Mass Effect 1,2 & 3 -- Action (RPGs?) made by BioWare (ME3 Spoilers Hidden!)

Discussion in 'Games' started by Lord-Draco, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. Darth_Furio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2008
    star 7
    Considering the Reapers are going to attack Earth I'm really going to be interested in seeing Ashley evolve as a character when the aliens come and help out. Or conversly if the aliens don't. Either way I agree Wrex was the best companion in ME1.
  2. Jedi_Johnson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 5
    Wrex was my favorite. Mostly because he was a tank and could take tons of damage. I generally used Shepard, Wrex, and Kaiden/Ashley/Tali. They rotated out based on my needs. With Vanguard Shepard I was generally pretty well off with my team.
  3. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I don't know if we played the same game or how much you talked to Ash, but her conversations revealed more than just a slight distrust of aliens, even those serving with them on the Normandy and, IMO, meant to make her sympathetic with those playing Shepard as a human supremacist Renegade jerk. Hell, even on their reunion in Horizon she pretty much said it out loud: "I'm no fan of aliens ". That's racism, not mere nationalism. And as far as I'm concerned, racists can go hang (her damn attitude on Horizon didn't help her case either, regardless of her wishy-washy email apology later). So yeah, my Sheps would much rather be with Liara, Jack, or even Tali than swap spit with stuck-up bigot Ash Williams.
  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    The encounter on Horizon is pretty infuriating, I just wanted a Renegade interrupt to allow me to punch Kaidan/Ashley in the mouth.

    Tali for the romantic win.
  5. Darth_Furio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2008
    star 7
    [face_laugh]
  6. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    QFT,FTW!! [face_laugh]
  7. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6

    A few of Liara's lines in ME were horribly written and almost as badly delivered. Still, she was better than Ashley in that she wasn't a xenophobic racist, so I hooked up with her on most games.

    In ME2, Liara grows up. Liara as she is in ME2 and LOTSB is pretty much my favorite ME NPC, even passing Wrex. Also, she goes from being the worst written character in the game to being the best written.
  8. Darth_Furio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2008
    star 7
    LOTSB was a great add-on. Awesome. You're right about Liara too she was well done. I love it during the sky car chase when she says "You're enjoying this aren't you?" Good stuff.
  9. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    If I was a soldier I wouldn't trust members of another nation, especially one we were at war with a few years ago having free range on the most advanced ship in my countries fleet. That's not racism, that's common sense. I disagreed with Ashley because I felt I could trust Wrex and Garrus, but I expect someone to bring up the fact I've made a massive breach of security. And her cold attitude to Turians isn't that she hate's their species, it's because their nation attacked Earth and ruined her grandfathers reputation. Heck a lot of people in the USA are still distrustful of the Russians. And I don't interpret her "I'm no fan of aliens" as a racist comment. Why is she uncomfortable around aliens? Because their members of another nation. The Salarian Union, Turian Hierarchy, Batarian Hegemony, Human Systems Alliance. If every alien species is their own nation then any showing of nationalism, patriotism, or simple minding of national security would equal racism. That would mean that EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY IS A RACIST!

    And her attitude on Horizon was what I would expect. When her former commander appears from the dead as a member of a renowned terrorist organization. One of which she fought alongside said commander and her commander appears saying "Hey nice to see you, why don't you come with me, turns out these guys are great!" If Ashley had joined me there I'd be disappointed. Ashely's whole character is one absolutely loyal to the Alliance, even over Shepard.

    Ashley is a good and loyal soldier for the Alliance. She played the voice of caution to my paragon Shepard. I respect and admire that. She's not afraid to let me know when she thinks I'm putting the Alliance at risk. She puts her loyalty to the Alliance over me. That is why I like Ashley the best.
  10. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah, Ashley isn't racist. Paranoid maybe, but not quite racist. I just loaded up an old save and ran into the xenophobic political candidate guy on the Citadel that I somehow missed before, and Ashley basically tells him to S.T.F.U. and that he's looking to start a fight. If you want racist, take a look at the Illusive Man.
  11. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I wouldn't say she's paranoid. I mean if you were a soldier on board the most advanced ship in the United States military and your commander allows an Interpol agent who was a member of the Russian military full access to the ship I'd expect you'd be a bit worried. Ashley only had concerns about Garrus and Wrex because they were both part of a potential enemy to the Alliance. She didn't have any issue with Tali on board, and Liara was only due to her ties with Benezia.

