ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

Let’s see why Snoke went from being content to keep an eye on Luke to doing everything in his power to destroy Luke.

Might be relevant....

 

I always think that the line in the OT that sets up Luke's Force Projection trick perfectly is "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack."

Anyway, if one looks through the deleted scenes, I think one of Mark's funniest line readings was actually cut when he's talking about Rey running to the Caretaker village he starts to sagely inform her and then cracks up halfway through with "You just ran so fast!!"

 

Apparently RJ didn’t want to cut that scene. It was cut late in the game and he said in an interview that he never thought that scene would be cut

A pity. It gave important context.

 

I really don't understand how this validates TLJ at all. Of course the point of TLJ is that Luke gives in to the dark side, almost murders his father in anger, then realizes his mistake and throws away his lightsaber. The whole point of the criticisms many of us have been making here is that TLJ has Luke completely forget the lessons he learned through this encounter so that he can re-learn them all over again in a much inferior story. Posting this here is a complete non-sequitur because as far as I can see absolutely no one here has demonstrated that misunderstanding of the throne room scene in their criticisms, and because a proper understanding of the throne room scene is in fact key to most of the criticisms that have been made.

 

1.) Mercifully we were spared from such fan-fiction.
2.) If happily ever after was the ending of ROTJ, then a ST would have been pretty irrelevant. I feel like starting from a strong republic would be worse than what we got. It would feel totally contrived to me to have a strong republic end up on the brink of failure from some new threat. That's not continuing a story, it's starting over. It's just "adventure number 2" instead of the third installment of the original story.

For continuity, we couldn't really have just started clean from a new republic, new jedi order etc. It would only make sense for that to be way off in the distant future. We all wanted more of the original cast, and that meant either finding a way to continue their struggle or just write a new adventure.

We're in act 2. Let's see what mysteries may be revealed in act 3 before we decide that nothing makes sense. We know things happened, more than was shown on screen. We SHOULD be asked to understand that. We don't need that story to be explicitly told and I fully expect that we'll get some additional enlightenment after IX.

But for people who hate Luke not being the main hero it won't be enough...

 

I didn't think that too many people actually misread the ROTJ scene, but I think it brings continuity to Luke's behaviour. The hero of ROTJ was Vader. Once we got to see the PT, it became more clear that this was really the story of Anakin's rise, fall and redemption. It's subversive to the hero archetype. It's not straight-forward story telling and it helps make the less-straight forward storytelling of TLJ seem more fitting.

Honestly, Star Wars was due for a shake up. I never really cared for the Finn/Rose story line, but I was about to be annoyed watching a lost-cause almost not work then end up successful at the last minute. I remember watching it for the first time and thinking "I can't believe they're going to do this again." Then they didn't and I thought that it was a good decision.

 

Starting a piece on the beauty of Luke’s arc in TLJ by arguing a dismissive strawman against critics is a bad way to bridge the divide. I don’t think any critics of Luke’s story in TLJ read that article and had an epiphany over how wrong they were. I don’t remember ever engaging with anyone that thought Luke defeated Vader and Sheev with his big strong manly man muscles.

I respect that people see this in many ways, but I completely disagree with the notion that the hero of RotJ was Anakin. Luke saved Anakin with love, and in doing so he outwitted Sheev. Luke has always been and will always be the hero of the OT in my mind. The PT added the Chosen One prophesy, and that was simply incorporated in in that it took Vader and Luke’s connection, with Vader being Sheev’s apprentice, to defeat him.

I don’t see any reasonable arguments how or why Luke would forget or ignore those lessons to become essentially a bitter PT Jedi. The entire point of Luke in the OT was that he rejected Obi and Yoda’s ways, and he was right. They were wrong. It’s all for nothing anyway, though, because with the ST, even putting Luke’s characterization aside, the Chosen One prophesy has become null and void. It was nothing but a curse on the galaxy. The Skywalkers are net evil.

 

Then perhaps Mcintosh isn't speaking to you? Or universally? I see no such claims in his tweet. He specifically addressed "a handful of The Last Jedi haters" that appeared in HIS "mentions" who seem displeased with Luke in TLJ because they think of him primarily as a "great warrior".

