ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

Also "let the past die" seems to be Lucasfilm message not just in this movie but to this trilogy. They killed Han in TFA and he was just mentioned twice in TLJ, now they killed Luke and destroyed the blue lightsaber...

 

This is pretty brilliant. Thanks for that, Pym.

I disagree completely. There's a difference between letting go of the past in order to focus on the present and destroying the past out of hatred. One of these is a healthy way to move on from the past, while the other isn't. We see both on display in TLJ. Kylo wants to destroy the past and everything/everyone with it. He hates what he was expected to be, he hates what has happened, and he thinks anything that has to do with the past is holding him back from becoming what he's meant to be. Completely resents everything and everyone associated with his past. Luke has a hard time letting go of the past at first, clearly. But by the end of the movie, he has accepted and let go of the past in order to focus on his actions in the present. He does what he can to save Rey, Leia, and the Resistance.

That's the difference that the movie wants to highlight in terms of handling the past, IMO.

 

I don't know, the movie seemed to point out that both Luke and Kylo were in the wrong for thinking like that, and wasn't that the point of Yodas whole speech that you shouldn't kill the past, you should use it to learn from your mistakes and flaws?

 

“I can’t be what she needs me to be.”

“Lose Rey, we must not.”

Present tense. ie, “To be continued...”

No to mention the fact that Luke and Rey need to reconcile after how they parted in TLJ. (Tropes will be tropes...)

Yes, death has meaning. And I’m pretty sure Luke is dead. But he’s also now, canonically, immortal. And Space Jesus is due for a Second Coming

@sls062286

Yes. And RJ expressly clarified that “let the past die” is NOT what he was going for.

I mean, Kylo’s a Villain....by definition his philosophy is pretty flawed....

 

I think Luke and Yoda are talking about not lose Rey to the darkside like they lost Ben and Luke doesn't think he is the hero that Rey wants (like she said in the deleted scene, she believed in the myth of Luke Skywalker but he disappointed her). It doesn't prove to me that Luke will come back and I'm not catholic so I don't imagine Luke as Jesus

 

What does Luke being like Jesus have to do with anything? Force Ghosts are already an established concept.

 

I'm talking about "Space Jesus is due for a Second Coming".

 

Yoda said they must not lose Rey. I don't foresee Yoda and Rey powwowing in IX.

Luke's line about being what she needs him to be was answered in TLJ. He showed up. Then he died. He became what she needed him to be.

Luke and Rey "needed" to reconcile in TLJ to have anything that qualifies as an arc in that movie. It didn't happen. Rey has the books. She doesn't need Luke for training. He completed his arc - he became what she needed. Rey now has to finish hers on her own. That's the arc RJ gave her - she needs only herself (and books).

 

One of the central concepts of TLJ is facing and overcoming painful truths and realizations versus blocking them out, repressing them, killing them or burning it down. Johnson worked in a lot of Jungian concepts into the difference in Light and Darkness in this way. In the end the Light side users accept their painful pasts.

 

The idea that Imperial remnants might have actually idolised Luke could have been interesting.

After WW2 General McCarthur became a subject of awe and reverence for a section of the Japanese populace looking for a new Godhead after the emperor was defeated.

It would have been fascinating if Luke's detachment from his friends (already evident in Jedi) was contrasted not just with his failure at the Academy, but with the fact whole swathes of former imperials actually reverred him as a new Sith.

Perhaps Luke even feared the dark side in himself, another reason to hide.

Perhaps Snoke needed to destroy him to unify his faction. At least that would have been a readon to be looking for him. Anyway...

Luke on an island actually made sense to me. I could easly see that progression.

RJ just didn't get us there in TLJ imho. Hopefully JJ can join some of those dots.

 

I posted this earlier.

That would be foreseeable, still, in Luke's mind even if it isn't already happening. A new Emperor who believes that he is still the good guy.He's surely afraid of that.

He experienced how feared and despised his father was, even by himself before discovering who he was. He had to resist the temptation to try and succeed his father and ultimately Palpatine in order to induce his father to turn his back on it. It was because it would most likely mean the death of his father or he would die having never had a father, as he puts it on Endor.

Ben is not faced with the same dilemmas or experience so has not had the wisdom to foresee those consequences. And as youth often does, he wonders "Why not?".

Insufficient fear, in respect of the darkside, was a weakness of Ben's, you might say. Luke declares he wasn't afraid enough when he saw Ben's potential. In a way, Luke wished that he could have made Ben more afraid the way he was. Because the thing about being courageous is that it's not about lacking fear. It's about being afraid but doing what's needed anyway. "I'm not afraid../...You will be."

Of course what happens when Ben becomes Snoke's pupils is that fear is perverted. It's used to try and make Ben turn his anger on those that are concerned for him, for fear of losing favour with Snoke and the promise of power. Fear of not fulfilling his destiny by taking the path he's chosen.

 

Yoda wasn’t a major character. Luke is.

