Maul vs. Vader?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Lord_Windu, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. darthgrendel2003 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2003
    star 1
    my rebuttal is as follows...

    1)mace says that he might be the one who brings "balance to the force", as the prophecy states. while it could be construed as conjecture what this all implies, i would guess that anyone being the central figure in a prophecy would be extremely powerful. as for the midi count, while we don't know mauls, we do know that anakin was born of the force, much like another person in history, who was supposed to be a messiah. the problem with anakin though is that he goes down the wrong path. (wow just saw a preview for the last samurai) this might stray off topic a bit, but palpatine can be seen as being the anti-christ, evil incarnate, and anakin is the only one who can stop him. he gets seduced by evil, but ultimately he fulfills the prophecy and brings balance to the force by killing palpatine. the databank at the site calls anakin, "...a child born of prophecy." however, as i stated before, midis have been abandoned by lucas, as you cannot find anything about them on the site. there is nothing said about maul being born of prophecy, or "leading the galaxy through eras of lightness and darkness"
    3)as the site says about maul fighting the jedi, "qui-gon was utterly suprised and unprepared" to fight maul. maul has been training to fight the jedi, he is called, to paraphrase, a weapon forged by the dark side of the force to have revenge against the jedi order. thus, maul, coupled with his undeniable skill and dark side powers, has been training for this moment his entire life. this is his purpose. qui-gon and obi-wan have nowhere near the amount of preperation that maul has had, they do not even study offensive saber techniques, instead studying techniques that use the saber for defense against blasters. and perhaps, using inference and since maul is such a tactician and cunning warrior, he has studied up on his opponents, and knows their styles and weaknesses. the jedi are as caught with their pants down as one could possibly be, while maul is prepared as he could possibly be, no? given all of that, while the duel in TPM is my favorite scene is any star wars movie, maul's performance is not as impressive as we believe it to be. it's like studying for a test your whole life, (instead of the night before like all of us) knowing the subject and the questions that will be asked, as opposed to going into a test with no advance knowledge of the topic, or that the topic even exists. it's like giving someone from the roman empire an exam on astro-physics, and giving it to stephen hawking, and then comparing grades. it's not fair. given all that, maul's performance is outstanding and a testament to his skill. the jedi are indeed handicapped. however, i am not comfortable commenting on what might happen in epIII, so i won't speculate and use that to back up my argument. luke does use the force while he is fighting vader though, he uses it to guide his actions and enhance his ability. it is a surge of dark power that fells vader in rotj. luke gives into his hatred, the only way to defeat vader. luke cannot beat vader, he simply does not have the skill or power yet. however, he is anakin's son, and is extremely powerful. we'll have to wait and see for epIII to see vader in his prime.
    more on this when i have more time to complete it...
  2. Terminator_CA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2003
    Vader would definitely win. He can throw objects to Maul while they are in battle.
    [image=http://superwebon.iespana.es/superwebon/paginas/Anteriores/Fotos/09_05_02/Terminator3/TermiantorPQ.jpg]
  3. TomCappa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2003
    For those of you who said Maul would kick Vaders butt, have you not paid attention to the movies???? You must understand, Vader is the most powerful force wielding individual EVER to use the force. Maul was reckless, Vader was resiliant and patient. Heck, even Luke wouldn't have been able to beat him if Vader didn't come back to the light side.
  4. Lord_of_the_Bling Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2003
    star 2
    "For those of you who said Maul would kick Vaders butt, have you not paid attention to the movies???? You must understand, Vader is the most powerful force wielding individual EVER to use the force. Maul was reckless, Vader was resiliant and patient. Heck, even Luke wouldn't have been able to beat him if Vader didn't come back to the light side."

    You need more substance.
  5. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Thanks, Lord of the Bling I was wondering if I was going to be the one that would have to say that. Now let's look at this thing thoroughly:

    darthgrendel

    1. I would assert, once more, that you'r role in events needn't have anything to do with how powerful you actually are. For instance, Oedipus, Hercules, and Jason all take the spotlight in ancient Greek drama, despite the fact that Zeus and others are far more powerful. He could fulfill the Prophecy simply by the effect his interactions as, say, a blue-collar non-Force user with those around him have on the Jedi. Depsite the many connotations the Prophecy set up has to people of the Western world--which you trace out nicely--we can't assume this is the case, as we have no objective measure of power within the Saga, beyond that fact that Yoda and the Emperor are the two strongest Force-users of their respective sides.