I do think it's disingenuous not to acknowledge that many Luke fans absolutely saw him primarily as a warrior, and his entry into this trilogy as the advanced-beyond-belief great Jedi warrior that he "deserved" to be. How many theories were pushed that ended the film with Luke taking up lightsaber and striking down Snoke? The Knights of Ren? Kylo? Luke was going to be this badass, and lots of vitriol post-TLJ has emanated from this disappointed expectation. Obviously this isn't the sole reason for the outcry, but it's an undeniable factor for some.

Luke's greatest moments of weakness in the throne room all lead to him attempting to strike down the Emperor and Vader. In the end he chooses to be a pacifist. When confronted with that level of evil again, manifest in his own nephew, he is understandably tempted to take up his weapon again. It is a moment of intense, painful testing that he "wins", but the consequences were brutal.

So here we meet a disillusioned Luke, who is trying to find new answers to the old questions. Trying to expand his mind. Willing to turn the criticism inward, and backward. But he holds true to the lessons he learned in ROTJ, and during Kylo's fall; he is a committed pacifist. He will never wield a saber again, something that is NOT made clear by the close of ROTJ. He is unlike any Jedi we've seen before, and unlike his own twin sister. Yoda appeared to be on a similar path of evolution, yet he still was willing to train Luke to fight Vader. Luke has made the decision that the fighting stops with him, and he will not pass on war.

But how do you get Luke back in the fight, affecting change, and displaying his awesome Force ability without compromising the great lesson of his life? Well you do what RJ did, and to brilliant effect I might add.

 

I think it's disingenuous to equate people wanting to see Luke in full-on Jedi mode, which many people wanted to see, with those people supposedly misinterpreting his heroism in RotJ. I've literally never seen what he says people were saying about RotJ argued by anyone.

Luke isn't searching for new answers to old questions in TLJ. He went to Ahch Tu to die.

 

Perhaps seek out the mentions he's specifically addressing?

And yes, as somebody who's posted along side diehard Luke fans for years, I do think a lot of his most staunch lovers get key points about his history, and personality, wrong. I too wanted to see badass Luke, which is what the old EU served up. But I think RJ found a better path for Luke, one that resonates richer, deeper and in closer congruence with Luke's journey through the OT than all the many crappy "full Jedi mode" fandom dreams.

Luke came to Ahch-To, with it's ancient connections to the Jedi, as a relatively young man to "die". He did not immediately commit suicide. Are you suggesting that because Luke ultimately wanted to never leave the island, and eventually perish there, it means his mind shut down and he stopped thinking, contemplating, searching?

 

He says people only saw this:

If you've seen people argue that Luke Skywalker's RotJ heroism was a result of defeating Darth Vader with his great warrior skills, you've talked to more obscure fans on the internet than I have, and I've been in deep with the saltierthancrait crowd.

As for your last paragraph, yes that's literally what I'm saying because that's what TLJ portrayed. Luke went there to die, to shut off his brain, to cut the force off. He didn't read the books per that silly wannabe book burning advocacy conversation he had with Yoga. He wasn't searching for a way to win. He was bitter and depressed and he wanted the Jedi to end and that was his means of accomplishing that.

 

I haven’t see any fans complain that Luke isn’t the main hero.

One can care about how a character was treated without thinking they’re the story’s main focus. That sort of attitude gives me the impression that thise who level such accusations are viewing the ST with extreme tunnel vision.

 

I find the argument ridiculous anyway because Luke was treated like the main hero in TLJ, not Rey. He got the hero's journey in that movie, not Rey. You can't credibly, imo, argue that people that dislike TLJ just wanted Luke to be the main hero when that's exactly what the movie in actuality gave us.

When people say they wanted Luke to be a badass Jedi, intentionally or not, they're arguing for Luke to fill the mentor role. Obi was awesome in ANH, such that he could be with special effects. He was wise, he was right, he dueled, he survived death after dying on his own terms, but his story function was to guide Luke. Luke's function should have been to guide Rey as she faced her own rock bottom, not to be the hero at the end after hitting rock bottom himself.

