Lit Comics Marvel Star Wars: General News & Trades Discussion Thread

Noto's run on Poe Dameron finished with #13 - it's been Angel Unzueta since #14.

 

Just curious, what of our complaints do you think was to far? I did not mean to come off as rude about Larroca since i do enjoy his work, but I think the problems with it are actual issues that should be addressed since they pertain in many ways to what is killing Marvel (rushing out far to many books at once to a point of over saturating and forcing creators to do far more in less time which hurts the work). I don't think anyone used hyperbole or went excessive, he is just an artist that many of us think has some major issues that have not changed. I mean it's not like anyone said he is Liefield or post 90s Miller.

 

Yeah, I certainly want to see Noto on more Star Wars comics, if not on the Poe series again, then another series.

 

I would love to see Noto tackle a Maul mini. Maybe one that takes place during Mauls actual training?


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I would love to see Noto tackle a Maul mini. Maybe one that takes place during Mauls actual training?


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Noto could do "Watto: A Life" and it would be fantastic.

 

To each their own regarding "tracing," I guess. I've seen that "Luke's faces" illustration more times than I can count, and I have yet to see the problem with it. Luke looks like Luke. (Try saying that five times fast.) It just doesn't distract me as much as it does some, I suppose.

 

I just want more by Mark Brooks, the artwork in the Han Solo miniseries is superb.

 

Maybe they were your work, maybe not, but the images used pretty much took it to overload for me. It's one thing to say you don't like an artist's output for reasons A, B, C and whatever but then going through a load of issues you've read - and supposedly enjoyed - to assemble a collection of similar images in order to prove said artist is crap says to me there's been a loss of perspective somewhere.

(That and if it's so horrendous, why buy lots of issues of it? If you've bought just SW alone, that's over 30 issues of art by Larocca, whose art you clearly don't like, but will stomach to buy the issues, which in turn says to Marvel: This guy sells.)

I'd agree DC are been much smarter in how they use artists, especially since Rebirth, but they've also made public statements of intent to support while Marvel went and slagged their artists off as being unimportant - so, if you're a Marvel artist, that's little incentive to do excellent work - just do the job, send off the goods, go home. DC are paying better page rates and reaping the benefits.

One point I am curious about - was this the discussion you referred to? As I'd agree it is quite a worthwhile read:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sh...a-(Iron-man-artist)-caught-in-blatant-tracing

 

It is highly unlikely the user who posted those images went through the effort to create them. The picture of The Thing was posted here over 4 years ago. I thought those images were a strong piece of evidence to support their opinion and if all the effort it took to get them was a quick google, I don't believe anyone here has gone overboard. Now here is a guy who went too far, though I do find these posts entertaining to scroll through.

 

I really wish they'd bring in some Dark Horse artists, like Jan Duursema or Doug Wheatley.
Of the artists who have worked on SW for Marvel so far my favorites have been Immonen on the second arc of SW, and Larraz, who drew the Kanan series. The Darth Maul guy was good too.
I'm also not a big fan of Larroca.. I feel like I recognize every closeup as a scene from the a movie, and his non-traced stuff just isn't great. He's definitely serviceable, but I just never feel impressed by his stuff.

 

That helps a bit, though the sheer amount of talk around this point and Larroca, even he and Land are far from the only perps, is mystifying to me. If it's so horrendous why doesn't everyone put their money where their mouth is?

The last link you posted is funny for the bit where it says 'not intended as an attack', huh? Really? Then what the hell is it? Because it certainly ain't love 'n' kisses.

 

Agree 1000000%.

 

Personally, I have bought every issue, and every trade paperback. I never read Star Wars comics before the reboot (besides Knights of the Old Republic).

When there reboot was announced. I purchased all of the Dark Horse Omnibuses. I still have only read about 5 of them.

I thought that the reset would be a good place to be in the know with Star Wars, and I wanted to know the story of what the larger mythos was.

I honestly didn't mind Larroca on Darth Vader. I never liked the way he drew Cylo, the Emperor, or the twins, but aliens, droids and Vader himself were pretty good.

But when he started doing the Yoda's secret War arc, I was a little disappointed with the art. Then Screaming Citadel hit a nerve with me. Now having him on the main art for Star Wars is going to be rough because I don't like the way he draws the big 3...and that is what the series is going to focus on.

So yes, I am disappointed that he is being put on the main title that will primarily focus on human faces. If it wasn't a monthly book, I bet he could do a pretty good job on the art. But between the colorist and his art in Screaming Citadel, I was just upset with what I was getting for my money.

Like I said in previous posts, I will give him another shot. But I also reserve the right to critique what I purchase. And because I can't send a message with my wallet, I will send it with my keystrokes. I know that Marvel lurks on these boards.


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Nah I just used collages someone else made. To be fair the massive ones where of Land not Larroca and I will say outright I have no respect for Land. larroca is a talented guy so I get annoyed with his tracing cause I know he looks great without it so I wish he would just be a little late rather than tracing. Land however is a hack comparatively.