    3. You've essentially made my argument for me. Maul's been training for this moment, since he was an infant, Anakin's didn't even realize it was a possibilty for him until age 9. Maul trained in practices especially designed to defeat Jedi and capitalize on their weakness, while Anakin recieves all his training from the Jedi, and simply executes Jedi styles more effectively than his former comrades. While Maul takes down the Jedi alone, at their peak, Anakin takes them out as their Order is falling apart, and with the help of the government of the time. While Maul psychologically staked the meaning of his life on defeating Jedi, Anakin merely does it out of what seems to be teenaged-angst and bitterness (if AOTC is any indication of how EPIII will go). So yeah, it is unfair, cause Maul has a lot more preparation. But then, we're not talking "fair" we're talking about who would win in the end, fair or not. So with that view of things, I think we can both agree the cards are stacked in Maul's favor. Advantage Maul.

    Terminator, Maul can throw things too, or didn't you notice. Watch TPM again, and wonder why a droid randomly goes flying into the air to activate a door panel, and how Kenobi magically ends up falling down into that pit, hanging on for dear life, when just seconds ago he wasn't really even near the edge.

    TomCappa, where you wathcing the Saga? Vader looses to Kenobi, to Luke, and to Palpatine. Lucas says that the Emperor and Yoda are the two strongest Force users alive--Anakin is nowhere in that statement. Anakin has the highest midichlorian count we're told about. But that's only a measure of potential. Itcould very well be that he never even utilized even 1/1000th of that potential, and we would have no way of knowing. And where are you getting that Luke would be able to beat him? Luke, by and large, beats no one. Bringsome evidence please, and at least read the last page of discussion, as it covers thoroughly both sides of hte issues you brought up already.
  6. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    So what you are saying Jabba-wocky mual trained to take out the jedi and kills one and and then is killed by a padwan vader helps kill the jedi order and is only defeted because of his son.

    So if mual was fighting vader in esb and there was no son who would win vader would because he would not be holding back as mual is not his son.

    And the emporer did not baet vader anakin beat and killed the emporer.
  7. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Ah, DarthNeil, good to have a newcomer to the debate. Interesting spin you put on things, but that is, of course not what I was saying at all.

    If you recall, we all know that in EPIII Vader will also loose to Kenobi (which is how he gets his injuries). So since they're both loosing to the same person, not much can really be said about that. Further, as you point out, Luke beat Vader in ROTJ. And if you'd like to dispute that the Emperor killed Vader, please ecplain to us all why Vader did at the end of ROTJ? Because he took his mask off? He did that in ESB, and lived through a whole 'nother movie just fine. Because he got his hand cut off? that happened in AOTC too, and he seemed to be just fine afterwards--as did Luke after ESB. The only other probable cause of death was the Force lightning. Comparatively, "throwing down a hole" is hardly beating someone in to the death combat.

    As to Vader "helping to eliminate the Jedi" we don't know what that means. He could've been a desk-job manager, that simply sent execution squads out on their missions to kill Jedi. Certainly, anyway, we know that it's impossible that he kills all 10,000 of them in single-handed man-to-man combat. We know Maul killed "some" Jedi just like we speculate Vader killed "some" Jedi, so there's really nothing to be said here. Further, I would again stress that Anakin recieved only Jedi training, which was not very well prepared for combating Sith fighting styles. Maul on the other hand, would have trained his whole life to capitalize on Anakin's weaknesses. A good analogy would be the historical battle of Thermopylae. The Persian Immotrals were the best of the best, the most elite plains warriors in the world. However, the Spartan phalanxes had trained in Greece's rocky terrain, and their tactics were different. When the two clashed, the Immortals, even though they were by far-and-away the best of their type of warriors (warriors of the plains), they were not accustomed to the terrain of Greece, and thus they had many flaws that the Spartans were able to capitalize on and inflict tremendous damage on them. This is why, ultimately, the weak and divided Greece was able to drive back Persia, the then world power. In the same way, Anakin might be an Immortal, but he's simply not prepared to fight a phalanx, if you will.

    While Vader might have been holding back against Luke, note that he would have been killed if Luke had followed through on that glancing blow. It was only due to Luke's lack of skill that Vader didn't die: luck essentially. Similarly, we saw Maul beat Kenobi when he held nothing back. However, when Maul let his guard down some (the equivalent of holding back) he was killed, because Kenobi actually followed through on his blow. Thus, they both had the same flaw and nearly suffered the same death; there only difference was their luck in that one specific, respective moment. And luck's certainly not something we can decide a theoretical question like this on.

