VIDEO Mass Effect Series (New Game Announced!)

Discussion in 'Games' started by Valyn, Sep 7, 2012.

  1. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    On the bright side, I loved Joker's comment afterward: "First time I ever heard of anyone stopping a war just by yelling."

    Oh! Oh! And then there was the hilarious talk I had with Kaidan and Jimmy in the card room on the Observation Deck. Sort of went like this:
    Kaidan: Totally killed a Reaper.
    Shepard: Yep. Totally did.

    (I kept envisioning Shepard with this smug, "i iz a player, aight" grin on his face when he gave that line. ROFLMAO.)
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 23, 2013
  2. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    On the downside, as a final thought: picked up a set of Hahne-Kedar Shoulder Greaves ... which have promptly disappeared, I can't find them when I try to equip up armour. Bug, I hope :(
  3. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    I feel the Rannoch missions are a bit of a slowdown too - although I think the reason is that a) it does feel like a diversion from the main fight, and b) there's so much damn talking in that arc. I love plot and character development, but given that I've been through that arc 11 times now it does get a little taxing. I wouldn't bother with the Revenant; sure it's lighter but it's even less accurate than the Typhoon. For the Geth dreadnought at least I find a scoped weapon and a shotgun are good choices. Thessia will have a few chances to crack out the Typhoon, but the funny bit is the two Banshees you encounter both have convenient Hydra pickups nearby - wish they could have gotten Shep yelling "Say hello to my little friend!"

    All three of the endings have problems, but frankly I tend to pick Destroy about 50% of the time because it comes down to a calculation - what's worse? Killing EDI and the Geth, leaving the Reapers and their abominations intact under the control of a ShepAI, or altering every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy without their consent (which also leaves the Reapers and their abominations intact)? Personally, I figure the risk of leaving the Reapers intact is too high.

    Oh yeah, combo detonations are one of my favorite ME3 aspects. Fire is impressive, and then biotic detonations are like having a freaking nuke cannon handy - I swear when my adept uses Flare as a detonator you get a shock wave around the blast zone :D The upshot is they do the same proportional damage to a target regardless of difficulty level, so a combo blast will knock a heavy down just as hard on Insanity as Casual.
  4. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Without turning it into yet another ending rant ... I think you might have just hit the nail on the head for why it's so depressing: there is no real "best" option in the ending, you can only pick what's the "least worst" one for you personally.

    It's sort of like the choice Scarecrow offers Gordon in Dark Knight Rises: "Death, or exile?" "We're not walking out on the ice!" "Death, then: by exile!"

    Problem is, that choice comes after 3-odd games where you've racked up victory after victory against an opponent that's said to be "conventionally unbeatable", where the most advanced species in the galaxy (the asari) call you a single ray of hope in the darkness, a game where you're even recognised by the creators of the Reapers as "an anomaly" and that it's "clear your victories against the Reapers are not the product of chance". The game gives the impression of suddenly deciding you're getting too big for your boots in even daring to think you can beat the Reapers, and decides to not just slap you down, but slap you down hard. This is not to say that Downer Endings are all bad, but Downer Endings after 100+ hours of you winning everything is just too big a game-changer. Especially when said game-changer is delivered by a kid who, despite having awe-inspiring plotbreaker powers, seems uninclined to use any of them on your behalf just out of sheer petulance rather than inability.

    Ehhh, nvrmnd. I don't have a PC, but I watched the MEHEM mod on youtube, so I'm happy with that as my headcanon. :D
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 24, 2013
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  5. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    But if you have to resort to "head canons" to make something palatable out of something that will never be, you know you still have a problem with no easy solution. Or in this case no solution at all since the problem in question should've been addressed by the Powers That Be prior to launch day.

    Wow, nearly one year later and were still talking about the frakking endings. It's like a psychic scar that simply won't heal, no matter what we come up with to salve the wound.
  6. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2006
    star 3
    Well, they wanted the game to be memorable... [face_whistling]

    It's like when they were writting the ending, they looked up a list of items/tropes that you DO NOT use, and they used them. Couple that with Bioware's response to fan criticism that all was needed was a little "clarity" because we were too dumb to understand it, and you've got the makings of a very angry/bitter fanbase that isn't going to easily forgive or forget what happened.

    Despite playing the series on Xbox, I do have a younger brother that was more than willing to part with his PC copy of the game, so one of these days (if I feel like dealing with Origin), I might install it with MEHEM once it gets a little more fleshed out. And speaking of mods, I think someone is also trying to mod in a face for Tali, if this is anything to go by.