 

So when did Luke's view of the Jedi, the Force, the lessons he learned and tried to teach Rey, evolve? The day before he got to Ahch-To?

You might be more connected to some EU material, so perhaps you can shed some light on this for me.

 

@fugacity , I actually think the the number of people who wanted/expected Luke Skywalker to be the main hero of the ST is extremely small. Until TLJ, I was a huge Luke fan, but I didn’t expect Luke to be the most important character. What I wanted was for the character of Luke Skywalker to be respected, and I wanted him to train the new hero, rey, and to start to rebuild the Jedi order. I didn’t get any of that. I am not angry and disappointed because my favorite character wasn’t the big hero of the film. I am angry and disappointed because my favorite character of film and the hero of many generations of kids was totally disrespected and deconstructed. For me, he was completely ruined.

Even if Luke hadn’t been in any of the sequel films at all, but was remembered by the characters with respect and had left a small Jedi order, I would have been okay with it. I would have been disappointed that I didn’t get to see him in another film, but I would have been satisfied that he left a legacy and his integrity was intact. Even seven months later, I still find it hard to believe that they treated the character the way that they did and left him with nothing: no accomplishments and no legacy and no offspring. And his death was terrible. Luke Skywalker basically died from using the Force, and he died alone and unmourned.

That’s why I am upset with Luke’s role in the sequel trilogy; not because he wasn’t the hero of the trilogy. From reading the posts of many other people in the last 7 months, many, if not most others seem to feel the same way.

@JoJoPenelli , you and I are in agreement. I was writing pretty much the same thing while you were posting it.

Edit: Well said, @AhsokaSolo !

 

I don't know what specifically you're asking. Luke's lessons to Rey in TLJ were for the explicit purpose of teaching her why the Jedi needed to end. He was trying to explain to her why the Jedi are the problem.

I have read some of the NEU if that's what you mean, and I have no answers to anything from that material. IMO most of it has been a waste of time. I enjoyed Legends of Luke Skywalker, which is a collection of Luke Skywalker myths and fables post-RotJ. The problem with that for me, and I know others disagree, is the Luke Skywalker presented in that book looks, feels and sounds like RotJ Luke, which obviously to me TLJ Luke doesn't. There are some comics that take place during the OT where Luke sounds more like TLJ Luke. Honestly it's like there are two different characters that go by the name of Luke Skywalker throughout new canon.

 

Even in the new Disney post-ROTJ supposedly canon he doesn`t just go and cry in a corner somewhere whenever a fight is afoot. And why would he even carry a lightsaber if he never wanted to pick one up again? To be decorative? I don`t think even Disney wanted to say that Luke turned into such a little whiner that he never ever ever was willing to fight for good again.

He doesn`t need to nor does he get to make that decision. The darkside passes itself on just fine and even the good guys will always find some people with spunk and bravery who are actually willing to fight for a just cause. Which is needed for good to actually win. If you just lay down and take it, I wouldn`t expect the bad guys to stop.

As the movie IMO showed, you can`t. I mean, all Luke ultimately did was just stand there and dodge Kylo`s blade a few times. And he did a force projection for a few minutes that he died from. Is that really that impressive? Guess, I`m way harder to impress then. And, yes, slave children (and metaphorically others) were apparently inspired by this. Again, I just feel like someone fired a sole little rocket and then pointed to a sign that reads "absolutely amazing fireworks display". Factually, that is what the sign says so I can`t argue what is written on it, I can however debate on whether the real display filled the criteria for me.

I completely disagree that Vader was the hero of ROTJ. Never saw it that way, not even after watching the PT. And I don`t think either the OT or the PT are all about being subversive. Which is something IMO only works when done with a deft hand and sparingly, not as glowing meta commentary that is the point of the thing.

As for shaking things up, I generally don`t consider something turning from something I like into something I loathe a positive shake-up. Now I think it sucks, hooray for change?

We`re pretty much litterally re-doing Empire vs. Rebellion after the failure of generation Loser. It wouldn`t be possible to start over more than they did. You don`t need to watch the OT now, you can just skip from the PT right to the ST because the OT story really is pointless in that continuity.