As for reading the issues. I don't dislike his art I just get frustrated at his tracing and some of the stuff in SC. Also I never said it was horrendous or anything of the like (who is using hyperbole now ). As for buying issue if you don't like the art, personally I can buy comics if I dislike the art, I will complain about the art if I dislike it still but it will not ruin a story for me. That does not mean I ignore it though cause criticism is needed for improvement. I bought Land's IM he did with Gillan and actually just re read it on sunday. I still enjoyed it mostly (Gillan has some plotting issues but I digress) despite the bad art, however the art very much took me out of it and made me enjoy it less than I would otherwise. I won't refuse to read something just cause the art is bad as long as the story is good enough. Like I hate Land's art but stomached it cause I got it in trade (and vols 2-5 for $25 at a con which was amazing) and I collect IM.

Now I do really agree that it is strange when people get vehement about disliking someone and yet still buy their stuff, but again if they like the character or writer enough they might try to power through. Or the book could be important. Again I don't find Larroca horrendous but even if I did I would still buy Vader cause I loved that book and that character. Funnily enough my Barrows example with det is the opposite, I love his art and yet I HATE Tynion's writing on that book and I get personally offended by how much it cheaply panders to my tastes despite being very weak (the larger offense is that I wanted Tynion on that book cause I liked him in other places and even fought people who said he sucked previously, that and he is such a nice guy and has similar tastes to me so I want to like his stuff but it just does not work). So I refuse to buy that book despite it being about some of my favorite characters in all of fiction and doing stories I want to see (Batman/Zatanna).

So yeah I am particular with whether or not I buy something with someone I dislike. Normally I give them a chance and if the book is terrible I leave (so IM by Gillan is not terrible hence why I power through while Tynion det is so I left).

The discussion I was talking about was an episode of IFanboy that was a really layered talk of photo-tracing

But yeah hope I explained my view on that well.

Once again, I think it is case by case. Larroca is not horrendous just flawed, and stuff like Vader or Fraction IM is AMAZING. I am not gonna refuse to read good stories about character i love just cause the artist frustrated me. it is unfair to act like people need to not buy anything that person is on or they are crazy. You do get that people have a multitude of reasons they may by a comic? Again I collect Iron Man so of course I will buy IM even if I don't love the art, cause it is a character I love and a writer I love. I will never understand this notion that someone is crazy or not "putting their money where their mouth is" just cause they still buy books that include the work of people they are not fans of. Like that is really unfair, I can buy a book with an artist I don't like and still complain about the artist. This whole idea of putting your money where your mouth is comes of like a way of ignoring the issue, like just don't read it if you don't like one element ever. If I like Gillan's IM and hate the art it is perfectly fine for me to buy those issues and yet still say "hey this art is trash and Land should not be in the industry". I am not gonna stop buying books I am interested in just cause of that. I will if the people actually offend me like say Miller's holy terror or asbar.

This whole thing comes off like an excuse for bad quality, the "if you don't like it then don't buy it" excuse is always cheap. The sales wont dip much if I stop reading IM when the art is bad and I will then miss out on good stories. People can buy books with elements they know they might complain about and it is not crazy, if I give Land a chance cause I want to read IM and he is still tracing porn then that is not my fault more trusting the comic might be better, it is his fault for being a hack.

Again I got Gillan's IM and enjoyed it, I will complain about Land being a hack and will give kudos to Gillan for his work. I will enjoy Vader for Gillan and be taken out a bit by Larroca. It is not at all strange for people to still buy books even if they have stuff they don't like. In fact it is good, it helps people voice their criticisms. If I never read Land then someone can say "well if you dont see his stuff how can you say he is bad", but since I have read Land then I can easily say why I dislike him with proof.

That and people can spend their money on whatever they want, if I decide to buy Vader despite not loving Larroca their is nothing strange about that, I enjoy the comic despite its flaws, I cannot know unless I read it and that is not even getting into the massive point of works being a combination of good and bad and the consumer deciding what outweighs what.

Like if people either suck it up and never complain cause well they bought the comic or refuse to ever buy something just cause one element then you are essentially limiting their ability to have more complex views. I don't like Loeb often and yet I will read some of his stuff. Hush sucks but what should I "put my money where my mouth is" and NEVER read Long Halloween? No I should read it cause people change story to story. You cannot form a full opinion without sampling not to mention that again certain stories appeal to people differently. I loath Hush and yet love Loeb's early Batman stuff. That there is proof that people's libraries of work are layered and just saying to either read it and except it or never read it at all is an over simplification of criticism.