    And before I forget, a new Marauder Shields comic is up (Episode 41: Born From Chaos), along with the newly launched koobismo.com website.
  7. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Hopefully Garrus is in Mass Effect 4,
  8. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Off the treacherous reef of discussing the ending, I decided to advance my adept up through Thessia and Horizon, then leave a save right before doing the N7: Communications Hub mission. Going to replay that one a few times as a weapons testing ground, first up was the M-99 Saber and next will be the Chakram Launcher. I had the Saber scoped as a sniper rifle; that and an ultralight SMG left me with a decent power bonus although the Saber doesn't have much of an edge over my pimped-out Carnifex.
  9. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    All right, I'm going to steer back onto the treacherous reef one more time, mainly because I just completed the game a few minutes ago. Here's my unleavened thoughts, bearing in mind that whilst I've seen all the youtube videos, I've never had the ending imposed on 'my' Shepard until now.

    (1) Maybe it's because it's been over a year, and maybe it's because I've had a lot of warning of the endings, but looking at the endings now I don't feel quite the foaming rage that devoted fans must've felt when they first finished the game and got that ending. In particular, I don't quite agree with the criticism often made that the three choices all come out of nowhere. See, because of the ending, it made the (very few, in some cases) telegraphing of some of the endings stick out a bit more while I was playing the game. In particular, From Ashes now impresses as criminally bad not to have been part of the main game from the start, because Javik is more or less the walking argument for Destroy just as the Illusive Man is the walking argument for Control. (In passing: I used Javik so much that he was the guy I ended up having a last "bro moment" with at the Normandy evac, rather than Garrus. And I chose Destroy. More about that later.) Anyway, what I'm saying is that each of the endings were telegraphed somewhere in the course of the game.

    Does that mean the ending is good? No. It still sucks. Badly. As an example, I can't recall the moment which telegraphed Synthesis, though I know it's there somewhere. That should not have been so had the authors wanted you to seriously weigh up the choice as an alternative. In serious fiction, which is what BEAWare touted ME 3 as -- as "art" -- that's one of the accepted rules of narrative structure. The approaches to solving the problem have to be identified at least or given narrative consideration before the finale. And that's emblematic of many of the problems with the ending: they didn't make their case strongly enough one way or the other.

    It also sucks because it resorts, like all bad theatre, to exposition in the last ten minutes to explain what the hell you've been fighting all this time. The very attempt to explain the Reapers in part caused this problem. I mean, the Reapers are played throughout three games as Cthulhuesque, invincible if not invulnerable extragalactic terrors. Stephen King identified the issue well in his book Danse Macabre: horror is a genre that destroys itself, because at some point you gotta show the audience the monster. When you define the monster, as opposed to just playing on fear, you in effect show the zipper on the monster's costume. You open the door to reveal a ten-foot-tall lizard, and the audience is free to say "Whew, that's freaky, but at least it wasn't a twenty-foot-tall lizard." Lovecraft and "terrors beyond your comprehension" only succeed because they keep the monster beyond your comprehension. The more you try to explain an infinite source of power and evil, the more you show audiences the zipper on the costume. And the CataKid just rips down the zipper with nothing more interesting than plothole-heavy exposition. The irony being that Shepard's whole dream sequence thing actually works a hell of a lot better because it doesn't explain anything. Had the dream sequences been just a bit more inventive, they'd have served the story a lot better than they do.

    And to top off the bad theatre, the exposition is not handled sensitively. You really are dealing with a petulant seven-year-old kid. (Whose attitude reminds me a hell of a lot of Chris Priestly on the BSN forums, but let's not go there, hmm?) Sorry, there ain't no other solutions because I, an AI in the way you are just an animal, have only been doing this crap for 300 cycles or so, and I therefore know with the massive diversity of life there's no other way. I mean, freaking Thomas Edison, the talking ape from the Planet Dirt, went through about two hundred unsuccessful lightbulb designs before he found the one that worked, and he was working with just plain old trial and error! The most powerful AI in the galaxy really can't come up with a better solution than that, embodying all the collective intelligence of the Reapers and therefore the collective intelligence of EVERY STARFARING SPECIES THAT IT EVER HARVESTED??????? "Nope, you fail, until the end of time synthetics will always come into conflict with organics, the end." Even the Leviathan has enough open-mindedness to conclude that the "experiment" is still continuing.