    Do you have any other arguments? Or any rebuttals, perhaps?
  8. effortless_skill Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    I agree with you Jabba- Wocky on certain things.However i think one thing needs to be really talked about .Maul's prerecongnition skills,which totally suck.Sith pride them selves on that skill, but it really seems to be there weakness(even palpy could not sense when vader had a change of heart).For all of Maul's intense training he allowed himslef to be out thought by a mere padawan.now vader got beat by baiscally a padawan also,but Obiwan does not posses Lukes force ability and skill.Lukes natural feel for the force allowed him to adapt to Vaders style.It was not untill Luke tapped into his dark energies and mirrored vaders anger did luke beat Vader. Obiwan outthought Maul more than he beat him.Even when Obiwan was angry at the death of Jinn, he could not muster up enough agressivness to really harm Maul.when Obiwan got mad what did Maul do?.Maul stripped him of his saber and knocked him onto the ledge. With Maul's overconfidence he was not attuned to the force and could not sense what Obiwan was Thinking .Which he should have known since he was trained to know what jedi think.Also Maul has never fought anyone that possess teh shear might that Vader wields .Vader is extremly powerful in his lightsaber style.it's evident in the way he fights luke in both movies.His swings are hard and strong and keep his foes going backward more than foward.Not once did jinn have maul on his toes in single combat.Maul has never fought anyone that has Vaders anger,hate and agressivness, which he also trumps mauls in those areas too.athlectic wise maul beats vader,however everything else vader beats maul in.Vader has more tangibles than maul does,Thus i feel he would Win.
  9. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    The issue of Maul's precognition, I suppose, I'll give you. I don't think, though, that he was necessarily "out thought." After all, its not as if Kenobi planed in advance to loose his lightsaber and plummet down that pit. It just sort of happened, and he happened to figure out a way out of it after Maul had let his guard down. More luck than anything, really. Further, while pre-cognition might be a good Jedi/Sith skill, I don't think it comes into play much in duels.

    I guess on the issue of Vader' style, it could equally be argued that before that time, Maul had never fought in a lightsaber duel period (with lethal intent). Yet, he's very well-prepared suggesting that his training was fairly comprehensive, and so probably covered a variety of styles. There's no reason why a "strong" style like Vader's wouldn't be included amongst the others Maul was trained to combat.

    I am also not convinced that anger, or hate have anything to do with the outcome of a specific duel. As for aggressivenes, Maul is arguably more so than Vader. Recall how he paced impatiently when the shield was up between himself and Jinn, preventing the fight from continuing. And then compare that to Vader's comparatively calm but steady movement. Maul certainly seems to have the more fierce and visceral mannerisms of the two.
  10. effortless_skill Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    Wocky maul showed agressivness in his beahvior yes,but you still cant say he was more hateful and angry than Vader for those reasons. emtions are not always shown by phyical motion.I know that with vader being teh choosen one and him being the most naturally gifted force user that the movies have seen.Him opening his self up to the darkside energies would allow him to call on a deeper well of emotions than maul.Thus giving him more of an intensity than maul.Also fo rteh record people dont realize that Mauls weapon played a big part in him figting 2 jedi at once.a double bladed staff is the perfect weapon for multiple foes.i am pretty sure people watch kung fu movies and its evident thats the weapon of choice.if you notice when maul's crystal blows out,he was not nearly as effective as he was with 2 blades.single blade comabt takes a greater skill to weild, he was not as fluid in his movements in single blade combat.
  11. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    ahh JW and E_S sharing their vast amounts of knowledge and wisdom.....
  12. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    Ah, DarthNeil, good to have a newcomer to the debate. Interesting spin you put on things, but that is, of course not what I was saying at all.

    Thank you for the welcome.

    If you recall, we all know that in EPIII Vader will also loose to Kenobi (which is how he gets his injuries). So since they're both loosing to the same person, not much can really be said about that. Further, as you point out, Luke beat Vader in ROTJ. And if you'd like to dispute that the Emperor killed Vader, please ecplain to us all why Vader did at the end of ROTJ? Because he took his mask off? He did that in ESB, and lived through a whole 'nother movie just fine. Because he got his hand cut off? that happened in AOTC too, and he seemed to be just fine afterwards--as did Luke after ESB. The only other probable cause of death was the Force lightning. Comparatively, "throwing down a hole" is hardly beating someone in to the death combat.

    In rotj it was luke takeing the mask off his farther that killed him. Now i know that vader took off his mask in esb do you know why he could do that, he could do that because he was in that chamber thing( i do not know what it is called if someone could tell me that would help) that is what alows him to take off his mask.

