anything else. Jabba laughs at him when he announces himself. Han does too. He shows lack of control when he Force chokes in Jabba's palace. In many ways he's fronting and over-confident. It's hubris as he'd later recall in TLJ. Hubris because he thought of himself as the Mighty Luke Skywalker.

He was ill-equipped to build a thriving Jedi Order and teaching young people about the Force. He did the best he could with what he had to work with but his big mistake was blocking out the family secret after the war was won and not learning from his own near failure in ROTJ and his father's failure and using both to teach. He has no real comparison from which to build a Jedi Order. He, himself, wasn't taught at a young age either. He also doesn't have any kids of his own. Most of all, and the entire point of his arc in TLJ, and Leia's in Bloodline, is that the Skywalker children were ashamed by their family secret and kept it hidden from everyone (including Ben Solo). They didn't utilize their father's failure as a teaching tool. They didn't use his temptations and his failure from young Jedi to Darth Vader in lessons. They didn't demystify Vader and remind the youth of how much he actually lost of his life, of friendship, of family with his choices. They tried to let the past die and it came back to bite them in huge ways. Yoda helps Luke realize this. Leia in Bloodline has already come to regret this choice too.

It actually makes sense that his Jedi Order attempt wouldn't be a smashing success. He was trained to kill Vader, and his own love for his father stopped him from doing that and lead to his father's awakening. He still carried huge issues with him to work through after that and had very little experience building or running a Jedi Order on his own with young people and all of the issues young people bring to the table.

TLJ is very much about how the Dark Side offers easy solutions and temptations related to emotional pain avoidance and that the Light Side is the harder path toward enlightenment and one that asks you to confront your fear (including fear of the past, or fear of family legacy, or fear of what you might become, or fear of confronting a choice you made... even if you realized it was a huge mistake right after) in order to learn it and grow beyond it. Yoda helps Luke realize that avoiding the past won't make it go away and that burning the past down won't either. Only by facing and accepting his personal role in failure and the personal role his father made in his failure and the personal role that Ben Solo made in his failure will Luke come to realize that the Jedi can't be blamed for the choices the Skywalker family have made. Luke realizes this and becomes his old self again. Rey realizes she needs to come to terms with how awful her parents really were but that their choices and lack of purpose doesn't define her potential, and that just because she's been abandoned and rejected by others doesn't mean she needs to sacrifice who she is to be with someone simply because he wants to be with her.

 

On Dagobah he was impatient and whiny. Not sure about arrogant. Petulant for sure.

On Hoth, he was a capable commander in an invasion of his base, and on Bespin he bravely stared down a superior foe and ultimately decided he’d rather die than be taken captive by Vader when he was defeated and humbled.

He had about a year between ESB to put into practice what he learned from Yoda and he clearly learned to calm himself and control his emotions, something he was unable to do in ESB. And don’t underestimate the impact his total failure on Cloud City had on him. Yoda and Kenobi tried to tell him, he did his own thing anyway (albeit for good reasons) and he had to saved rather than being saved.

He learned a lot.

That’s where the time factor between films is so important, IMO. He’s already grown up a lot from ANH because three years have gone by.

 

I thought the character was quite brave and heroic in ESB. Him going to help his friends against the "eh, let them croak" advice was to me the markings of a hero. And under no circumstances do I think he got "what he deserved" in that movie. He suffered terrible consequences for trying to do the right thing and that made it relatable and tragic to me.

In ESB I didn`t think "finally, something smacks that upstart down" re: Vader and Luke.

That he had grown more by ROTJ felt natural and organic. It was a year after ESB, not two days.

Rey doesn`t either and she will most likely magically succeed. If the ST had been done when the OT actors were still young enough and it was done by Disney, I bet Luke would have succeeded, too. Movie magic.

 

We have no idea how the family secret was handled. Aftermath suggests Ben wasn’t told, but he knows in TFA. So something happened in there somewhere, but for the 90 percent of people who saw TFA and didn’t read Aftermath, it is the elephant in the room.

That we don’t know the circumstances of who told Ben what and when about Vader through two films is downright bizarre to me.

 

If it's not yet directly relevant to the stories we've seen so far, I don't see why we need to know. At some point we'll get those story gaps filled in.

 

Anything can be called irrelevant if it is ignored. That doesn’t make it so.

The second Kylo used the word ‘grandfather’ in TFA a murmur went through the crowd at my showing. Luke finding out the truth about Vader was the seminal moment of the OT.

Yeah, you CAN tell the story without that piece of information. I’m just not sure why you’d want to.