    (2) Having said all of that (or perhaps because of it), having done every left-hand-choice the ReaperKid offered, I'm completely satisfied with "Destroy" as my choice. It leaves one godawful taste in the mouth (which in itself is a really, really poor design decision) but "Control" and "Synthesis" are perverted and twisted by any stretch of the imagination - and, I've come to conclude, illogical on the game's own plot terms. "Synthesis" in particular is laughable as an explanation because the CataKid's own logic rips it to bits: he says that he's tried before to Synthesise (Um, how? The variables only changed with Shepard, and the Crucible was never completed before, so how was he capable of that?) but that it "can't be forced". So a being with plotbreaking, godlike powers can't make the choice on behalf of an entire galaxy because he can't force organic life to ascend because it'll be Critical Darwin Fail every time, but it's within your power, the talking ape, the Inferior, Imperfect Lifeform, to basically rape all life at the molecular level instead? Control is more or less advocated against by the Illusive Man's example, and that's by the game itself. But I believe it's now solid reasoning that Control and Synthesis are both inferior, imperfect options by definition. The CataKid calls Synthesis ideal, and Control better than Destroy, but they rely on flawed assumptions: that organics will always war against synthetics, that organics can find no solution for themselves, and that order is always preferable to chaos. All three are invalidated by Shepard's actions in the game: peace between the Quarians and the Geth; the Crucible is constructed; and chaos is the very definition of evolution when the Reapers think only in terms of cycles. I don't buy Indoctrination Theory, charming though it is, but it seems to me Destroy is the only logical option, mainly because the Reapers and the CataKid are acting on cycles and therefore the definition of a failed computer program: an endless loop, as I've advocated before. And neither Synthesis or Control assure removal of the Reaper threat -- merely making friends with the enemy.

    (3) Onto other stuff ... the end mission was stupid long. And without a noncompulsory save. Don't know exactly why that was thought of as smart. Maybe it's to guarantee you don't play the ending much so you don't query the above logic, I don't know. Either way the Suicide Mission was a hell of a lot better constructed.

    (4) Looking back at the whole, I think the game is too long and too linear. ME 2 hits every mark on digestibility of its story: it's been described as structured like a single season of a TV series, while ME 3 is basically the Troy of computer games. You can't really choose which theatre of war you go to, you're stuck on the plot railroad and you will comply with it. There are many, many fine moments on that railroad, most of which are in the first two thirds of the game, but by the end about the only dude I was still wanting to see more of was Javik: his presence alone saves Priority: Thessia. Side missions in this game eventually feel like distractions, while side missions in ME 2 never were because they were heavily based on the characters. In particular N7 missions ended up feeling like "O hai, take a look at this cool MP map we'd like to introduce you to."

    (5) Having now sat through the three missions with Cereal Ninja, I get the criticisms entirely. Most irritating and unsatisfying fights in the game, period. "I NEED TO RECHARGE", rolling on the floor not laughing my ass off thanks very much. Only good moment was the renegade interrupt which should've been a goddamn Paragon option as with Archer back on Project Overlord.

    (6) Net conclusion: I probably won't be playing through the game again. It's a beautiful game, and maybe I'll fire up MP once in a while just for those few moments when four strangers manage to work together like a well-oiled team, but otherwise the fatigue in getting to the end is not paid off by the ending.

    That's the incomplete thinking, anyway. Maybe more tomorrow...
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  10. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I just can't do destroy. I won't wipe out the geth or EDI. And I sure won't wipe out the Reapers when they in all honesty are just slave soldiers for the Catalyst who have no choice in what they do. And not to mention destroying them will wipe out all that is left of those past species from the cycles before. Destroy is the largest genocide in the history of time. I mean my Shepard saved the Rachni, cured the Krogan, allied with the Geth. I can't believe that he would wipe out the Reapers when there is a chance we can live in peace, I mean the Catalyst even said the Reapers have no desire to do the harvests, they just are following their programing. After trusting and sparing all the mind controlled people before it'd be hypocritical of my Shepard to just kill them.

    Also I would argue the game did advance synthesis... back in ME with Saren.
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  11. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2006
    star 3
    *Places shock collar on* Just in case I start getting ranty... :p

    I've been looking at the leaked earlier drafts to see what all was changed (or not), mostly for curiosity. So, a few of my comments will reflect that.

    That's a problem I've had with the "It's Art!" argument. ME3 isn't (or isn't supposed to be) a stand alone piece. It's the conclusion to a space opera trilogy and has to follow what came before in a logical manner. You can't throw all previously established logic out the window and expect everyone to accept it because you say so. The other issue I have is this feeling that I get that because they use the "It's Art!" defense, it means that their "art" is above criticism. It's not. All forms of art are open to criticism, be it music, paintings, literature, film, and (yes, I'm including them) videogames. I've seen many, many, many people say what was wrong with the Prequel Trilogy, or Twilight, or any other forms of media, but I don't recall once hearing anyone say that just because "it's art!" that you can't criticise it because of that.