    As to Vader "helping to eliminate the Jedi" we don't know what that means. He could've been a desk-job manager, that simply sent execution squads out on their missions to kill Jedi. Certainly, anyway, we know that it's impossible that he kills all 10,000 of them in single-handed man-to-man combat. We know Maul killed "some" Jedi just like we speculate Vader killed "some" Jedi, so there's really nothing to be said here. Further, I would again stress that Anakin recieved only Jedi training, which was not very well prepared for combating Sith fighting styles. Maul on the other hand, would have trained his whole life to capitalize on Anakin's weaknesses. A good analogy would be the historical battle of Thermopylae. The Persian Immotrals were the best of the best, the most elite plains warriors in the world. However, the Spartan phalanxes had trained in Greece's rocky terrain, and their tactics were different. When the two clashed, the Immortals, even though they were by far-and-away the best of their type of warriors (warriors of the plains), they were not accustomed to the terrain of Greece, and thus they had many flaws that the Spartans were able to capitalize on and inflict tremendous damage on them. This is why, ultimately, the weak and divided Greece was able to drive back Persia, the then world power. In the same way, Anakin might be an Immortal, but he's simply not prepared to fight a phalanx, if you will.

    Wrong on two points;

    1. we do not know how many jedi there are at the start of the jedi purge and i do not think the line, vader helped to hunt down the jedi means that he was desk-job manager.

    2. Vader was not only trained in the jedi arts he was also trained the the sith arts what did you think he was doing with sid all that time playing chess.

    While Vader might have been holding back against Luke, note that he would have been killed if Luke had followed through on that glancing blow. It was only due to Luke's lack of skill that Vader didn't die: luck essentially. Similarly, we saw Maul beat Kenobi when he held nothing back. However, when Maul let his guard down some (the equivalent of holding back) he was killed, because Kenobi actually followed through on his blow. Thus, they both had the same flaw and nearly suffered the same death; there only difference was their luck in that one specific, respective moment. And luck's certainly not something we can decide a theoretical question like this on.

    Not realy i do not think that vader was lucky he was wearing armor that is why luke could not follow through with his strike.

    To add i now think more than ever that it might be a close duel between vader and maul but i think that vader would win mual was an aprentice not a full lord of the sith like vader. Mual could not do what he was sent to
  13. effortless_skill Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    Jabba, i am not attacking your comments.I have some thing else i wanna say about what you said about maul being more angry and aggresssive in his movements.Most of Maul's anger is shown by his facial expressions,thus we can tell what he is feeling .He does makes alot of menacing faces.However Vader has a mask on ,so we never see his face.he looks like a robot so it's hard to judge his emotions since we cant see his face.Judging by Anakins face when he slaughtered teh tuskens,He can look pretty mean and angry also.also i think anger and aggrssiveness play a big role in fighting, espically for the sith.Thats why form 7 is considered so dangerous cause it borders on those sith traits.the more angry and hateful a sith is,the more power and focus he puts in his fight.anakin can be so hateful and angry that his emotions can be felt hundreds of light yrs away by yoda when he killed teh tuskens.(pain terrible pain )they are so intense that it can cause a jedi's voice to rise from teh grave and tell him no dont do that.Thats some pretty powerful feelings right there.when anakin embraced the darkside the hateful energies must have increased by 10 fold.I doubt he was a desk manager.he didnt slaughter every jedi himself ,but he playe done of the biggest parts in the purdge.i doubt maul could have been as effective as vader in the bringing down of teh jedi order.I am assuming that when he channled all of that energy into something bad.Vader was doing so meerious but kicking of teh likes that not even maul caould do.
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    DarthNeil, as Vader said to Luke when he suggested the same thing: "Nothing can stop that now". So then, Vader was mortally wounded before having his mask removed. That mortal wound could only have come from Palpatine.

    And, further, if Vader truly died just because the helmet was removed, it just drives home the point that he was saved by someone's intervention from what should have been death after he was beat by Kenobi. If Maul, too, had someone intervene on his behalf after the Kenobi duel in TPM, he may well have been able to live on as a cripple too. The point, of course, being, that Vader lost several times in his career, so you can't conclude that because he has a higher midichlorain count (or that just because he was the Chosen One) he would necessarily win.

    As for your other points:

    1. I don't think it goes that far either. But the point is, as you said about the number of Jedi, we do not know. There are a variety of things Vader could've done to earn the compliment "helped hunt down the Jedi." Working at a "desk-job" like making sure all the actual Jedi hunters got there checks cut in a timely fashion among them. Since we don't really know what his role was here, we can't say much about it.