Not what she needs him to me. That’s what the galaxy needed him to be. Rey draws an explicit distinction between what she needs and the galaxy needs earlier in the film. The use of the word “need” in relation to Rey is pretty significant in TLJ, imo.

She doesn’t need him for training, right. But she still needs him to be something. At that wasn’t resolved in TLJ. Because it will be resolved in Ep 9.

 

She's not just looking for him to teach her. She's looking for him to be a hero that saves the day again. Luke is trying to get her to understand that she can be that hero.

 

I wasn't arguing about who is a major character. I was arguing against the notion that discussing Rey in that way means they will share important scenes in the next movie.

RJ's movie made Rey accept that she only has herself. The teeny tiny bit of character arc that he gave her was about her staring at herself in infinite mirrors. It doesn't feel open-ended to me with Luke. Luke and Rey had no relationship, and nothing felt unfinished. When Rey said he went peacefully, that felt like the end to me. Now if you interpret it differently, I respect that and maybe I'm wrong. I just personally don't get the impression from the movie that RJ foresaw IX being about more Luke and Rey bonding.

 

I think it's defnitely set up by RJ that there is more to play out with Rey and Luke (and Luke and Kylo).

Her leaving is a real kick to him, and he realises he's failed her as well as the Galaxy and his sister.

 

Right. They both failed each other, initially. But Rey was not tempted, in the end. And Luke was induced to fulfil his legend and his destiny. Denying Ren the opportunity to fulfil his misread destiny and hugely undermining him in front of his new Imperial subjects in the process. "I will not fight
And you will be forced to kill me." has been surpassed by, in effect, "I will not fight. And you can never kill me." You cannot kill a legend. See you around, kid.

 

One of my favourite parts of the novel is the third flashback. It's like Kylo knows he's been busted so commits.

When Kylo sees Luke standing over him, it says this:

And immediately Luke knows it is too late - he has already failed his student. Because Ben's eyes are open - frightened but aware. The boy's powers with the Force are already immense, and still growing. And is is a Skywalker.
He knows what Luke thought.
He knows what Luke saw.
He knows what will be.
Desperate, Ben's hand reaches out, not toward Luke but beyond him, to the lightsaber he has constructed. Willing it into his hand, its blue blade a killing blow aimed at his master.

 

The bonus is that Ben was denied the dubious honour of striking Luke down. This would have been it for Kylo. He would be at the apex. And if there was ever any hope of salvation. that would have wiped it out. Luke remembers how witnessing that on the first death star filled him with hate as sure as his father was as he did the deed. Kylo would have been consumed with that AND supreme leader, which his grandfather never was, to boot. Not giving Rey, and the the resistanc, the motive of revenge completes Luke's victory.

Now. Kylo Ren has nothing. A destiny placed eternally out of his reach by his uncle.

 

I’ll be shocked if Ep IX were about Luke and Rey bonding

I’ll also be shocked if there is no Luke and Rey bonding

I expect Luke’s role in 9 to be smaller than in TLJ, though, of course.

What I can’t tell, though, is whether you’re saying that the movie made sense to you and you just didn’t like it or the movie didn’t make sense to you (in important ways, at least). The dialogue in lesson two explicitly seperares what the galaxy needs and what Rey needs. They’re literally stated as two different things. The galaxy needs a legend. Rey needs something else. Luke returned and did the “legend” thing. Luke became a legend again for the galaxy. He still owes Rey, however.

 

Luke tells her she needs a teacher when she is called to the jedi text and Rey says she needs someone to show her a place in all this during the second lesson. Those are the only times her needs are mentioned with Luke since she is more concerned with helping the Resistance. I don't think it goes much deeper than that really.
By the end of TLJ Rey has found a place though Luke and Kylo didn't help her directly. But I still think she needs a teacher and he will be one of her many teachers. I think they will bond a little and have a better relationship going forward. I think Yoda using 'you' for Luke and Kylo's past and 'we' for Rey and everything that will happen moving forward means that she will get help from more than just Luke.

 

How exactly has anything about Rey's needs changed since she went to Ach-To. She went there to help the Resistance get Luke.
He reluctantly taught her a couple things, then they parted on mad terms. He only did anything after Yoda chewed him out. He really didn't do anything for her personally, accept those two reluctant lessons and even then he was just trying to make her see why the Jedi should end. I mean I get where they were going at the end before the death and him feeling her understanding that he would be with her, but it'd have been nice to actually have a bigger sense of closure between the two, especially with the last time they saw each other.

 

Luke and Rey relationship was a big disappointing. Same about Poe and Leia (that slap still make me uncomfortable)

 

I just find it odd that Luke thinks he's entitled to use the X-Wing as his own personal ship. He did it in ESB when he went to Dagobah, and apparently he did it again when he went to Ach-To. It's a military vehicle, not his personal ship. If I joined the air force, I couldn't just decide to take an F-15 out for my own personal excursions. I'd get arrested in no time. And not only does he "borrow" them, he also has a habit of crash landing them.