    Also, it's funny how the people who defend the endings say that if they were changed (to something like say MEHEM or IT), it would "ruin" BEAWare/BioWare's "artistic integrity." I guess Sir Arthur Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holms, or Bethesda with Fallout III were complete sell-outs. Heck, I thought J.K. Rowling originally wanted to kill Harry Potter, and was advised not to. Funny how I never hear about how outside pressure "ruined" their works. Also, do you know how much money they would have made if they had followed Bethesda's example? Make a new ending for the the people that want it, and charge for it? For some reason I'm now thinking of a line Londo Mollari said in Babylon 5: "Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How very efficient of you!"

    *feels shock-collar* Moving on!

    Admittedly, the Reapers started losing a little of the "beyond our comprehension" mystique at the end of ME2 with the revelation that they were harvesting civilizations for (more or less) reproduction. Granted, you could still do something with that, like why this race and not that race. If they had just left it at that, it'd probably be okay. But then CataKid/Caligulyst/WhateverNameWeHaveForIt just... ruins any and all mystique. Now when I look back at Sovereign boosting, I can't help but snicker and think "You're taking orders from a petulant little 8-year-old."

    So that's why I always think of Joffrey Baratheon when I see him... :p

    Speaking of Thessia and Kai Leng, I did see something interesting in one of the earlier drafts. Originally, back when Javik wasn't a DLC character, he and Liara were to be the squadies you took there. From what I could tell, the mission would play out more or less the way it did... until you got to the temple, where things get interesting.

    Javik, not Shepard, was supposed to interact with the beacon there. Something about regaining his memories. During that, you're interrupted by *cue Team Rocket theme* Kai "Cereal Ninja" Leng, who's with ... Ash/Kaidan!? *record scratch* No, it's not as dumb as it sounds. From what I gathered, originally Ash/Kaidan were going to be made a Spectre earlier and have a partner, who was on Eden Prime when you were freeing Javik. I'm not sure how, but the partner was killed, and Shep gets blamed for it. Also, Kai Leng (in this version at least) does not appear at the Citadel Coup, and is posing as an Alliance official here. Presumably he's not in his Cerberus Ninja garb either. A standoff would ensue, and either you'd talk Ash/Kaidan down and convince them Kai Leng was the bad guy, or you'd end up shooting Ash/Kaian. Then you'd end up fighting Kai Leng, and... well... I'll just copy what was there (with some grammer/spelling and terminology edits):

    Show Spoiler
    <id>504076
    <position>968
    <data>As Kai Leng's defenses wear down, he moves to draw Shepard away from the Prothean. Once sufficiently damaged, Kai Leng jumps. In cut scene, Kai Leng lands in a safe position and detonates explosives he's rigged into the area (away from the artifact). In a bright flash Shepard and the squad are hit with the full brunt of the blast.


    <id>504093
    <position>969
    <data>Shepard regains consciousness as the ringing in his ears fades and and the voices of [Ash/Kaidan] and Liara become discernible. As he tries to collect himself it becomes apparent that the Prothean is gone, A/K and Liara are in serious trouble, and Shepard has been horribly wounded. A piece of rebar protrudes from Shepard's back, he's bleeding badly, and cannot stand. Shepard crawls forward in gameplay to try to save his surviving squad members.


    <id>504104
    <position>970
    <data>As Shepard crawls along the ground, the floor continues to collapse. It's quite obvious that by the time he gets to one of his squadmates, the other will have been overcome and killed. Shepard moves slowly, painting the ground beneath him with a long bright trail of blood. His armor is damaged and cannot help him.

    If Shepard stops the ground falls out from under him and he dies. As he moves towards one squadmate, the other's situation becomes more dire. During the last leg of his crawl the path to the furthest squadmate gives way, shortly after that character is killed. Once Shepard reaches the surviving squadmate, he uses the last of his strength to assist them and colapses.


    So... no cheap gunship cover, and possibly no "I NEED TO RECHARGE!" stuff. Kai Leng actually kinda gets you there. At least here I feel like he actually beat you by planning ahead and not relying on cheap plot-armor tricks. As for that last part, on some level I can't believe they cut that. Not 100% sure how that'd work, but dang man.

    Also, fyi, I found that here. Pretty interesting stuff, regardless of what you think of the game as it is now, I think.
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  12. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    I don't argue with your decision. Whichever option is chosen it's a hideously bad outcome, which is why the ending is depressing: it's a choice of least worst rather than best. It's a sucky ending, full of petulant anti-logic by the CataKid, and let me be clear I'm not defending Destroy as an acceptable ending, only that of the three really crappy options it to me is the only one that makes sense within the game's twisted logic. The biggest error in logic to me is that the CataKid says "My solution will no longer work." If that were so, then logic all but compels the Reapers to cease what they're doing immediately, because it's throwing good money after bad. It all but compels the Reapers to shut down or withdraw, but that simple conclusion is never considered either by Shepard or by the godlike intelligence that the Catalyst supposedly represents.

    Having said that, here's how I rationalise those objections.