    All we can speculate is that probably, Vader killed some Jedi, which we also know to be true of Maul. So that doesn't amount to any advantage over Vader. Also, it is important to note that Palpatine had equal confidence in both of them, and that being choosen as the Sith to "reveal [them]ourselves to the Jedi" is arguably a greater honor than any assingment Anakin was ever given. To bring it full circle, Palpatine's confidence was justified, in that Maul was clearly "capable" of killing both Kenobi and Jinn. Luck simply happened to have things turn out the other way. Finally, the questio nis not whether Vader was important in hunting down the Jedi, the question is whether he was irreplacably so. After all, we've no reason to believe Maul couldn't have been just as important, and fulfilled with equal skill whatever role Vader might have played.

    2. Vader's primary training and lightsaber skills come from his time as a Jedi. Later, when he became a Sith, he might have picked up a few new techniques, but primarily, he would have been accustomed to a Jedi school of fighting--or at least most comfortable with it. Maul, on the other hand, would have been most comfortable with Sith techniques, having been raised in them since infancy. It is also said that after TPM, Sidious started getting Jedi apprentices (Dooku, Vader) because he no longer had the time to train them from birth, which is what would have been preferrable, according to Lucas. So basically, Palpatine, was relying on their Jedi training to cover a lot of things for him, which would mean Anakin probably stayed relatively close to the combat styles he learned as a Jedi.

    3. I think you are confusing use of the word "lord." Any member of the Sith is a Sith Lord, whether they are the master or apprentice. For instance, Palpatine says to Dooku at the end of AOTC, "Welcome home, Lord Tyrannus" even though Dooku is clearly his apprentice in that film. Similarly, Vader is clearly the subordinate Sith (thus the apprentice) in the OT, while Palpatine is the master. Basically, Maul could have been called Lord Maul too, but it just never came up in the conversations that were had with him.

    effortless its always good to debate with you, whether that's literally along side, or if we are disagreeing. No worries. You make a good point about Vader's expression being limited by his somewhat robotic appearance. Also, it is doubtless that Maul's weapon helped give him an advantage. Nevertheless, that is Maul's weapon of choice, whereas Vader's preference is single bladed, so that there's no reason that wouldn't be the case in a hypothetical duel between the two.

    As for anger and hatefulness, I am of the opinion that while it's very important for a Sith, it doesn't necessarily play a role in an actual duel. That is, its important t
  15. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    ahh but sidious does address maul as lord maul in tpm, i gotta find where now, damn it, i forgot which scene!
  16. rodan70 FanForce Chapter Rep

    Chapter Rep VIP
    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Vader would win, hands down!
  17. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    DarthNeil, as Vader said to Luke when he suggested the same thing: "Nothing can stop that now". So then, Vader was mortally wounded before having his mask removed. That mortal wound could only have come from Palpatine.

    Your right i did not read that part right sorry.

    And, further, if Vader truly died just because the helmet was removed, it just drives home the point that he was saved by someone's intervention from what should have been death after he was beat by Kenobi. If Maul, too, had someone intervene on his behalf after the Kenobi duel in TPM, he may well have been able to live on as a cripple too. The point, of course, being, that Vader lost several times in his career, so you can't conclude that because he has a higher midichlorain count (or that just because he was the Chosen One) he would necessarily win.

    Not true anakin lives because of his hate for the jedi it is not shown in the films what happend to maul at the bottem of the reactor he could of been incinarated if that is true no amount of implants would help mual.

    As for your other points:

    1. I don't think it goes that far either. But the point is, as you said about the number of Jedi, we do not know. There are a variety of things Vader could've done to earn the compliment "helped hunt down the Jedi." Working at a "desk-job" like making sure all the actual Jedi hunters got there checks cut in a timely fashion among them. Since we don't really know what his role was here, we can't say much about it.

    That i will agree with you there is nothing in the films as yet to show that part of vader or mual.

    All we can speculate is that probably, Vader killed some Jedi, which we also know to be true of Maul. So that doesn't amount to any advantage over Vader. Also, it is important to note that Palpatine had equal confidence in both of them, and that being choosen as the Sith to "reveal [them]ourselves to the Jedi" is arguably a greater honor than any assingment Anakin was ever given. To bring it full circle, Palpatine's confidence was justified, in that Maul was clearly "capable" of killing both Kenobi and Jinn. Luck simply happened to have things turn out the other way. Finally, the questio nis not whether Vader was important in hunting down the Jedi, the question is whether he was irreplacably so. After all, we've no reason to believe Maul couldn't have been just as important, and fulfilled with equal skill whatever role Vader might have played.

