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Lit Mass migrations in Star Wars history...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Arapsis, Jun 14, 2013.

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  1. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2004
    Strictly speaking, the Troy-Rome connection is Infinities in reality. :p
     
    Starkeiller, Jun 15, 2013
    #26
    cthugha likes this.
  2. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    it is not ;) schoolbooks are decades behind with updates from science standards... and then again, most scientists who oppose the popular view will be hailed as visonaries who were right centuries later :p *looks at Gallileo and folks*
     
    CeiranHarmony, Jun 15, 2013
    #27
  3. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Science standards demonstrate that some genealogical myth fabricated two thousand years ago is true? I guess I'm the Spanish Inquisition then.

    *cue gong sound*
    "Torquemada! Do not employ him for compassion. Torquemada! Do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada! Do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't talk him outta anything!"
     
    Starkeiller, Jun 15, 2013
    #28
  4. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    CeiranHarmony, Jun 15, 2013
    #29
    Iron_lord likes this.
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    More than vaguely, since jSarek explicitly connected the usage of the Greek alphabet in Star Wars to the Tionese alphabet.

    I see little to no reason why the Galactic Republic would have started out as a democracy at all, especially since the Republic is currently speculated to be a defensive alliance against the Rataka. Such a grouping of Core Worlds would suggest a grouping of equals, therefore republican in representation rather than democratic. You note that the Core Founders themselves lend themselves towards this hypothesis.

    On the other hand, the notion of functional constituencies is something that occurs very late in the Old Republic's history and has little to nothing to do with aristocracy or oligarchy at all. I'd caution you against making some sort of modish, Parenti-style conflation of ancient aristocracy and modern plutocracy; the two are very different in kind. It's just as bad as Syme -- an otherwise excellent scholar -- comparing Augustus to the political strongmen of his day.

    Finally, placing aristocracy side by side with fascism is downright hilarious and utterly inappropriate -- one might as well talk about how the Romanovs and the Bolsheviks were great buddies! Fascists despise and abhor aristocracy with a fervor almost as mad as a socialist revolutionary. Both despite the leisured classes for different reason: the fascists hate all that is not of utility to the state while the socialists -- at least those of the totalitarian bent -- despite all those who allegedly prosper on the backs of the common man. Moreover, aristocrats have disdain for both (although some egocentric traitors to their class have been known to make common cause with either side).

    At any rate, the Roman comparison with the Republic is rather strong. Lucas has explicitly compared Palpatine's rise over the Senate to Caesar's (among other comparisons; Hitler and the Reichstag come to mind as well). The Senate Guard wear Roman-style plumed helmets (identified in the EU as the helmet of the Notron Centurions; Notron being the original name of Coruscant). Finally, High Galactic -- the old language of state, religion, and high culture in the Republic -- is essentially pseudo-Latin.

    One of the possible origins of the Etruscan civilization is Hittite, and Troia was a Hittite client city and border outpost, most likely. Recall that the Trojan connection is far older than Virgil -- Ennius wrote of it, and the connection was commented on by Fabius Pictor as well. Myths sometimes have roots in long mis-remembered history, particularly in the time period where such things were passed on orally due to a want of literacy.
     
    GrandAdmiralJello , Jun 15, 2013
    #30
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  6. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2004
    The slight corporatist element of non-political interests being represented in the Galactic Senate (added to Palpatine's "ideology") was what reminded me of fascism, not the fact that most Senators belong to the galactic aristocracy. I never placed aristocracy side by side with fascism.

    The fact that the overwhelming Greek influence on Roman civilization is justified through Evander (a myth which intersects with Aeneas's settlers) suggests that you are right: some connection with Anatolia most likely exists. It's the connection with Troy specifically that strikes me as a complete fabrication based on the popularity of Homer.
     
    Starkeiller, Jun 15, 2013
    #31
  7. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    In that case, I'm still not sure I see the connection. What does corporatism have to do with functional constituencies? It wasn't that the Republic was regarding these groups as bodies worthy of representation on the basis of their composition, but on their scale.


    Yeah -- on par with fabricated genealogies of various royal and aristocratic houses (random example, the Aeacid house of Pyrrhus and its supposed descent from Achilles -- psh!).
     
    GrandAdmiralJello , Jun 15, 2013
    #32
  8. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2004
    Corporate organizations exercising political power certainly has something to do with corporatism: that's a basic definition of the term. You are right that the late Old Republican system is not strictly corporatism as the fascists understood it because the Techno Union and the Trade Federation basically bought their seats instead of the state integrating corporations as a matter of principle. It's simply that the whole Roman analogy, coupled with the militarism of the Clone Wars, led me to think of Mussolini's Italy and brought this corporatist element to my attention.