You put my point so much better than me dude. yeah sometimes the best we can do is give people another chance and if they fail in our minds then we will say "hey this was flawed for this reason and this reason". If someone's work is so bad that they don't deserve your money like say Liefield, just ignoring it does nothing but actually sampling and then saying "hey this is terrible" is a far better way to critique him.

i think Linkara makes a perfect point in his One More Day review

I copied it at the right time but if that does not work here is the quote

"Look I hate One More Day, that should be clear by now, but what irritates me about it the most is the complete rejection of effort. If they had just stopped and thought about how some of this stuff could have been handled, we could have had a much better story. Hell even the deal with the devil COULD have been made to work. I said how it could have been made to work. This is not me contemplating long and hard over it, these are things they should have thought of themselves. instead they took the easy route. Sometimes life hands you difficult problems and people feel the need to take the easy way out of them, I don't seriously want OMD ignored, THAT'S the easy way out, I want a solution (I am skipping this middle part cause it pertains more to that story)

Everyone who buys a comic, a movie, a game they're critics. The phrase "everybody's a critic" is used to try to brush off criticism, but it's the truth. We all hold an opinion about something. Customers are critics cause it's our money to spend and our voice to be heard, we speak out not for its own sake but for the hope that the next thing that comes along is better. And that's what I want in the end, what we all want."

And another Linkara quote
"To know why something is good you must first know why something is bad"

 

I thought the Yoda arc and the most recent Luke and Leia one-shot were very good, and I never quibbled about his work on Darth Vader. Only Screaming Citadel has been a bit of a stumble.

Also important to note Larroca is working with a different writer on his "Star Wars" issues. So far.

Gillen has written a LOT of comics with this guy as the artist, I think he knows how to play to his strengths.

 

vncredleader

Thanks for that post. Maybe 'horrendous' isn't the right term, but the announcement's a couple of days old and the last 4-5 pages of this thread has been about the artist assigned, so it's fair to say people clearly feel strongly about it.

The problem is companies don't tend to recognise consumer reservations about buying their products, simply that they do - I've walked that road where you buy despite X, Y, Z - see NJO and Dark Nest before I bailed on LOTF at Betrayal. It's a very beguiling mentality that's easy to talk yourself into.

 

I have hope that the Marvel editors that read these forums will take our well intended and constructive criticism into account. Because if they only cared whether a comic sells or not, then why bother reading and posting here? They can just look at their monthly statistics and not waste more time. I have hope.

 

If I had a nickle for every time I hear someone say that sentence or something like it.

And you know what they say about hope.

 

The Yoda secret war was awful

 

You know...I've was thinking big picture with the Star Wars comics, and in general, I'm feeling underwhelmed. And I was hugely impressed for at least the first year or so.

But more recently I read them mostly out of a completest sense to read all the stories. There are some great moments and story ars, particularly in the Vader book, but a lot of times, I'm not excited for the next issue or what will happen next.

I have very little ****s to give about the tracing issue, by the way. I want good story.

I also think they are saturating the market with too many books...as Marvel tends to do. Quantity not quality.

This is not a defense of Dark Horse. DH had its moments, but so much mediocre to just plain bad. And they really struggled to figure what to do with SW, it seemed to me, after they ended their ongoings in 2010. KOTOR and Legacy were among my favorite ongoing books of all time...not just Star Wars.

Anyway...I want to be excited about new SW stories. All of them. Every issue. I want that Game of Thrones feeling of...oh, ****....what happens next? What does it all mean. I can't stop thinking about it until the next issue...and so forth.

I feel that way certainly about TLJ. And even the latest Rebels seasons. Some of the books are really great. And yes...the comics can on occasion elicit a semblance of that. But not often enough. I have tons of NEU issues already I plan to get to eventually... begrudgingly. But I'm not really...looking forward to them. Hopefully some will surprise me for the better.

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I have a feeling that those kind of stories will be reserved for movies and TV (and maaaaybe video games). I'm afraid that the novels and comics won't deal with galaxy defining events anymore. Of course, I may be wrong.

 

I am not at all advocating for Galaxy defining events. Just good, engaging story.

I am not at all on the stories need to be huge in scope to be good. Lots of excellent examples of really great smaller scale stories I love.

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Well that is true that they likely do care about consumer feedback and that likely is why they look at these threads from time to time. At the same time though there are some things you also need to take into consideration. Even though there has been a lot of feedback in this thread it has still only been about four or five different individuals being negative about it. Now I am sure that there are other people out there who feel the same way you guys do but the fact that you don't see places being bombarded with negative feedback and the books are still selling as well as they are (even the poorest selling series are still top 100 material) indicates that there are probably many more people out there happy with what they have been doing than there are those that are unhappy. If 90% of their consumer base is satisfied with their product and only 10% is unsatisfied they aren't going to change things around much for that 10%. In that type of situation the best you could probably hope for is putting one series out there that concentrates more on getting the best possible art out there that they can and less on getting lots of issues out there to keep people up and invested in the storyline.

Star Wars isn't an original comic franchise so that means that it is likely to bring in a lot of people who aren't normally that big into comics and Star Wars might be the only thing they get at the comic stores. Those people are going to be reading these series more for the story than they are for the art. If they began slowing down the release dates and made it more challenging to get invested in the story they likely would lose a portion of those people.

The art in these books isn't by any means bad at all. No it might not be the best it could possibly be because they are often releasing two issues a month. On the trade off though they have likely gotten as much story out there in two and a half years as Darkhorse did in about five or six years. And there quick release schedule obviously isn't turning too many people off as in the last monthly sales chart (over two years in to Marvel's new run) five of their eight books for the month landed in the top 30.