Maul vs. Vader?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Lord_Windu, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. Well presumably, whoever was going to help him could catch him post fall. Also, seeing as how both he and Kenobi suffered some pretty big falls in TPM (and Anakin did in AOTC) without even seemign phase,d I'm not sure it would be much of an issue anyway. As for Anakin and a metal hand, I'm not sure. I would say though, that I'm trying to stay (relatively) spoiler-free, so while this is fine, if this discussion continues, don't break out anything but the most minor points on me.

    We do not know how long that shaft that maul fell down was it could of been a few hundred meters or it could of been a few hundred miles.

    2. I would say Kenobi was clearly angry towards the end of the duel. And he was clearly outclassed regardless. Also, others seem to think Luke beat Vader well enough.

    True but maul and obi had no ties to each other like vader and luke did. I will say this now if luke was not the son of vader then vader would have done away with luke in esb.

    3. I don't think that scenario is possible since Maul is still Sidious's apprentice. Further, that would mean Sidious has been maxed out for several decades now, and that, if the Jedi have the same learning curve, Obi-wan as an apprentice had the same skill as Yoda at his peak. Which obviously isn't the case.

    Yes but we know that a sith apprentice is not the same as a jedi apprentice, we know that the rule of 2 states that only 2 can there be a master and an apprentice so if maul had lived to reach rotj he would still be the apprentice to sid.

    While Anakin does have some Sith training, that Sith training is for a shorter duration and in any case less intense than Maul's Sith training (since Sidious had less time to do training). In any case, to integrate the two styles into something that would capitalize on both (like you seem to be suggesting) would require extreme familiarity with both forms of combat. As it is, Anakin just wouldn't have the familiarity with Sith combat forms. It would be like trying to blend Kendo and European fencing, when all you knew about the former is that they used katanas, and the duels were usually more phyiscally intense. You just don't know enough to achieve the right kind of synthesis. So what you'd get instead is someone that's very capable in the Jedi Arts (which, Maul, mind you, has been trained from birth to combat) and some limited familiarity with the basics of the Sith Arts (in which Maul could easily outclass him).

    Anakin has had 10 years of jedi traning and 20 year of sith traning. dooku was the same but he was a jedi for longer he semed to merge the two rather well he did take out two jedi.

    3. True. But Dooku didn't look particularly angry when he used Force lightning. In fact, he too seemed almost pleased when he was saying how his powers had surpassed Yoda's. The larger question, too, I think, is how much do you think Force-users abilities fluctuate based on their emotions? It would seem rather erratic if Palpatine could go from near zero power because he was happy to something unrivaled in the GFFA of the time just because he was angry Luke refused his offer. Or what about Kenobi in TPM? He can't realistically have cleared away all "negative" emotions by the time he made his final attack on Maul.

    We do not know how powerful the lightning that sid uses is it might not be blockable if that is the case that would make it more powerful than dookus. And rage has a lot to do with power in rotj when luke was hiding from vader and vader found out that luke had a sister luke went mentle his rage and anger mader him powerful.

    Jedi Trials: I don't think they had to do too much with the Dark Side directly. Seems like you'd risk too many people actually falling to the Dark Side, so that it would hurt more than help you.

    But they would stil know of it and if it is not in the trials then they would do it when they where younger.
  2. maul98td Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Lord Draco finally someone on my side!
  3. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Maul98td, I don't know who or what Lord Raco was a reference to, but judging by your username I'll assume your on my side. So jump on in, I could use the help!

    DarthNeil, to continue.

    1. While its true that we don't know, I'd say that we have to then assume that its equally likely that the fall would kill or not kill him. Either way, the point, basically, is that Anakin didn't really survive the duel with Kenobi by himself either, someone helped him. If someone had helped Maul, he might've survived too.

    2. We don't necessarily know how much Vader was holding back, since we havne't really seen him duel anyone else except Kenobi. And in that duel, he was fighting even more cautiously than with Luke. And seeing as how he was enemies with Kenobi at that point, and clearly wanted to kill him, there was no reason to hold back like that.

    3. Well yes, but that wasn't really my point. If Maul knew "everything there was to know" about the Sith in only twenty years, that would mean imply that the Dark Side of the Force is incredibly weak. Assuming the Light Side is about equally powerful, its just not conceivable that the Force in total could play the role its supposed to in the SW galaxy. Which leads me to conclude that this wasn't the case.

    Also, in general, people rarely know "everything there is to know" in sciences, arts, or religion. There is always greater levels of understanding yet to be reached, new forms to be invented, further refinements to make to your current knowledge, etc. So based on this logic, I would say that the scenario of Maul "knowing everything there was to know" would again be impossible.