    Also true but if a padwan could take mual out luck or no luck then he would not have been that good in the jedi purge.

    2. Vader's primary training and lightsaber skills come from his time as a Jedi. Later, when he became a Sith, he might have picked up a few new techniques, but primarily, he would have been accustomed to a Jedi school of fighting--or at least most comfortable with it. Maul, on the other hand, would have been most comfortable with Sith techniques, having been raised in them since infancy. It is also said that after TPM, Sidious started getting Jedi apprentices (Dooku, Vader) because he no longer had the time to train them from birth, which is what would have been preferrable, according to Lucas. So basically, Palpatine, was relying on their Jedi training to cover a lot of things for him, which would mean Anakin probably stayed relatively close to the combat styles he learned as a Jedi.

    Yes that is true but by the time anh comes arouned vader has had 20 years to study and train to be a sith just like maul who i think was ment to be the same age as obi wan in tpm.

    3. I think you are confusing use of the word "lord." Any member of the Sith is a Sith Lord, whether they are the master or apprentice. For instance, Palpatine says to Dooku at the end of AOTC, "Welcome home, Lord Tyrannus" even though Dooku is clearly his apprentice in that film. Similarly, Vader is clearly the subordinate Sith (thus the apprentice) in the OT, while Palpatine is the master. Basically, Maul could have been called Lord Maul too, but it just never came up in t
  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    1. Though Anakin's motivation to live might come from his hate for the Jedi, he in a very real way--as you pointed out--is dependent on that suit for survival. Since he obivously didn't build that suit and put it on himself when he was at the brink of death, someone must have helped him. And as for Maul being incinerated, Star Wars is pretty funny about that kind of thing. After all, if the long-accepted "fell into a lava pit" explanation for part of Vader's injuries is true, then he technically should have been incinerated too. So I would say that the likelihood of either of them surviving was about equal, given that Maul would''ve had someone to help him post-duel like Anakin (presumably) did.

    2. I wouldn't go so far as to say "luck or not luck" since that was the only thing separating Luke's blow in ESB from Kenobi's in TPM. Or, if you prefer, consider this: After killing Maul, Kenobi was immediately promoted to Knighthood, just like Luke was after defeating Vader. So basically, they both lost to padawans as the padawans made the final transition into knighthood. I don't see why this should reflect poorly on either of them, and certainly not on just one and not the other.

    3. This is true, but only if you pull them out of the timeline. After all, if we gave Maul those 20 years too, he would have twice the Sith training Anakin would. Further, even if we don't, his twenty years was more intensive training than Anakin's, since Palpatine had more time to spend with him personally. Its like trying to learn a subject by just reading textbooks on your own versus being tutored by someone with a PhD in the subject. Even though you might get fewer years of training, its very possible that you might still have the edge.

    About rage, I think you and effortless are only right to some extent. While rage does play a big role in Dark Side users, it appears to be more of a long term than immediate thing. For instance, Palpatine was quite happy, gloating about his power when confronting Luke. And yet he was still very much in touch with the Dark Side. Similarly, Dooku didn't seme particularly enraged when he became the only other character in the Saga to use Force lightning. So while those feelings are important to getting in touch with the Dark Side, I doens't seem that they actively have to be the predominant feeling at every moment. Rather, it appears to be a long-term, almost more academic/theoretical thing. And in this sense, Maul's motivation of "getting revenge" is arguably stronger than Anakin's bitterness about an old girlfriend (presumably).
  19. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. Though Anakin's motivation to live might come from his hate for the Jedi, he in a very real way--as you pointed out--is dependent on that suit for survival. Since he obivously didn't build that suit and put it on himself when he was at the brink of death, someone must have helped him. And as for Maul being incinerated, Star Wars is pretty funny about that kind of thing. After all, if the long-accepted "fell into a lava pit" explanation for part of Vader's injuries is true, then he technically should have been incinerated too. So I would say that the likelihood of either of them surviving was about equal, given that Maul would''ve had someone to help him post-duel like Anakin (presumably) did.

    True, anakin is ment to be saved(if you belive the spoilers)by he metal hand, it locks up and keeps him from going all the way in. Mual on the other hand fell all the way down to the bottom so if the power from the reactor did not kill him then the fall would have done.

    2. I wouldn't go so far as to say "luck or not luck" since that was the only thing separating Luke's blow in ESB from Kenobi's in TPM. Or, if you prefer, consider this: After killing Maul, Kenobi was immediately promoted to Knighthood, just like Luke was after defeating Vader. So basically, they both lost to padawans as the padawans made the final transition into knighthood. I don't see why this should reflect poorly on either of them, and certainly not on just one and not the other.