    The Illusive Man I'd say is more of an extreme nationalist then a racist. He thinks humans are the best and will always put their interests first but I haven't seen anything that shows me that he hates aliens as a species.

    The problem with Mass Effect is that it blurs racism and nationalism. Since every species is it's own nation supporting your own or thinking your own is the best can easily be called racism. Putting the Human Systems Alliance first and putting their interests first, and not trusting the Turian Hierarchy or the Salarian Union does not make one a racist.
  12. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6

    I'd agree, except for her conversation where she compares her feelings towards aliens to her feelings towards animals. You might love the family dog, but at the end of the day if there's a choice between saving the family dog or saving a human, you save the human. Or something along those lines.
  13. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    I recall that comment....and I recall as well that upon talking with Ash about Liara and Benezia, she somewhat felt pity for Liara because of the way she had lost her mother. So she could be hard, she could be compassionate, she could be very stubborn and her nationalistic views might be construed as paranoia or even racism due to that huge chip on her shoulder regarding her grandfather. But the argument can be made that resentment for old injuries done to you -- or those close to you -- by members of another ethnic group/nation (or in this case, alien species) can, over time, degenerate into outright fear and hatred towards members of that nation/species.

    So let's just say that Ash is an extremely conflicted and complicated figure and that it can be difficult to get a handle on her. I guess the baggage and drama was simply a turn-off for me and unfortunately she just wouldn't get any love from my Sheps.

    As for Horizon, I'll have to concur with a poster elsewhere that stated that the Kaidan/Ash reunions were very poorly written. The point of the dialogue tree was solely for Shepard to be attacked by his/her former paramour due to his new relationship with Cerberus and for you the player to decide if, whether you were sufficiently pissed about the outcome of that encounter, to resume the relationship or close the doors on it forever, regardless of the apologetic email later. So I was pissed by the whole thing, and pretty much decided both Ash and Kaidan should go to hell. Thanks Bioware, your little plot device worked like a charm.
  14. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Meh, never really cared much for Ashley myself. Liara was ok, less annoying, but I wish Tali had been a romantic choice in the first ME. Fortunately they fixed that problem by the second one.

    Yeah, it sucked how little some of the ME1 crew got to do. Tali, Garrus and Liara all got decent amount of screentime, Garrus' entrance was very cool (singlehandedly holding off all of Omega's merc gangs), Tali's just always awesome, and Liara got her own DLC package. But then there weren't any big life or death choices about them in ME1, so they were all safe. Kaidan/Ashley, whoever didn't die on Virmire, had, what, 100 lines at most? And that was it. And if for some insane reason you killed Wrex, not much changes, you just have another random krogan in charge on the krogan homeworld. Given that most or all of your crew can die during the suicide mission of ME2, I just hope that doesn't mean they won't bother writing too much for them in ME3, that'd be really annoying.

    Hm, don't remember that dog conversation from the first game, although it reminds me of a moment from the second game when talking to Kelly, and asking her doesn't loving aliens clash with Cerberus' human-supremacy agenda, and she compared it to her sister opening a dog shelter but liking cats too... which then left me wondering how non-humans compared to dogs or cats from her POV.

    Hm, the Illusive Man might be racist, he's definitely nationalistic, but mostly it just comes down to him wanting to rule the galaxy (human supremacy, but according to him Cerberus is humanity, and guess who would be leading then...). Though really in the end it just comes down to Cerberus being amoral and human or not, they'll do anything to anyone to get more power.

    Although that's just part of what I didn't like about ME2's storyline, with how you're stuck working for Cerberus, as they provide everything (including your second lease on life), while everybody else is either ignoring your warnings about the Reapers or shooting at you. Hope not too much of ME3 is wasted on that kind of ignorance. Looking forward to the finale ME2 DLC, I'm so happy they kept up a steady stream since ME2 came out, it really helped pass the time between ME2 and ME3. Oh, less than a year to go (assuming they make their holiday 2011 deadline).