    (1) Arguing that if you wipe out the Reapers you commit mass genocide on 300-odd former galactic civilisations is something of a red herring to me: if so, then you shouldn't have put together the biggest space fleet in history to go and attempt to blow as many Reapers out of the sky as possible. Every single Reaper contains the entirety of what's left of a whole intelligent species, from the lowliest destroyer down to a Sovereign-class dreadnought. Assuming that fact, Shepard has committed or been responsible for genocide and/or mass murder five times at least throughout the series even leaving aside the fleet battle over Earth: Sovereign, the Rannoch Destroyer, and the Earth Destroyer would have been three entire civilsations; the Human-Reaper embryo contained thousands of human lives by definition. And even the most Paragoniest of Paragon Shepards commits mass murder by deliberately destroying the relay at Aratoht and therefore consuming 300,000 Batarian lives. And Shepard knew full well at the point of making that sacrifice was that all he was doing was buying time, not actually doing anything to stop the Reaper menace. Even if his warning had gone through, their entire planet would have been destroyed.

    And that's leaving open the question of whether he commits genocide again on the Collectors by destroying/neutron-bombing their base. On the latter issue, Mordin Solus at least is direct: no glands, no emotions, no soul -- replaced by tech. Protheans dead; Collectors merely the final insult. I think the same result occurs within the Control ending and quite likely Synthesis as well: those intelligences and civilisations are not restored to organic/synthetic individuality in either ending, they remain part and parcel of the Reapers. No, to me those civilisations are lost, irretrievably, regardless of what the CataKid says. In no ending will you restore them to individuality or to what they were - the only possibility for that is Synthesis, and Synthesis changes all life in the galaxy at the molecular level, so even that is not restoration of an extinct species.

    If there's anyone that's evil, it's the Reapers for "preserving" organic life within their hulls and then sending those hulls out to do battle, thus putting said organic life at risk (which is also part of the screwy logic of the CataKid). It may well be the Reapers use this as part of their battle strategy against warm-hearted civilisations: to destroy a Reaper is to destroy an entire civilisation, so it's a rather potent "human shield" to use against a fair-minded species.

    (2) The Reapers having no desire to do the harvests seems immaterial: as the CataKid says one second later, they're programmed to do it. So either they're sociopaths in that they know about morals but choose to ignore them, or they're psychopaths in that they simply have no conception of morals at all.

    (3) Given the above, Control and Synthesis are simply choosing to delay the inevitable, second cousin to the Refusal ending where you leave it to another species to spill blood and defeat the Reapers rather than take the responsibility for yourself. Control just puts you in charge of the Reaper fleet. (Even that, I might add, is subject to Reaper lies: the CataKid says your thoughts will continue, but the Shepard!Reaper's speech in this ending suggests it's not actually you who goes on, but rather that it allows a new AI to be born.) And Control leaves hanging the biggest issue of them all: whether someone else can come along and control you at a later date. Henry Lawson's efforts to control the Reapers fail, but the CataKid explicitly says it underestimated the resourcefulness of organics; there is no assurance someone else will not finish what the Illusive Man started or wanted. Synthesis also does not disassemble the Reapers, it merely makes them (I think) fully understand organics. It merely makes the galaxy a monochrome of life rather than the glorious rainbow of chaos it is. And again it still has a big logic problem with it: the CataKid can't force evolution, but you somehow can. Even allowing for space magic, this is too big a leap. I take it as an indication that again the CataKid is either malfunctioning or is simply unable to process any 'outside the box' solutions.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 29, 2013
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  13. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    True, I honestly think if Harbinger had been doing the voice rather than the kid the ending would've been better. At least with Harbinger we have a connection to him already and were used to his arrogance. But having some kid talk down to you is just annoying.

    1. Destroying Reapers in battle is acceptable, and destroying them completely is acceptable, IF there was no other option. But you were given options that would spare the Reapers. Why destroy them when you can have peace? It's the same reason I spared the Rachni and altered the Geth Heretics. It's a tragedy to destroy a Reaper and erase that cycles last remnant but it is acceptable as it is a war. But if you can pacify the Reapers think of all the knowledge millions of cycles will be able to provide for the galaxy. It would be the greatest scientific revolution in history. And the nature of the Reapers may be terrible but should sentient beings be destroyed simply because of how they were made? The Reapers had no choice in their creation.

    As to the Collectors, as basically husks they were very limited in the sense of living. They were soldiers for the Reapers with only that purpose. But looking at the Collector General in his final moments after Harbinger releases him you can see he has become aware he is free, and even sad at his impending doom. Destroying them was fine as it was the only option, had their been an option to spare them I may have taken it.

    I wouldn't doubt that a bit. The Reapers are fond of using human shields. Though it's likely because killing a Reaper was a very rare event.