    In Dooku's case, I guess we fundamentally disagree. As I saw Dooku's saber style, it was mostly based around a fencing-like style that many people have described as one of the Jedi forms of saber combat--one of the older ones. This is reinforced by the fact that when Dooku and Anakin fight in the dark, their moves are highly similar, suggesting Dooku is sticking close to Jedi combat styles. So pretty much, as I see things Dooku just learned a few Sith powers, threw them out in a way that was disconnected to the rest of his fighting style, and then proceeded to duel like a Jedi. And that's pretty much all I think you can expect from someone whose only learned the Sith Arts for so little time.

    3. But Palpatine's Force Lightnging could easily be more powerful than Dooku's because Palptine is a more experienced Sith to begin with. And further, Force Lightning is an upper-echelon Force power of the Sith. The fact that Dooku was able to tap into it at all without necessarily being "Angry" for me calls in to doubt the importance of active anger at the exact time of usage.

    4. Yeah, probably true. A lot of work with it when they were younger. But I don't think they would actually tempt the trainees to the point where they might actually fall to the Dark Side.
  4. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. While its true that we don't know, I'd say that we have to then assume that its equally likely that the fall would kill or not kill him. Either way, the point, basically, is that Anakin didn't really survive the duel with Kenobi by himself either, someone helped him. If someone had helped Maul, he might've survived too.

    But what you say makes no senes, maul is cut in halve and falls down a long shaft where as anakin is ment to be saved be his hand.

    True anakin would have died if some one hand not put him in the suit. The fact is anakin must have had more importacne to sid and be more powerful maul otherwise why did sid not bring maul back the same way as anakin.

    2. We don't necessarily know how much Vader was holding back, since we havne't really seen him duel anyone else except Kenobi. And in that duel, he was fighting even more cautiously than with Luke. And seeing as how he was enemies with Kenobi at that point, and clearly wanted to kill him, there was no reason to hold back like that.

    I have just seen anh again and it looked to me like they where both holding back, but that could of been becaues the actor who played obi wan was old or the fact that gl did not have that much money. And if you luke at the anh duel and the esb duel they are both differant one is slow and carefuly the other is fast paced and powerful.

    3. Well yes, but that wasn't really my point. If Maul knew "everything there was to know" about the Sith in only twenty years, that would mean imply that the Dark Side of the Force is incredibly weak. Assuming the Light Side is about equally powerful, its just not conceivable that the Force in total could play the role its supposed to in the SW galaxy. Which leads me to conclude that this wasn't the case.

    We do not know how much sid had trained maul, i think sid wanted mual or knew that maul was going to die on naboo.

    Also, in general, people rarely know "everything there is to know" in sciences, arts, or religion. There is always greater levels of understanding yet to be reached, new forms to be invented, further refinements to make to your current knowledge, etc. So based on this logic, I would say that the scenario of Maul "knowing everything there was to know" would again be impossible.

    True but he might have just have been trained to kill jedi if that is so sid must have thought that maul was ready to do the task, we now know how wrong sid was about that.

    In Dooku's case, I guess we fundamentally disagree. As I saw Dooku's saber style, it was mostly based around a fencing-like style that many people have described as one of the Jedi forms of saber combat--one of the older ones. This is reinforced by the fact that when Dooku and Anakin fight in the dark, their moves are highly similar, suggesting Dooku is sticking close to Jedi combat styles. So pretty much, as I see things Dooku just learned a few Sith powers, threw them out in a way that was disconnected to the rest of his fighting style, and then proceeded to duel like a Jedi. And that's pretty much all I think you can expect from someone whose only learned the Sith Arts for so little time.

    True but dooku has been a jedi longer than he has been a sith anakin on the other hand has been a sith longer than he has been a jedi.

    And if you remeber the first time maul atacked qiu gon he said he was trained in the jedi arts so the two styles of fighting can not be that differant.

    3. But Palpatine's Force Lightnging could easily be more powerful than Dooku's because Palptine is a more experienced Sith to begin with. And further, Force Lightning is an upper-echelon Force power of the Sith. The fact that Dooku was able to tap into it at all without necessarily being "Angry" for me calls in to doubt the importance of active anger at the exact time of usage.

    Yes dooku did use force lightning but he was already a powerful jedi master and he did have ten years to train and leran the ways of the sith.

    As for the anger, in rotj when sid is useing the lightning he is angry look at
  5. Darth_Jericho Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 1
    (I'm supporting Maul in this debate, despite my Vader icon.)

