Amph MARVEL CIVIL WAR

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by Obi_Will_Kenobi, Mar 7, 2006.

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  1. one_armed_scissor_14 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2005
    star 3
    That's why it's the Marvel universe. I didn't say it had to make sense, I said that's how the government has operated in the past. I didn't make generalizations, I just gave an example.

    And by the way, mentioning the Stamford incident is not a good idea since it's the catalyst for the entire Civil War storyline.
  2. varza Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2002
    star 4
    it also takes into it the fact that anyone with abilities has to be trained by the government... which makes them into a possession of the government and can be used as weapons against any enemy with no choice.

    You have the encroachment of civil liberties and the ability to keep their families safe. Which once they are registered their entire lives become subject to search and common knowledge to anyone. Including their enemies who will use this to harm anyone close to the costumed brigade. They will never be allowed to have a private life again. No way of living a normal life because of the fact that they will be known everywhere they go. If they don't do something to stop harm from happening anywhere near them - even in their sleep - they will be subject to people harassing them.

    Lets take someone not of the Marvel universe... Batman. The Riddler found out who Batgirl was and found her connection to Batman and the Commissioner. What happens? He shoots her and tries to kill her. The end result? Batman is damaged and can not function as he normall could because of this. On top of that the commissioner starts to hate him because of who Batman is and their relationship deterorates. And Batgirl is in a chair for the rest of her life. Yes its a choice but still... knowledge is complete power.

    Superheroes who are out to the world and everyone knows who they really are have no life beyond their job and they are the center of anger when anything goes wrong. Look at Johnny. He had nothing to do with the incident but because everyone knows who he is, he is attacked and nearly killed because of it.

    This is no way in parallel of a sexual abuser - personally I am offended you would compare the two in anyway. But this is more like the desire for many after 9/11 to register every Muslim and/or persons of middle eastern descent in the country. Like the camps after Pearl Harbor and so on...

    What they are saying here is that they should not be forced to live in a cage because someone screwed up. Its a look at the world with a problem that many have with catagorizing everyone as the same because of the colour of their skin, religion, job, etc... and our fear of anything different. Everyone loves the heroes until somehting goes wrong. Outing themselves should be a personal choice. Those that keep their identy secret for saftey for a reason. Those that don't are already known to the Marvel world...

    BTW - I frigging love this comic and feel its one of the best written in a very long time. Cpt American had me shouting out loud when I read the 1st one.

    These are just my thoughts and not well said but there you go.
  3. one_armed_scissor_14 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2005
    star 3
    Well, I didn't buy it. I think I'd rather have Neil Gaiman's series instead.
  4. Lonestar52 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2005
    With Regards to Spider-Man, I was thinking in the context of him not killing Carnage halfway through the "Maximum Carnage" story. Had he been Government Sanctioned, someone with two brain cells would have said "Clear and present danger. Kill him."

    The Stamford Incident, as has been said, was "The Straw That Broke the Camel's Back."
  5. Lonestar52 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2005
    Oh, like we don't have gun safety courses in order to own a gun in some States? And the Registration act indicates that if you choose to be a Hero you become a civil servant, if you don't want to work for the Law...then don't dress up and beat up people in the name of "The Public Good"!


    Nat edit: But that's fiction and sex offenders are in real life. Comments like that are offensive, especally to those who have been hurt by them. This part of the discussion needs to end.

    Oh, so because some people are crappy drivers and I'm not I shouldn't have to get a license?

    Not the same thing. Please try to keep a respectful tone and understand where he's coming from.

    It's about holding people accountable. Virtually every hero out there has directly or indirectly caused the death of people through the course of their "career". At least this would provide legitimacy to their work.
    Same here...though I think we were shouting different things. ;)

  6. Obi_Will_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2004
    star 2
    I don't know, guys, please don't flame me (this is of course, my own opinion- im not trying to discredit all of yours).

    It seems that they are taking Spidey back to his 'underdog' roots. Let me explain...

    All through the years, the main driving focus of Pete's crime fighting has always been wanting to make the world better, to make his loved ones proud...or whatever. It has NEVER been for a selfish, inwardly type of gain. He's a good guy.

    Pure and simple.

    And, linked with this is the question- 'What would happen to Pete's loved ones if his secret identity were revealed?' This has been a constant in most spidey stories ever since the beginning. Pete is always worrying about his elderly aunt, MJ, Harry...if this happened. And so has the reader....they assume, like peter, that all of his enemies will hound him down and kill him (and the ones he cares about) in a matter of time. And, sure, we've had all the 'What If's' and they have revealed what peter and the reader have come to ultimately assume...enemies and the police hunt spidey down.