    2. The Reapers we've seen seem to have some personality and justification. Sovereign seemed to be downright hateful towards organics and couldn't wait to wipe them out. Harbinger seemed to think he was helping organics, helping humans 'ascend' he couldn't understand why Shepard would want to stop that. The reaper on Rannoch even debates you, he/it believes in his mission, it saw the whole battle of rannoch as proof of the need for the Reapers mission. I would've loved to have seen it's reaction to the Geth Quarian ceasefire. The Reapers are intelligent and sentient beings, but they are controlled by the Catalyst. Regardless of what they actually believe they have to do the harvests. After all those years it's completely likely they rationalized along those three's lines of thinking. Morality is irrelevant to them as they can't act on it. A reaper could come to the conclusion the harvests are completely evil... but he couldn't do anything about it.

    3. Control puts Shepard in command of the Reapers, albeit a Shepard who has been turned into near god-hood in terms of power. But the core of his being is still in charge. As to if another could take control of the Reapers? Perhaps they have fail safes, maybe shepreaper had Hacket place bombs in all the Reapers just as a safety precaution. As difficult as getting the Crucible to work the first time I doubt someone could break through the reaper fleet to put it in again. Leviathan control would be more worrisome. That said it's no different than the Geth or Rachni. They were controlled and used to fight you but you could still spare them. The Reapers are no different, except in terms of power. The only downside to Control is the Reapers don't really have free will there either, they are still slaves to the master. Synthesis gives them free will apparently and from the epilogue they get along with everyone fine.

    Ultimately I just view the whole 'the only option is to destroy the reapers, it's impossible for us to coexist' to be just as flawed as the catalyst's views of 'the only option is to harvest organics, they can't coexist with synthetics'

    But I will agree the Catalyst is an idiot. I don't get why Shepard didn't just do this.
    Catalyst: My solution will no longer work. You must decide.
    Shepard: If this will no longer work why are the Reapers still fighting, why not tell them to stop until we work something out, it's not like they are in any danger of getting destroyed out there. That way others can come and put in their input and help make this decision. And you know... I could get medical attention before I bleed out, cause right now I'm not even sure your real. I mean do you really want me in this state to decide the fate of the galaxy? And also you already were expecting this harvest to last a few hundred years. What's a few days of ceasefire going to do for your schedule?
    Catalyst: ...........................................................
  14. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Well, let's just agree to disagree on the merits of Destroy - I don't think it's going to get us much further and we're both heading into the territory of speculation at this stage. :) LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYBODY! :D
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jan 29, 2013
  15. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2006
    star 3
    Not to be too nitpicky, but Shepard doesn't have to destroy the Aratoht system. If you don't do Arrival, Hackett sends in a Spec ops team and, well... same result. Only difference is the 103rd Division war asset gets nerffed.

    At the risk of continuing the discussion on the ending, I never got why (nevermind how) the CataKid looked like... well, the kid. :p Why didn't he look like whoever we left behind on Virmire, Mordin, Thane, Legion, Anderson, or even Shep's LI or BFF? Wouldn't just about any of them be better suited in trying to convince Shep that the CataKid was right? As for Harbinger, I'll just assume we didn't want an antagonistic response from the start. Although that would make me wonder why we didn't just start shooting him as soon as he said he controlled the Reapers... Yeah, having Harbinger as Reaper Overlord makes more sense. :p

    There was something I was thinking about, related to Destroy. I think an ending that I would have found... palatable (yes, even with everything else exactly the same), would have been to have Shep walk up to the Tube of Doom (I'm trademarking that now), and threaten to shoot it unless they left. All the while reminding CataKid that even though Shep, EDI, and (possibly) the geth would die, so would he and his Reaper minions. If he was supposed to find a way to "preserve" the civilizations housed within the Reapers, doesn't that mean he ultimately fails in his assigned programing? If he threatens to turn it off, tell him it doesn't matter, you and your allies will still continue fighting them. While CataKid and his Reaper buddies wouldn't lose most likely, they would still take losses, which would mean more dead civilizations that had been "preserved." Losses that could have been prevented if he and the Reapers just... left.