 

EXACTLY.

That’s the real Luke. That’s the canon Luke. And btw in the latest interview with the author, he heavily implied he had access to the whole TLJ script while writing it AND additional Luke materials not yet revealed.

Because Luke throughout TLJ is NOT himself. Luke at the time of the bedside scene is not himself.

The answer isn’t the RJ has no idea how to write Luke. The answer is that something happened to Luke that changed him. Something serious enough to reduce Luke Skywalker to a bitter, depressed exile. It wasn’t just Ben’s fall.

Yes, yes there are.

 

I agree with you about all of this. I don’t believe that Luke ever intended to become a pacifist for life when he tossed his lightsaber in RotJ. In the situation that he was in at the time, with two darksiders and aboard the empire’s Death Star, he knew that he wasn’t going to win by wielding his lightsaber. That didn’t mean that he would never again use it or never again fight. He was a Jedi, and Jedi are supposed to stand against evil. Most of the time, one cannot defeat evil by standing or sitting around and doing nothing while evil-doers cause havoc in the galaxy. I don’t believe that Luke’s saber toss meant that he would never fight evil with a weapon ever again. As you said, unless good guys are there to fight the bad guys, those bad guys aren’t going to stop doing bad things on their own. Evil wins when good guys do nothing...

I also agree with you about the force projection. It was extremely LAME. As you said, all Luke did was dodge a couple of times. So he withstood the AtAt fire? So what? He wasn’t really there, so of course it couldn’t touch him. The fact that Luke DIED for some unknown reason after doing the projection really makes the trick look very unimpressive. I might have been a little more impressed if Luke had survived, and if the multiple force Skypes of rey and Kylo hadn’t been so very similar to what luke did. That Skyping actually was far more impressive of a feat for them and especially for snoke who was controlling two people in different places across the galaxy, and it didn’t kill or even cause any of them to sweat. That made Luke’s projection look far less awesome.

 

I’m sure Luke will be awesome in 9.

 

Before he got to Ahch-To, yes.

"I came to this island to die"

His negative mindset was established before he went there. Luke basically ragequit after the fiasco with Ben and went to Ahch-To to die and take the Jedi with him.

The lessons about the Force came from ESB. There's nothing new there.

The history of the PT Jedi was learned before he went to Ahch-To, yes.

 

What about Mark Hamill's other performance in Last Jedi?



Actually I totally didn't know Hamill did the mocap for the guy as well!

https://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-mo-cap-performance-canto-bight/

The director obliged. “Rian made a little cameo for Mark,” Morris said. “We brought him after the main shoot to our ILM and performance capture stage in London. We spent an afternoon with him, staging those moments with Rian. That was quite bizarre.”

Morris continued, “We actually built the gigantic wire frame BB-8 that was a little to the right side so that Mark was the same height as the toad dude. So, we’ve got this enormous BB-8, like the Christmas bauble, that’s made out of wire. I think Mark had a great time. And we leave that as the basis for his performance ideas for the character.”

 

Luke’s temple.

 

Really the "Luke was a pacifist in ROTJ" thing again...…And the "He rejected Obi-Wan/Yodas Jedi Way"

After this Im just not going to bother anymore about debating this...because it appears till the end of time people are going to view ROTJ like this

First He didn't Reject Obi-Wan and Yodas Jedi Way and their Jedi Way wasn't what a lot of people think it is. They never told Luke that Killing Vader was the only way. Obi-Wan only told him that he must face Vader again and that fear of battle with his father cant keep him from fulfilling his Jedi Duties to protect the Galaxy. Luke running away and avoiding the conflict altogether was what wasn't acceptable to them. They trusted him to find the right path in the moment.

Next He was not a Pacifist. Yes its true his first option was to not fight Vader, and Yes he threw down his Lightsaber and wouldn't give in to the darkside to try an straight up overpower Vader/Sids….but he didn't walk on to that DS with his only plan being to have Vader turn......No his back up was to take advantage of Sids over confidence and stall long enough for his friends to blow them all to hell. He wasn't going to turn to the darkside to do it, but he had no problem having his friends do it either.