PT Maul or Dooku?

Would you guys rather have kept things the way they were and have Darth Maul killed off in the first movie and replaced with Count Dooku? Or would you have preferred Darth Maul to have been the main Antagonist up unitl RotS?

Personally either way i think having 1 main villain, 1 main obvious adversary for the Jedi through the majority of the PT would have been better, whether it be Count or Maul doesn't matter, though I would have loved to see Maul have a bigger part to play and have more lines!

 

I like both and they both have different and great aspects.

Maul is a silent threat, who impose fear through his appearance and actions, with a fast aggressive fighting style. Dooku is urbane and refined, but not above taunting his opponents, who's fighting style is much more like fencing.

They also both foreshadow Anakin's future, a dark side henchman, and a fallen Jedi.

I love 'em both.



By the way, google has failed me in finding a picture of the two hugging

 

I would have liked to have kept Darth Maul as the main antagonist for most of the PT. First of all, he was very imposing without having much of a character, so he could have been truly great, if he had some sort of interesting arc. It would have clearly set up Obi-Wan as the main protagonist, who has a real personal history with Maul, rather than an indirect one through Qui-Gon-Jinn. It also would have allowed us to delve more deeply into the Sith master/apprentice relationship. It would have been interesting if Maul was the one who succeeded in seducing Anakin, adding to the personal vendetta between Obi-Wan and Maul, in an attempt to overthrow Sidious, not knowing that Sidious is aware of this, and is also planning to replace Maul with Anakin.

 

Maul.

Didn't like the character of Count Dooku in general. If they were going to go with a new Sith it should have been a new species. Not a type cast actor who only plays bad guys (Dracula, Sauromon).

 

Exactly, Maul is a fan favourite without having much if any story arc, essentially no lines and not much purpose. Imagine if he had all these things, he could have achieved true greatness, so much so it could rival Darth Vader!

 

No. There's a purpose for why Maul was gone at the end of TPM and replaced by someone else. And there's no reason to keep Maul as the main villain throughout the PT other than personal preference by some.

 

Darth Maul could not possibly play the role that Count Dooku plays down the line. His death was necessary for the storyline.

 

I object to the name Dooku.

 

If that's the criteria, then Tarkin shouldn't have been played by another typecast bad guy, Peter Cushing.

I am glad to see both Cushing and Lee cap their long careers with badass bad guys in a modern mythology for a new generation.

 

Alexrd and Defensor are right- Maul needed to die in TPM in order for Dooku to come in, for a number of reasons, them being:

1. Dooku works better as Anakin's foil and Maul as Obi-Wan's

2. Dooku foreshadows Darth Vader in that he was a Jedi who fell to the dark side, and Maul foreshadows him in the dissension of fear through his physical attributes.

 

Two fallen Jedi antagonist in the prequel series was too much tbh, and I agree with MidKnighT , Count Dooku as a character wasn't an original idea, he was already a well known antagonist for other series such as LotR and Dracula, while Maul was an original character of his own.

If a creature like Grievous can lead the Separatist armies, Maul could do better.

 

Maul may have been a "thin" character but he was executed very well. TPM did a good job of portraying him as a sinister badass without anyone having to actually tell the audience he was a sinister badass. I think the physical acting by Park was actually really good. He was able to use facial expressions, stances, etc to portray a menacing figure with almost no dialogue. I was generally interested in wanting to know more about Maul.

 

I actually think combining Qui-Gonn and Dooku's characters could have led to something really, really interesting. Imagine Anakin's mentor figure turning to the separatist side.

 

So are two loyal servants of the Dark Side. Or two half-machine villains. Each prequel lightsaber duelist is meant to foreshadow Vader in some sort of way.

You are just listing off movies in which Christopher Lee had appeared as an antagonist, those characters are not the same as Count Dooku. They may share some traits, but diverge in important topics such as motivation. If being portrayed by the same actor makes them similar characters, than Toad and Darth Maul would be similar. They are not, in any way.

And Maul doesn't really have much of a character in TPM. He is a plot device meant to reveal the Sith and provide a lightsaber duel at the end of the movie - which does not detract from the plot, since TPM's main villain is Nute Gunray. Maul is silent, and loyal, and dies. That's about it.

Grievous also couldn't play Dooku's role. Count Dooku's wealth and position, combined with his role as a former Jedi master, lent prestige to his claims about a corrupt Republic. He was the one to unite 10,000 systems under a cause, plus guaranteeing the support of the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, and the other financial institutions.

Grievous was a military commander who served as Dooku's hound for most of the Clone Wars, and took over his leadership role rather precariously after the Count's death. His inability to properly lead is referenced in ROTS by Nute Gunray, and even Grievous seems kind of lost at his master's demise ("But the loss of Count Dooku..."). Dooku's death kickstarts the end of the Clone Wars and sends the Separatists into hiding.