    You had to be descended either from Achilles or from Herakles in order to be someone back in the day. Goes to explain Alexander's conquests: he was "descended" from both. ;)
     
    Starkeiller, Jun 15, 2013
    #33
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  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Ah, see, corporatism in the political sense -- as I've understood it -- refers to the composition and ordering of society and the state. In other words, the governing apparatus views people not as individuals at all, but as discrete corporate entities -- as demographics, almost. I'm not entirely sure that a close association between the instrumentalities and agents of commerce and the state is really corporatism at all: it feels like a false etymology to me.

    I will, however, confess that I am no political scientist.
     
    GrandAdmiralJello , Jun 15, 2013
    #34
  10. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2004
    The two definitions are not mutually exclusive. If the state views the people it governs as discreet corporate entities, that is how it will seek to organize them.
     
    Starkeiller, Jun 15, 2013
    #35
  11. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    from a years old topic of me:



    old lore, new light.. what if the Tionese did what the Jedi did to those who later became the Sith? The Tionese exiled some morons.. who ended up on Coruscant and started to subjugate and exterminate the poor Taung species... that fought back and escaped in the end! history repeating itself...
     
    CeiranHarmony, Jun 15, 2013
    #36
  12. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Where did you originally post this? Are you suggesting that the Sith species is descended from a group of Zhell?
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 15, 2013
    #37
  13. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004

    posted it years if not a decade ago on TFN.
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-zhell-are-the-true-sith-proof-inside.23906646/

    and I am not talking the Sith species = Zhell here. merely that the Zhell share many cultural and linguistic elements that the sith species had, and that we may need to reconsider what the Dark Jedi brought to the Sith species and what they took of their culture. Though there may be a connection between the Zhell and the Sith species, not genetically, but culturally long before the Dark Jedi were exiled to them. maybe even connected to one of old mentions of 100.000 year old Sith traditions that predate Exiles arrival and King Adas even.
     
    CeiranHarmony, Jun 15, 2013
    #38
  14. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Then how would the Zhell and Sith species end up with those cultural similarities?
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 15, 2013
    #39
  15. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    remember a certain Killik Sith Lord on Alsakan that predated the Sith's existance as per Exiles? absorbing cultures and bringing them elsewhere is their speciality.. Coruscant isn't that far a hop
     
    CeiranHarmony, Jun 15, 2013
    #40
  16. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Interesting... Still, humans and the Sith species having a common ancestor has a cool irony imo. Any thoughts on my ancestry idea?
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 15, 2013
    #41
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Right -- but the difficulty is not that there were two definitions, but rather that it was the aspect of corporatism which I described which is more emblematic of fascism than a close alliance between industry and the state. It's not the sort of thing we see in the Old Republic, nor is the use of functional constituencies close enough an association to fit your description at any rate -- it seems more like outsized corporate influence rather than direct participation. A fine line, to be sure, but a line crossed in both regards with the Empire, which was unquestionably fascistic in many respects.
     
    GrandAdmiralJello , Jun 15, 2013
    #42
  18. Big Fat'Lya

    Big Fat'Lya Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2013
    Aren't the Baragwin supposed to be everywhere? There must have been a lot of large-scale migrations there.
     
    Big Fat'Lya, Jun 16, 2013
    #43
  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Does all life in the GFFA have a common ancestor?
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 16, 2013
    #44
  20. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    :confused:
    By the gods no, don’t even give them ideas.
     
    Gorefiend, Jun 16, 2013
    #45
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I'm afraid they already have ideas. All I want to know is where the Sith species came from and what they evolved from!
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 16, 2013
    #46
  22. Darth_Arapsis

    Darth_Arapsis Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 21, 2013
    Marvel, Planet Hulk:

    [​IMG]
     
    Darth_Arapsis, Jun 16, 2013
    #47
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Serious question: Are you responding to my post?
     
    darklordoftech, Jun 16, 2013
    #48
  24. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    That or just remind us of how awesome that cartoon movie was. :)
     
    Gorefiend, Jun 16, 2013
    #49
  25. Darth_Arapsis

    Darth_Arapsis Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 21, 2013
    Yes, but no, the cartoon is recent thing, maybe it's ripoff, but it's probably a coincidence.
     
    Darth_Arapsis, Jun 17, 2013
    #50
    darklordoftech likes this.
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