    And yes, bonus points if the line "Get the hell out of our Galaxy!" was used.;)

    In this scenario, the Reapers leave, Shep,while still gravely injured, survives and is rescued (non of that lazy breath scene "implications" stuff). Only major trade-off with this ending would be that there's no 100% guarantee that the Reapers would not come back. Did the CataKid see the error of his ways, or is he just bidding his time? Were you right in sticking to your morals and letting the most dangerous things in the galaxy just leave? Would it have been better to lose your morals just that once to permanitly rid the galaxy of the Reapers, even if you did have to sacrifice allies to do it, or become the very thing you fought against the entire game? Leave it open-ended, and thus leave the original RBG endings as viable alternatives.
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  16. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Sounds like a nice option to me. And an "outcome uncertain" option like that would work a lot better as a "canon" ending for a possible ME4, too. Sorry to say that I don't know how the hell they plan to make a post-ME 3 RPG without completely shattering the userbase, because they'd have to canonise one of the three four endings. I'm not really convinced by the argument "Well, hey, the Stargazer's, like, a couple thousand years down the line, by then all the differences will have ironed themselves out" -- if so, then that would just confirm there really is no difference whichever way you choose, Ascending To A Higher Plane Of Existence included.

    In passing: I found the Stargazer calling a kid "my sweet" to have very unfortunate implications.
  17. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Also just found out that the guy giving you orders in Multiplayer also did the voice for Captain America in 'Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes'. I thought that voice was familiar.
  18. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Writer says:

    [IMG]

    Incidentally, the tinkly music during the last scenes was not fantastic, either. After the EPIC MANLINESS of the Suicide Mission soundtrack, I went into the ending expecting something like this:

    [IMG]

    And instead I got something that made me feel a bit like this (well, sort of like the whole ending, really):

    [IMG]

    (Sorry, I've been reading the Fifty Shades of Grey review on goodreads.com, from which most of these gifs were filched. There are others, and they're a lot funnier. :D )
  19. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    yea... even a year later i still remember exactly how i felt at the end of the game. i literally stared at the screen through the entire credits thinking "that's it? there's no way that's it. i just wasted over 100 hours playing through all three of these for THIS?" i actually regretted even playing them for a little while. now i kinda agree with the indoctrination theory in a lot of ways. mainly because of this: with how much shep was around the reaper stuff, why should he and his team be immune to having it happen to them too? there's no reason, and no explanation for it. and james hearing the buzzing sound that isn't there, for instance. just too many little things like that suggest that it's at least part of what happened.

    having not played leviathan, or seen the extended edition, i can't say if that changes anything at all. but for what i've done/seen, that's what i'm buying.

    on another note, damn. that would have been an amazing finish at thessia. downright evil of them in some ways.
  20. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    I had refrained of enterring this discussion since we've talked and regurgitated on the ending for time out of mind now, but think you hit upon the kind of ultimate option for the endgame that could've ultimately saved he game and the franchise itself, one that was - again - a sorely missed opportunity in the Extended Cut: Persuasion. Just like you could only get TIM to off himself according to the purity of your Paragon/Renegade stance as well as total war assets, that calculus should've been considered during your confrontration with CataKid the Unfriendly Ghost.

    Removing Red, Blue and Green would be impossible since thy're there by design decisions. Refusal was an interesting twist but the ultimate outcome is just as poor as RBG. However, depending on your performance and moral stance throughout the entire saga -- not just ME3 -- at a certain point during your conversation with CataKid you could unlock certain interrupts or Paragon/Renegade dialogue options that would change of dynamic of the conversation. In these new dialogue options you would be able to show the Reapers how flawed their programming had become and how utterly pointless and illogical the repeated cycle of saving life from machines by destroying it and turning it into machines is. Yes, I wanted Shepard to say to that goddam ghost "Wait, you're protecting organic life from being destroyed by synthetic life by destroying it and turning it into gigantic synthetic life? You're kidding me right? That does not compute! That makes absolutely zero sense!".

    Getting CataKid to agree to that flaw would open new choices. He'd still offer RBG as viable options and that'd serve as a compromise for those players that in their insanity or otherwise misguided stance to defend BEAWare's decisions still accept them as valid options for their final decisions. Refusal would still be there for the same reason. But according to the purity of your Shepard's Paragon or Renegade stance throughout the series (by this I mean a near absolute stance on either path throughout the series that could be quantified to, say, 95% Paragon/Renegade; too much ambivalence/grey throughout the games would not allow you to unlock the final interrupts or Paragon/Renegade dialogue options), Shep would offer CataKid one of two alternatives. Paragon would be the "Get the hell out of my galaxy and never come back" option, since he argues that the Reapers are an advanced lifeform that -- despite of what they have done throughout the aeons -- does have the right to exist, as long as it's not in the same galaxy or universe. Renegade would demand their immediate destruction and theirs only. Be it by shutdown, flying themselves into the Sun, whatever. Either way, you get your victory, hard won due to all your decisions throughout the series, which is something the creative team definitely lost sight of when concocting that mediocre ending. It could've been so easy to implement and it's a shame Hudson & Co. couldn't be bothered to even consider such an option.
    GenAntilles, Saintheart and Trimaj like this.
  21. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Then again, if you were a >95% Renegade Shep, taking the Destroy option is probably very much in character. Collateral damage in the course of taking out the Reapers doesn't exactly keep you awake at night. A Destroy option that doesn't involve losing EDI and the Geth would probably fit the bill for many fans' "ideal" ending.