    True again but luke was ready to die at the end of that duel that is why he fell. obi on the other hand controled himself kept carm and then palled of a good move to kill mual. luke did not such thing.

    And yes both luke and obi might have become jedi knights in there duels, the diferance is obi got it for killing a sith and luke got it for getting his ass kicked by a sith lord and living to tell the tale.

    3. This is true, but only if you pull them out of the timeline. After all, if we gave Maul those 20 years too, he would have twice the Sith training Anakin would. Further, even if we don't, his twenty years was more intensive training than Anakin's, since Palpatine had more time to spend with him personally. Its like trying to learn a subject by just reading textbooks on your own versus being tutored by someone with a PhD in the subject. Even though you might get fewer years of training, its very possible that you might still have the edge.

    What if maul was at his peak with nothing left to leran about the sith, that would mean and still dose anyway that vader has both sith and jedi traning to use where mual only has the sith traning.

    About rage, I think you and effortless are only right to some extent. While rage does play a big role in Dark Side users, it appears to be more of a long term than immediate thing. For instance, Palpatine was quite happy, gloating about his power when confronting Luke. And yet he was still very much in touch with the Dark Side. Similarly, Dooku didn't seme particularly enraged when he became the only other character in the Saga to use Force lightning. So while those feelings are important to getting in touch with the Dark Side, I doens't seem that they actively have to be the predominant feeling at every moment. Rather, it appears to be a long-term, almost more academic/theoretical thing. And in this sense, Maul's motivation of "getting revenge" is arguably stronger than Anakin's bitterness about an old girlfriend (presumably).

    But when palps was useing the lightning in rotj he did not look happy then he looked down right angry to me.
  20. _Obi-Wan_Kenobi_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2003
    star 1
    Luke passed his Jedi Trials when he fought Darth Vader in ROTJ. I believe the Jedi Trials are a series of tests meant to prove the "Jedi" inside the Padawans. Temptations that could lure them to the dark side or away from the Jedi code. From my point of view Luke did pass his trials. It is true he got blasted by Emperor Palpatine, but that was another Sith Lord. Luke did give in to the taste of the Dark Side, the same way as Kenobi did in E1, but after he wore Vader down Luke came to his senses. He deactivated his weapon because Jedi are supposed to remain calm and in control of their emotions. That is why Kenobi was going to die in the Phantom Menace, and that is why Luke was going to fail in ROTJ. Kenobi's disorientation was going to be his end, and Luke's was going to be his turn to the Dark Side. To me no matter how I look at it, Luke did defeat Vader. He just didn't have to kill his own father to prove it.

    P.S.- I believe Anakin's demise came from Luke's beating, Palpatine's Sith Lightning, and his own tired existence.
  21. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    i dont think the trials always have to do with the darkside, because how would you do that before episode I when there werent any sith around for 1,000 years?
  22. _Obi-Wan_Kenobi_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2003
    star 1
    This is all just speculation, but I believe the dark side has everything to do with it. It is the greatest danger a Jedi ever faces. It is always there, and it begs those able to hear it to surrender. What greater way to rank someone a Knight, than having the apprentice to prove how he resisted the influence of the dark side. I think that is their struggle.

    Edit: Jedi Code related stuff as well.
  23. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    i dont think the trials always have to do with the darkside, because how would you do that before episode I when there werent any sith around for 1,000 years?

    Yes but the darkside is always there, weather there are sith about or not.
  24. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    DarthNeil:

    1. Well presumably, whoever was going to help him could catch him post fall. Also, seeing as how both he and Kenobi suffered some pretty big falls in TPM (and Anakin did in AOTC) without even seemign phase,d I'm not sure it would be much of an issue anyway. As for Anakin and a metal hand, I'm not sure. I would say though, that I'm trying to stay (relatively) spoiler-free, so while this is fine, if this discussion continues, don't break out anything but the most minor points on me.

    2. I would say Kenobi was clearly angry towards the end of the duel. And he was clearly outclassed regardless. Also, others seem to think Luke beat Vader well enough.

    3. I don't think that scenario is possible since Maul is still Sidious's apprentice. Further, that would mean Sidious has been maxed out for several decades now, and that, if the Jedi have the same learning curve, Obi-wan as an apprentice had the same skill as Yoda at his peak. Which obviously isn't the case.