 

We didn’t need to know the specifics of how Vader turned to enjoy the entire OT.

Unless you are committed to a prequel style slow build you’re better served narratively just focusing on what matters most in the here and now and not trying to satisfy fan hunger for backstory over everything because that stuff always sounds on the nose and takes people out of the films more. That was actually a prequel issue despite it having the benefit of unfolding in real time.

We already received some flackbacks and Force backs in this ST, which is more than we ever received in the OT.

You either show it in real time with a more drawn out story like I-III or you use a flashback / Force vision but once you start having characters talking about their pasts for extended time periods it becomes problematic fast.

http://www.scriptmag.com/features/meet-reader-story-exposition-let-explain-much

 

I agree, but I think details enhance and enrich a story.

 

What do you mean?

 

Yeah. If it was / is specifically relevant to the story unfolding, we will find out about it when the story needs us to. Exactly as we always have done with previous films. Not knowing every piece of backstory is not the same as us being robbed of crucial backstory.

 

What do you folks make of the notion that because a hero has a period in their life that is dark and sad that everything else that happens in their life becomes irrelevant? Even if they end up giving all that they can to help in the end and find peace and make amends for their mistakes in the end?

There seems to be this idea from some that anthology films for Luke in his prime won’t be fun simply because of the 7 year exile period of darkness that’s known that will follow it before he becomes one with the light.

The prequels have their faults but one of their biggest merits (and it’s the same as seeing Vader in his prime in RO) is that seeing the earlier versions of characters you know and love that you know will face later struggle and eventual death STILL compels and excites.

I can easily imagine a terrific anthology Luke film in the future starring Sebastian Stan that is almost EU-style Luke in terms of heroics and action against an interesting villain (potentially even a younger Snoke to flesh out his backstory more) while simultaneously better setting up his eventual dark period even better. Imagine him briefly learning about the Lew’el Tide concept of the Force on screen. Imagine one of them telling him that if the Jedi stop interfering the Force will awaken in someone new whose destiny will be to meet and either defeat or turn the rising Darkness. Inagine the Yoda equivalent of the Lew’el telling him the Jedi seem to be a common issue in his family at a younger age and him dismissing it. Imagine some MCU style crossover with Alden’s Han and him tussling a young Ben Solo’s hair before heading out on an adventure but seeing some dark moments from Ben at a younger age. Imagine them talking about Vader but then hearing Ben walk down the stairs and changing the topic immediately. Imagine Luke telling Han his retirement plan after building a Jedi Order is to find the first Jedi Temple and live out his days there. Protecting it if necessary and knowing how his philosophy would later change from that. Imagine Snoke’s influence rising but Luke not knowing who it is at that time and imagine Sebastian Stan’s athleticism in a green light saber duel as Luke versus a new enemy.

Would any of you be up for that in time and do you think it could be done in such a way where it simultaneously enriches both the tragedy and the eventual triumph of TLJ Luke?

 

I'd definitely be up for Stan as Luke in an anthology film - or even TV series? Especially one set in the early post ROTJ days.

 

It ultimately depends on the context.

Scenario A: Luke achieved that the galaxy had gotten rid of Vader and the Emperor. The GFFA is liberated, the future looks bright. Now comes an alien invasion from outside the GFFA but Luke resists to help. Doesn't make his essential accomplishment irrelevant, he already made an immeasurable contribution.

Scenario B: Luke achieved that the galaxy had gotten rid of Vader and the Emperor. The GFFA is liberated, the future looks bright. But as a result of (t)his liberation things just get worse and give birth to the First Order that ultimately kills billions of people. Makes his essential accomplishment irrelevant and makes him wonder if he should not have better joined Vader in Cloud City as such a mass murder would have never happened with him being around.

 

I have been thinking about this and trying to dig something good out of Luke's actions in TLJ. I can't find it. All I can seem to come up with is he was a brief distraction for the remaining resistance and his sister, to run out of the back of the cave. The only reason you know they escape is because there's another movie. He didn't really train Ray very much, he complained the entire time did the little he did, and he didn't even actually fight to defend the small resistance fighters left, including his sister. For me it is the biggest insult they could have come up with for Luke.

What did Luke actually accomplish in what was suppose to be his focal movie of the ST?

 

Besides i think the Vader reveal created a big rift b/w Luke, Leia and Kylo.

Why else suddenly Kylo will start to worship a grandfather he never knew about?

I really think there's a story there which hopefully FG Luke will have to recite for us in 9.

If not, well we can chalk it up to all the things left unexplained in the ST.