 

I would have liked to have seen Ep. 1 use Maul as Sidious assassin but also show his master Darth Plaguies. Count Dooku could have been a disgruntled Jedi along with Qui Gon and Sifo Dyas. I would show Plagueis's death at the hands of Sidious and Dooku injure or kill Maul saving Obi Wan showing the beginning of the Clone Wars. Ep. 2 would show Dooku starting the Seperatist but we now know he's a hero using a green/blue saber and no one trust him when he says Sidious is Palpatine. Ep.3 has Anakin killing him as instructed and we have a much more interesting plot to follow.

 

I'm fine with it the way it is. I like both, and I'm glad to have them.

If this was an error (I'm not sure it was), it was not a critical one, imo.

Btw, there was one main antagonist, one obvious (from our pov) adversary for the Jedi. His name was Palpatine. Frank Palpatine.

 

Both serve their functions fine. For several reasons I think having both makes things really interesting...

Maul is a simple character but an effective one. I think he works fine in terms of us being able to understand his character enough given his apparent backstory of being being purely molded in darkness as an apprentice under Palpatine. Plot-wise he is important in that managed to reveal the return of the Sith which rattles the Jedi, kill Qui-Gon in combat and thus keep him from being Anakin's ideal mentor, and also provided a test by fire for Obi-Wan to prove himself ready to become a Jedi Knight. Not to mention it served as a surprising counterintuitive inversion on A New Hope. Where the Dark Side apprentice Vader survived and the political villain Tarkin died, the reverse happens with Maul getting slain and Gunray surviving to play a role later. I can tell you that it surprised me that he died anyway.

And as others have pointed out, he was played as the silent type and as an assassin rather than a charismatic leader of men. Not to mention that a known Sith Lord who killed one of their best masters showing up to lead a political movement would more than likely have had a harder time not getting immediately bared down upon than one led by a respected veteran former Jedi Master not known to have Sith connections.

In terms of Palpatine's character it also serves as a nice illustration of the "quick and easy path" mentality Yoda speaks of when it comes to embracing the Dark Side given that after losing his first Sith apprentice who was the only one that he trained from the ground up in Maul he decided instead to corrupt older Jedi with established training instead which naturally cuts out a lot of the time and effort. Whether it be Dooku, Anakin, or attempting to do the same to Luke. That lack of patience coming to bite him in the end given what goes down with the latter two as he attempts to kill the "Golden Goose" as it were when attempting to trade up Vader for his son.

I don't know if it's ever been brought up but I like the apparent trend, though I'm not sure if it's been confirmed anywhere, with most of the major PT villains (well the Jedi rival lightsaber wielding ones anyway) of the most dangerous ones being the more unassuming and manipulative. In the sense that at least to my understanding it would go Grievous < Maul < Dooku < Palpatine. Grievous and Maul being more ostentatious characters. With their true allegiances/goals as villains not particularly hidden. Both are also presented more directly as "muscle" for the bad guys on some level. And both are even the ones we see wielding more than one lightsaber blade, 4 and 2 respectively. (Grievous is also louder in personality and boastful over his Jedi killer reputation whilst Maul is more of the silent type and largely hidden in the shadows)

Palpatine and Dooku being more subtle and subversive political manipulators with hidden agendas. (One being a respected former the Jedi whilst the other's Force abilities as a whole were kept hidden in his position as a politician. I could also bring up that Dooku's saber still has a distinct flair to its design whilst Palpatine's is the most generic. Am I going too far with this? lol) Both of whom also turn out to be the more powerful on top of that. (Maul whilst showing some more direct basic skills isn't as advanced as the other two whilst Grievous naturally didn't have it all, not to mention how both are also superior lightsaber duelists) Arguably this breaks down a little when you get to Palpatine's deformity and Anakin getting into the suit, when the hidden evil is finally fully brought to light when it's too late, but I think it's stuff worth considering.

Not to mention that as said multiple times before, there is a theme of building up to Vader as the "ultimate" Sith apprentice given how all of Palpatine's chief dragons prior (even if one of them isn't technically a Sith though he received saber combat training from one, has the right sounding name ending in -us, has yellow eyes, and a cape to boot! lol) reflect elements of him. The physically terrifying Sith apprentice, the powerful Jedi turned to the Dark Side, and the cyborg commander.