    In recent stories however, as Peter has grown older and more experienced, he has (albeit to a less extent) become quite complacent- well, more carefree to use a better word than in his teen years. He has become more relaxed and comfortable in his role. I mean, now he has a new costume (essentially a one man army), the protection of the Avengers (for both his Aunt and Wife) new powers, he even had Ezekiel as an added protection. Although the essence of spider-man remains the 'same' (i.e- his worrying), we have definetly seen a change in Mr. Parker (mostly down the the writers).

    This new dev. in the chance of MAKING spider-man reveal what he wanted to conceal from the world a few years (in comic book terms) prior...well, I can't possibly do it justice. But this new hidden strength of peter to actually put his loved ones in danger for, not a selfish, inward gain, but for the good of the super powered community ( i assume)- well, i think it will make me want to read future spider titles. Now, it makes peter what he essentially was in Amazing Fantasy 15- the underdog superhero.

    It just goes to show you that to make a well loved character loved again, you do not need the added bonus of new powers, totem pole hocus pocus, or a new suit to make the man. All you need is the core essence of the hero to be revealed again. For spidey, that essence of what makes him a hero is that he's up against the world who hate him- and he never gives up.

    Wow, this is the longest post I have written in my life. I hope my words have allowed you all to see it from my view. Marvel aren't destroying a character. They are bringing him back to his roots...but in an entirely new way.

    Thank You.

  7. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was in Frontline that Tony outted himself. So from what I gather, the central story of 'Civil War' can be found in all the books that are titled Civil War: _____.

    The exact quote is "My name is Peter Parker, and I have been Spider-Man since I was fifteen years old" so it has not completely established his age as of Civil War. As much as I'd like it for companies to do so and thus have to actually move on with characters, it only happens when the story dictates the need (eg Kitty now being in her early 20's).

    That said the lower panel on the second-to-last page was priceless. I'm hoping that that kind of acknowledgement to the smaller, more human details will remain in the whole of it, and show that this is more than just a catch-up stunt after the success of Crisis for DC.
  8. NJOfan215 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 5
    I didn't properly explain my point about cap. One of the major things that stark's faction is trying to use to promote their stance on registration is that the heroes will now be paid and have goverment support. Cap allready has this, and he's leading the resistance to the registration act. Basicly he's saying the "benefits" aren't worth it.
  9. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Lets give that with unregistard heroes incidents like Stamford are more likely to happen. But then lets look at how man villians acts were done without hero provacation. Then look at how many more would be dead without heroes running around.

    "But with the SHR Act then they could do all that. but be monitored and assured of public safety."

    But then that would give the US government, and more directly SHIELD access to a superhuman weapons arsenal. I know they already have their own Superagents, but every single hero at their disposal. And this is not Nick Fury's SHIELD that answered the world more then anyone government. At this point SHIELD is little more then a US agency, headed by an especially bitchy head. They are using slave mining in the savage lands, and you want them to have control of all superheros?

    And then with them being under US govs control what are they do when a different country needs help but the US says no? The government didn't do a damn thing during the Genosha massacre, and more to the point whats stopping the use of registared heroes as PMDs? The Sentry can level entire nations all by himself. And if they refuse they could be publically outted or placed in custedy.

  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I hadn't gotten the issue, so I misquoted the book. Anyway, reading Joe Fridays on Newsarama, they've pretty much indicated that MJ will probably be on the chopping block. When asked if this could lead to his being a widower, Joe Q only indicated that it could happen. Yeah, I can see why they went for this. Even though ten years ago, Marvel got cold feet about killing MJ with the Clone Saga.
  11. Lonestar52 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2005
    I've never gotten 616-Cap. If he signed anything like the paperwork I did when I joined the Navy(when he joined the Army) I'd wager he should have been court-martialed half a dozen times. :confused:

    Personally, If I were the government, I would appoint a new Cap. [face_idea]
  12. Lonestar52 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2005
    I'm not arguing that heroes haven't saved lives, I'm arguing they would have saved more if they had been trained up and dully appointed officers of the law.

    No. But then, part of an American Serviceman's oath of enlistment says something about upholding the Constitution, and obeying lawful orders. I would insert a similiar mechanism.

    Uh..didn't the Massacre happen over the course of...minutes? Not even the United States can react to a crisis off the coast of Africa with a warning of minutes. (And weren't there resuce workers in the aftermath anyway?)

    We don't know the specifics of the SHR. Remember how it took FEMA so long to respond to New Orleans? It was because Federal law prevent the government to send in troops unless an official request was made by the locality, even while the city has underwater the Nat'l Guard was waiting for an Official, "Legal" request. There may be a similiar clause in the SHR. [face_whistling]
  13. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    But as you explain later in your post they would be under government regulations. What if the government decides that it isn't prudent to intervene a disaster, or that they have to focus on defense rather then going after the problem?