 

And him training Kylo and his other students and travelling the whole galaxy?

I would totally watch it.

 

What if

Approaching it from the perspective of accomplishment would be like approaching Obi-Wan Kenobi’s life from the perspective of accomplishment immediately after he dies in ANH. At that point what had he really accomplished that we know of? What did his presence really provide Luke? He didn’t raise him. He didn’t train him. He sat and waited and then lied to Luke, brought him into a fight he wasn’t ready for, and then died in front of him. His real guidance came after via Force ghost so we should probably afford Luke the same and see what JJ does with Luke in IX via Force ghost.

Without looking at it from a perspective where you’re assuming episode VIII should be the Luke Skywalker lifetime achievement reel and instead view it more from the storytelling and dramatic perspective of what did this retired senior citizen Luke overcome over the course of his film the answer becomes much more profound.

It’s the story of a veteran of war who may have at some point sought out the first Jedi Temple as some kind of bucketlist retirement goal who instead comes to make it his own personal purgatory. One that’s quite literally holding him back from the ultimate goal in his life arc. Being able to make it into the Force afterlife and be with his father and mentors. He’s experiencing a crisis of faith at the end of his life and literally shut himself off from the Force. If he remains this way and dies at any point spear fishing or from anything he may simply die. He hasn’t spoken to his mentors in years because he knows they don’t agree with his perspective. He’s shut himself off from everyone. If he dies now he never sees his twin sister again. He never apologizes for anything that’s eating him up inside. He dies losing faith in, and possibly destroying, the Jedi Order he’s devoted his life to. He dies without working through his issues and becoming enlightened.

Any Luke fan should care more about the stakes of all of that then any kind of victory that could be engraved onto a trophy. Our hero needs saving near the end of his life now. Our hero needs to heal and find his way back. He does! And what’s more he realizes Rey’s potential and that he will not be the last and shouldn’t be the last (presumably Yoda told him while looking at the fire once he realized the mistake that Rey actually had the books the whole time).

He apologizes to Ben Solo. He apologizes to Leia and says one final goodbye. He becomes what Rey wanted him to be to show her she isn’t alone and doesn’t have to lean on the Dark Side for answers through Ben Solo. He reminds Ben Solo of the tremendous power of the Light just as Obi-Wan did to help spur Vader’s imagination again in ANH.

In addition to literally the stakes of determining the soul of Luke Skywalker... Nobody but Rey and Leia truly know what happened. To everyone else who was there that day Luke Skywalker was somehow there and fought Kylo Ren and seemed invincible and then used magic to disappear like a Wizard. And the return of the last great hero from the war inspired the public as we can see on screen at the end and his announcement of a new Jedi likely has too. It doesn’t matter if he doesn’t return in the same manner again. For now there’s hope and Rebellions are built on hope.

 

If nothing else, Kenobi stopped Darth Vader from becoming all-powerful and from getting his hands on his children at birth.

Imagine if Vader defeated Kenobi, took Padme with him, and had along with Palpatine raised Luke and Leia in the Dark Side.

 

Mid-fifties is not "senior citizen". Remember, Luke isn`t Mark`s age. Where I live, you got more than a decade till retirement at that age.

For me accomplishment is the one thing that does matter. Because if there is none had, ultimately I feel like a story was pointless and a waste of my time. If a character never amounts to anything and never accomplishes anything, then I don`t want to waste my time on a story about them, period. That`s universally true in all fiction and for all characters for me.

Which honestly wouldn`t be that big a deal to me. This is all just so self-involved. If Luke wasted his final years and that`s why he didn`t get into basically force heaven, well, that`s a consequence for wasting his life. Noone forced him to do that. It`s not stakes I`m invested in or ever could be invested in if that was solely the story. As frosting on the cake, it`s fine, but as the cake itself? Not so much.

In terms of your question about a possible anthology movie that depicts a Luke in his prime, maybe a quest/adventure movie with searching for Jedi lore, yes, I would welcome one. Especially if it held some accomplishments. And Sebastian Stan would make for a nice casting IMO. As TV show, I`m more iffy about. Would prefer a movie, to be honest.

I would watch either one with the caveat of ignoring what comes after though, same as the OT. Unless episode 9 recontextualizes episode 8 in a significant way. That`s the thing with both Luke and Han for me. I love them enough in the OT that they always have that to fall back on and I would be able to enjoy ancilliary materials of them pre-ST with that fall-back mentality. If they were brand-new characters, they would be toast in my book.

It`s kinda like Schroedinger`s Luke in its own way.