    Fridge Logic moment, realizing why the destruction of "all synthetics" makes sense: both EDI and the Geth have Reaper code. That might explain why they get taken out as well and why the mass relays and Citadel also take damage - the Crucible fries everything with Reaper components.

    Oh well. Personally I don't get that worked up about it.
  22. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I was talking with a friend about the ending and we both realized that the Destroy ending was pretty much just taking Ashley's 'you'll sacrifice your dog to a bear no matter how much you say you love it if you have to save yourself' speech and actually applying it. You are put in a scenario where you can save yourself, but only if you sacrifice the beings you spent the whole game saying you treated like living beings like everyone else. I wonder if the writers thought of that similarity when they wrote it.

    And also Saren advocating Synthesis, and Illusive Man advocating Control, and of course the Reapers advocating refusal.

    Dang every option was advocated in a negative manner.
    Last edited by GenAntilles, Feb 2, 2013
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  23. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Hmm. True from a certain point of view, but aside from the lure that Shep survives in the high-EMS version the advocacy for Destroy is Ding Dong the Witch is Dead. No ambiguity over whether CataShep can remain a benevolent AI god, no forced molecular rewrite of every being in the galaxy, a merciful end for the husks (seriously, ever think of whether or not the multiple beings grafted together to form a Scion or Praetorian would all regain consciousness?), and overall taking out the threat that has plagued the galaxy for over a billion years while giving CaspaKid an explosive middle finger. The sacrifice of EDI and the Geth gives the galaxy a chance to set their own destiny, not one outlined by an AI overlord.

    While you're right that Saren did kind of advocate Synthesis, a clearer advocate would be Legion - you're doing exactly what he did for the Geth; dissolving your essence to grant enhanced abilities to your people. His sacrifice on Rannoch is essentially a preview of the Synthesis option.

    Off the topic of endings, I've been running tests with some less-used weapons on the N7: Communications Hub mission. The following are the rejects of the litter:

    M-29 Incisor - WTF. This may take the cake as the most useless gun in the game. 2-3 bursts of Rank 6 Squad AP ammo to take down a basic assault trooper?

    Acolyte - Probably a runner-up. I've seen Liara do damage with it, but the charge time and the slow, bouncing projectile just about render it useless for me.

    Kishock Harpoon Gun - Not useless, but it stinks as a sniper rifle. Not accurate enough for long-range shooting. Given that there's no damage penalty for shooting from the hip, you're better off running around like a demented pirate shishkabobbing things at close range. Amusing how it leaves three-foot spears jammed through mooks.

    Reegar Carbine - Shove it in the enemy's face and it's lethal. Any farther away and it makes for a nice sparkler.

    M-99 Saber and N7 Crusader - These two have the same flaws. On the plus side, both are highly accurate and hit hard. Both are heavy (Crusader is up there with the Claymore) and have a lot of recoil. And both don't do any more damage than a pimped-out M-6 Carnifex.

    Not so lousy: N7 Valkyrie, M-55 Argus, Chakram Launcher, AT-12 Raider. Not great picks and they're outclassed by other weapons, but not totally useless either. The Chakram is fairly light for something in the AR class and the Raider delivers a lot of up-close punch in short order. I was actually kind of surprised how effective the M-4 Shuriken was if given a high-caliber barrel and a stabilizing mod; I might like it better than the Geth Plasma SMG.
  24. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Does anyone know if the New Endings for Mass Effect 3 were included in the Mass Effect Trilogy set?
  25. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Not sure, but note the Extended Cut itself is only available for a certain period of time going by PSN.

    As for multiplayer, which I'm enjoying a bit as I slowly get the hang of it ... I've found a combo that seems to allow me to keep up with all the blue-flashing Adepts and Vanguards out there: bog-standard Turian Soldier with Krysae Sniper Rifle, modded with one of those armor-piercing extended barrels. I managed to hang in at second place in some instances, on Silver no less.

    It's got a horribly small magazine and long reload time, but I discovered by accident the joys of quick-firing off Level 6 Concussive Shots and then sending a Krysae round to follow straight after it. It's like a quick one-two punch: Concussive stun-locks or knocks the opponent out of hiding, then the missile hits it square in the face. This is much better than two shots to kill a damned Assault Trooper. I've given up carrying a second weapon, mainly because switchover time is too slow anyway and Concussive at least gives me a chance to back the hell out of bad situations, so it's my second gun anyway. I'm going to look into Proximity Mines next, mainly because Marksman's kind of pointless when you've only got three shots in the magazine.