    But thats not what the act is doing. The act is making all superheroes SHIELD agents. And the organization is being run by someone who was selected on the sole basis that they were the complete opposite of Fury and would be a US yes man at every turn.

    And what is stopping the US from over reaching it's boundries and using it's heroes to impose it's will? Will clauses and regulations stop Iron Man from crippling a nations infistructure? Will it stop the Avengers from taking out an entire army? Will it stop them from using Spider-Man to work out more favorable trade agreements?

    And what happens when a hero is forced to do something they find questionable? If they resist and have to be brought down, how much damage will be caused by something that could hve been avoided?
  14. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    CIVIL WAR: SPIDERMAN #2 SPOILER Spider-Man reveals to the world he is Peter Parker!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
  15. Jedi_Johnson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 5
    Old news man.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Uh, it was the Joker and not the Riddler. The only thing Riddler did of any major significance was find out that Batman was Bruce Wayne. Joker crippled Barbara, along with killing Jason Todd and Sarah Essen. Also, Jim doesn't hate Batman from that. Not at all. He hated Joker which was highlighted in the "Eclipso: The Darkness Within" crossover. Jim and Batman's relationship took a nosedive because Sarah got him to question whether Batman should be sanctioned in Gotham. Then Bruce letting Jean Paul Valley step in as Batman made things worse. That was patched up during "Contagin" only to fall apart at the start of "No Man's Land". Jim was angry at Batman for disappearing and then for what happened with Sarah. But they've since patched it up as seen in "Officer Down", "Hush" and "Face To Face".
  17. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    Plus, the Joker knows nothing about the Bat-family's real identities. He went to the Gordon's to do damage to Gordon, and shooting his daughter had a better effect than shooting Gordon himself.
  18. Talon_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2003
    star 4
    Back to the Civil War... It seems that, although it is Captain America vs Iron Man, that Spiderman in fact will be the one to decide the winner of this thing. In many of the cover of comics now and to come it shows Spidey on either side, split, one with the heros even pulling Spiderman apart. Also Spiderman is the one now most affected by this. I just recently read he is being sued by JJJ for all the money he made off of Spiderman photos and they are no longer friends. We still don't know what the Supervillians will do.

    So in the end why do you think they choose spiderman for this. He isn't the most powerful of super-heros. He doesn't have the most influence in the World, mostly NY based. Plus before this very few knew who he was. Are the writer going to use Spiderman as a punching bag to show why the regislation is a bad idea, or as an eye opener to why this should happen and that it will exceed. I also feel Daredevil (the real one) and his relationship to Spidey will come into play
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Spidey's been chosen, according to the writers, because he is the everyman. He may not have the pull that Reed, Cap or Tony does, but he does have a lot of visibility. He's worked with just about everyone on a regular basis. And said heroes have heard his spew about power and responsibility being his motivation for wearing the tights. He's saved the day several times. From "Acts Of Vengeance" to "Infinity Crusade". He's never killed any criminal and is the first to stand up against it, if someone says that a villian should be killed by a hero. Recently, he's joined the Avengers which is a big deal as he's never been able to do that before. Those that already know that he is Peter Parker know that he is risking a lot by unmasking, because he has a wife and an aunt, as well as friends in his private life. And as been revealed by the creative teams on all three Spidey books, he's going to be affected the most by his unmasking.
  20. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    What did MJ have to say about it? What happens to his family when some supervillain decides to get his revenge? Revealing his identity was a foolhardy thing to do.
  21. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    MJ and Aunt May were the ones to convince him to do it. He was going to go into hiding with all the money he had in a seperate account. MJ and May talked him out of that.

    ~*!~-~DOCTOR BEAR~-~!*~
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hence MJ will probably die. You know Marvel wants the marriage undone.
  23. Jedi_Johnson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 5
    So does Joe Quesada. YOu should check out the Joe Friday articles on Newsarama.com. He had quite the statement about married Spidey and why its a bad thing.
  24. BartSimpson-SithLord Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 5
    Joe Q. has said that he won't kill MJ off also. He said "A widowed Spidey is worse than a married Spidey."

    So it's best to listen to Joe Q. how one would listen to the heads of Microsoft and Sony during E3:

    "Blah blah blah blah blah Money money money money blah blah blah blah SHAKE THINGS UP blah blah blah blah blah."

    ~*!~-~DOCTOR BEAR~-~!*~
  25. Jedi_Johnson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 5
    Agreed for the most part. I just seems a little too convenient that Joe Q keeps talking about how the MJ and Peter marriage should never have happened and now we have an easy way to get rid of her and give Civil War a lasting input. I hope it doesn't happen personally. I think its more likely they kill off Aunt May (again). Poor Jarvis. [face_worried]
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