    While Anakin does have some Sith training, that Sith training is for a shorter duration and in any case less intense than Maul's Sith training (since Sidious had less time to do training). In any case, to integrate the two styles into something that would capitalize on both (like you seem to be suggesting) would require extreme familiarity with both forms of combat. As it is, Anakin just wouldn't have the familiarity with Sith combat forms. It would be like trying to blend Kendo and European fencing, when all you knew about the former is that they used katanas, and the duels were usually more phyiscally intense. You just don't know enough to achieve the right kind of synthesis. So what you'd get instead is someone that's very capable in the Jedi Arts (which, Maul, mind you, has been trained from birth to combat) and some limited familiarity with the basics of the Sith Arts (in which Maul could easily outclass him).

    3. True. But Dooku didn't look particularly angry when he used Force lightning. In fact, he too seemed almost pleased when he was saying how his powers had surpassed Yoda's. The larger question, too, I think, is how much do you think Force-users abilities fluctuate based on their emotions? It would seem rather erratic if Palpatine could go from near zero power because he was happy to something unrivaled in the GFFA of the time just because he was angry Luke refused his offer. Or what about Kenobi in TPM? He can't realistically have cleared away all "negative" emotions by the time he made his final attack on Maul.

    Jedi Trials: I don't think they had to do too much with the Dark Side directly. Seems like you'd risk too many people actually falling to the Dark Side, so that it would hurt more than help you.

  25. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. Well presumably, whoever was going to help him could catch him post fall. Also, seeing as how both he and Kenobi suffered some pretty big falls in TPM (and Anakin did in AOTC) without even seemign phase,d I'm not sure it would be much of an issue anyway. As for Anakin and a metal hand, I'm not sure. I would say though, that I'm trying to stay (relatively) spoiler-free, so while this is fine, if this discussion continues, don't break out anything but the most minor points on me.

    We do not know how long that shaft that maul fell down was it could of been a few hundred meters or it could of been a few hundred miles.

    2. I would say Kenobi was clearly angry towards the end of the duel. And he was clearly outclassed regardless. Also, others seem to think Luke beat Vader well enough.

    True but maul and obi had no ties to each other like vader and luke did. I will say this now if luke was not the son of vader then vader would have done away with luke in esb.

    3. I don't think that scenario is possible since Maul is still Sidious's apprentice. Further, that would mean Sidious has been maxed out for several decades now, and that, if the Jedi have the same learning curve, Obi-wan as an apprentice had the same skill as Yoda at his peak. Which obviously isn't the case.

    Yes but we know that a sith apprentice is not the same as a jedi apprentice, we know that the rule of 2 states that only 2 can there be a master and an apprentice so if maul had lived to reach rotj he would still be the apprentice to sid.

    While Anakin does have some Sith training, that Sith training is for a shorter duration and in any case less intense than Maul's Sith training (since Sidious had less time to do training). In any case, to integrate the two styles into something that would capitalize on both (like you seem to be suggesting) would require extreme familiarity with both forms of combat. As it is, Anakin just wouldn't have the familiarity with Sith combat forms. It would be like trying to blend Kendo and European fencing, when all you knew about the former is that they used katanas, and the duels were usually more phyiscally intense. You just don't know enough to achieve the right kind of synthesis. So what you'd get instead is someone that's very capable in the Jedi Arts (which, Maul, mind you, has been trained from birth to combat) and some limited familiarity with the basics of the Sith Arts (in which Maul could easily outclass him).

    Anakin has had 10 years of jedi traning and 20 year of sith traning. dooku was the same but he was a jedi for longer he semed to merge the two rather well he did take out two jedi.

    3. True. But Dooku didn't look particularly angry when he used Force lightning. In fact, he too seemed almost pleased when he was saying how his powers had surpassed Yoda's. The larger question, too, I think, is how much do you think Force-users abilities fluctuate based on their emotions? It would seem rather erratic if Palpatine could go from near zero power because he was happy to something unrivaled in the GFFA of the time just because he was angry Luke refused his offer. Or what about Kenobi in TPM? He can't realistically have cleared away all "negative" emotions by the time he made his final attack on Maul.

    We do not know how powerful the lightning that sid uses is it might not be blockable if that is the case that would make it more powerful than dookus. And rage has a lot to do with power in rotj when luke was hiding from vader and vader found out that luke had a sister luke went mentle his rage and anger mader him powerful.

    Jedi Trials: I don't think they had to do too much with the Dark Side directly. Seems like you'd risk too many people actually falling to the Dark Side, so that it would hurt more than help you.

    But they would stil know of it and if it is not in the trials then they would do it when they where younger.
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