    I'm just worried/curious how many discs it'll be, after all the choices you've made throughout ME1 and ME2. Like whether being nice to the rachni will have a big effect or not, or whether the Council will actually matter again.
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Trawled my way through Overlord today, including the irritating Geth cannon bit.

    Oh and had 5 of 6 data packs, forgot to pick up the 6th one, thought I'd be able to pick it up on the way out. WRONG! Area's sealed off - can't go back. I hate that aspect of Bioware design stuff, really cramps whatever freedom you've got because you have to get everything first time off.

    That aside, Overlord was quite good, didn't care for the final boss bit though.
  16. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I'd agree with you. And I like complicated people, I like it when they have layers. Like onions.:p

    And I'd agree with you that the Horizon dialogue could have been better. A renegade response could have been full on "CERBREUS IS THE GREATEST EVER!" but a paragon should have been able to have been construed by your teamates as potentially brainwashed or crazy. They easily could have made Shepard seem to be crazy talking about Reapers and Collectors and how only Cerberus can do anything. But that would give problems of it's own.

    I just wish you could have been able to make it clear to them that you didn't just forget about them for 2 years, I WAS DEAD FOR TWO YEARS. Ashley seemed to think I was just hanging out with Cerberus for 2 years chilling. Of course Shepard didn't help matters with only his "It's been to long." unless he was going for comic understatement.
  17. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    I've had my share of complicated people: simply put, too much frakkin' drama! And I'm not crazy about onions; lousy aftertaste that'll last you the better part of two days even with industrial quality mouthwash.
  18. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Onions are great, especially on tuna heros with sweetunion sauce, Playing mostly biotic characters in ME1 so I rearly used Liara. As needed Tali or Garuss tech for opening locks, and rex or Ashly to man the front lines. I ronaced ash twice and Liara once.

    Tali is a great character but, I never thought of her "That way"
  19. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I can see no one picked up on my Shrek joke. :p
  20. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    And I don't interpret her "I'm no fan of aliens" as a racist comment.

    I'm quite sure if someone said "I'm not fan of blacks" it'd be considered a racist comment. I don't know whether Ashley really thinks humans are superior to aliens, but she's functionally racist.
  21. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    I knew I had heard the onion thing before, put couldn't quite put my finger where exactly. :p
  22. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    Ashley dose not believe Aliens will put human needs above their own. And humans can not afford to put alien needs above their own.

    Ashley isn't anymore racist than renegade shepard.

    She compared Human/alien relationship to a hunter and beloved hunting dog being confronted by a bear. You love the dog, but he isn't human. If your only option is to sic it on the bear to buy you time to run, you sic it on the bear.

    Her point is that aliens will not put their needs above humans. Even Mordin in Mass effect 2 says you shouldn't make assuptions on KROGAN reactions using human psyhcology.

    After all Krogan's are not humans, Most aliens have hugely differntiating lifespans, biochemistery, and out looks.

    The Rachnii have pledged their suppport to you, there is no garuntee the other aliens will. Or that even the rachnii will be able to help.

    Huh, i got off track. But the gist of it is, Humans should put human intrests first.


  23. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    If she was talking about them as a species you'd be right but her comment to me at least seemed to be more. "I'm no fan of other nations." She doesn't trust the Salarian Union, Turian Hierarchy, ect... It's more of a heightened nationalism bordering on xenophobia.

    She loves the Alliance and doesn't trust anyone whose not in the Alliance.

    And her comment about a hunter and a dog isn't racist either. We do it in war all the time. When we are faced with a terrible battle how many times do humans send their allies into it instead. It's not because of their race, it's because their not us.
  24. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    Do you realize what you're saying? How utterly wrong that sounds? From "they're not us" you can jump to "because they're not better than us"to "We're superior to them". A supremacist statement if I ever heard one. And, oh yes, what word lies within supremacist? Why, "Racist" of course!

    Why are you so determined to NOT see that while it may not appear that way at first glance and that -- if she were a real person -- she would not realize or admit it to herself, Ash is a dyed-in-the-wool xenophobe.
  25. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    why... is everyone assuming that there's even that much thought actually put into the character? just curious. last i heard this is a videogame character, and the only thing that really is confirmed on her is what she said... NOT what she might have said, and not how it can be taken farther/further (never can keep those two straight). seriously, this is just ridiculous.