Though I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up, I'd also say that arguably the weaknesses in each gets accounted for by the others which get built into Vader. Dooku is killed when overpowered by a younger and physically stronger opponent (Anakin literally holding him by the arm to keep him in place to deliver the crippling blow) and Grievous because of his opponent's Force ability. (Obi-Wan using it to grasp a blaster from afar in order to take him out) Each being cancelled out by the strengths the other provides. Whether it be the physical might of cyborg machinery that would prevent physical weakening with age as happened to Dooku or the advanced knowledge of and power to wield the Force that Grievous wasn't able to counter at least when separated from his sabers. Vader having both of those things on his side.

Maul's sadism/cockiness being his undoing when he simply taunts Obi-Wan when he's hanging seemingly helplessly in spite of how he proved formidable enough to slice his weapon in half. (Palpatine falls prey to the same in Return of the Jedi notably whilst torturing Luke with his Force lightning, like Maul thinking he has his opponent caught separate from his lightsaber cornered and helpless) Whilst Anakin did let emotion/arrogance get to his head during his duel with Obi-Wan (it's what did him in there after all) after we see him get in the suit he seems to have developed at least a bit more control over such things. For instance whilst he does seem to toy around/hold back with Luke on some level during their first duel, he doesn't take the chance and moves in to swiftly end it right after Luke manages to get a lucky strike in even when he (Like Maul had Obi-Wan) had him cornered hanging over a pit and easily could have messed with him more there if he wanted to. Maul on the other hand wound up giving Obi-Wan the time to re-center himself and defeat him. Again, I don't know if this stuff was all intentional, but it's at least fun food for thought I figure.

So yeah. There's the long ramble on my disagreeing with the idea that Maul should have been the only one. Now do I think that Lucas could have done that well? Sure, and I have no issue with people wishing Maul a bigger role but I like these sort of thematic ideas you can glean, or at least speculate about, from how it was handled with the multiple apprentices.

 

Dooku had form, class, training and style. Mail had animalistic, primal, brutality. As much as I love Dooku I would have liked to see Maul stick around for one more movie. Though just having him in TPM is just like a violent flash of Sith-y sinister and then it's gone.

 

They created a memorable villain with Darth Maul. As good as Vader but in a different way. He had an iconic face and a strong presence whenever he appeared.

 

I liked both. I never saw this obsession with having "one" across all three movies.

 

Imo the PT suffers from a revolving door of villains. Aside from the fact that they were killed off very quickly, they didn't get much screen time either. As such, I feel none of them are fully fledged characters, and therefore all flash and no substance. A single memorable villain is much preferred by me, whether it be Maul or Dooku.

 

All prequel villains ended up being memorable, so it's a win win as far as I can see it.

 

I like both and I don't think I would like it as much if Dooku or Maul were not both in the movies. I think they were both memorable for different reasons. Maul was fierce and mysterious and introduced us to the Sith again perfectly but Count Dooku was sopihsticated and complex and made the story alot more complex too.

 

I actually don't mind Maul only being in one film as I think he served his purpose well in TPM. Plus I really liked how TCW has handled the character making him interesting. Dooku had a lot potential to be a complex villian but was wasted IMO with little screentime to devolep as a character. TCW didn't do much with the character either, really nothing but a mustache twirling villian. So if I had pick one, I would pick Dooku as the main villian until ROTS.

 

I am not a big fan of Dooku's. For one, he is just aesthetically boring compared to the other villains. Vader, Palpatine, Jango, Kylo, Snoke, Grievous, Maul... Dooku is just some old guy. And unlike Tarkin, really just lacks the same presence, IMO.

Second, he's introduced late in AOTC and killed early in ROTS.

Maul, in contrast is aesthetically interesting, but one dimensional. And serves no purpose other than to put the Sith on the Jedi radar and have a lightsaber fight. His defeat serves no purpose other than to get him out of the way.

Lucas' justification for Dooku seems to be as a proto-Vader to show Jedi could fall

Dooku is both Qui-Gon's master and Yoda's apprentice, but neither element of the character's history is utilized to any effect, IMO. Nor is his broader history as a Jedi.

There are three ways I feel they could have improved on this:

1. Combine both characters . Have the character survive TPM and go on to lead the Separatists in the second chapter.

2. Keep them separate, but establish Dooku in TPM and use that film to establish him as a good guy, then have him appear as Maul's replacement in AOTC to make his betrayal more potent.

3. Have him represent a third faction. He genuinely hates the Sith, he gives into the dark side but does not join them, and wants them destroyed for killing Qui-Gon. He hates the Republic/Jedi inaction following the events of TPM, so he splits off and forms his own government, with Maul and Palpatine manipulating the conflict while the Jedi and Republic sink into civil war.

As is, Dooku's name gets dropped early in AOTC as some character we have no familiarity with, he doesn't show up until late in the movie, and by that time it turns into a rush of action sequences shortly thereafter. Lucas had an interesting premise for the character but didn't really develop him. Establishing him in TPM would have helped alot, IMO.

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