    Darth Neil:

    1. How do we know Anakin is meant to be saved by his hand? We don't really know how he's going to be saved, nor do we know how Maul could have been saved after his fall. The facts remain at this: Maul was cut in two and fell down a large shaft. Anakin's injuries after his duel with Obi-wan seem a bit more intense-I do believe George Lucas somewhere stated(I'll look for the quote) that Vader has mechanical arms and legs, which would leave him as a torso. Not to mention the lava bath, if the quote from the OT is true. Basically my point is this-Maul's injuries, while devastating, were not as bad as Anakin's and most likely could have been saved, just like Anakin.

    I think Sidious keeping Anakin has a lot to do with what occurs in EpIII. We've already seen him(Sidious) telling Anakin he doesn't need training, how he'll be the most-powerful Jedi and all that ego-building talk. It's obvious he has been planning to take Anakin as his aprentice for some time. So obviously he would want to keep Anakin around to complete the training...And he has the most Force-potential out of anyone EVER, so it'd be smart of Sidious to have Anakin alive and on his side.

    2. I believe the ANH duel was slower and more thought out because at this point, they both knew what the other was capable of. Vader and Obi-wan could probably guess their opponents move, and thus would try and wait out until the other made a mistake. Whereas in ESB, Vader and Luke haven't met, but Vader knows Luke is out-matched and can utilize his power(with a saber and the Force) moreso than with Kenobi. The difference is obviously knowing your opponent. Maul didn't really know either of his opponents when he faced them at the same time, but he must have known he had the ability to handle both of them. Sidious also must have felt Maul could handle them, since he sent his aprentice to kill them. This leads into your third point...

    3. I doubt Sidious would send Maul to his death. He's busy enough gaining power in the Senate making sure everything goes according to plan there to spend the time to train another Sith. Maul was likely trained his entire life, as Wocky has been saying, thus it's safe to assume Maul has quite an extensive knowledge of the Dark Side and it's powers.

    What exactly would be the point of training Maul simply to have him kill Jedi? Droids did that well enough in AOTC, so why didn't Sidious just use a large number of battle droids to do it? Maul was not just a trained Jedi-killer, he was a Sith Lord, and had he defeated Obi-wan, he most likely would've taken the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith from Sidious by the time the OT rolls around. Besides, Sidious wasn't so wrong about Maul killing Jedi. He offed Qui-gon, did he not? A Jedi Master at that-one older, more experienced and probably stronger in the Force than himself. That says a lot not only about Maul's training, but also of the power of the Dark Side(which George has stated IS the stronger of the two). Maul did that by himself. Vader is yet to-He might in EpIII, but we don't know. The idea of him using Stormtroopers, as Wocky has suggested, is more logical than Vader going out with just his lightsaber to take on EVERY Jedi alive after the Clone Wars.

    Real quick about Qui-gon's "trained in the Jedi Arts" comment-Of course they would call lightsaber dueling Jedi Arts; Sith haven't been around for 1000 years(at least to the Jedi's knowledge) so why would they refer to it as Sith Arts?

    Palpatine's facial expressions/Force Lightning-I personally think it's more of a look of twisted pleasure on his face, mixed with a hatred for the boy calling himself a Jedi. I doubt conjuring up emotions would affect the delivery-Concentration I think plays a larger part in the delivery.

  6. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. How do we know Anakin is meant to be saved by his hand? We don't really know how he's going to be saved, nor do we know how Maul could have been saved after his fall. The facts remain at this: Maul was cut in two and fell down a large shaft. Anakin's injuries after his duel with Obi-wan seem a bit more intense-I do believe George Lucas somewhere stated(I'll look for the quote) that Vader has mechanical arms and legs, which would leave him as a torso. Not to mention the lava bath, if the quote from the OT is true. Basically my point is this-Maul's injuries, while devastating, were not as bad as Anakin's and most likely could have been saved, just like Anakin.

    His hand is ment to lock up so he dose not fall all the way into the lava.

    True but the fact that maul was not saved is a big factor if sid needed him that much then why not do for maul what he did
    for anakin.

    I think Sidious keeping Anakin has a lot to do with what occurs in EpIII. We've already seen him(Sidious) telling Anakin he doesn't need training, how he'll be the most-powerful Jedi and all that ego-building talk. It's obvious he has been planning to take Anakin as his aprentice for some time. So obviously he would want to keep Anakin around to complete the training...And he has the most Force-potential out of anyone EVER, so it'd be smart of Sidious to have Anakin alive and on his side.

    True but at the time sid dose not realy need anakin at the end of ep3 most of the jedi are dead the republic is now the empirer and all those that tried to stop him have either died or have run away. He could have just got another aprentice.

    But then there is the risk of one jedi that could take out sid mabye that is why he keeps anakin arouned he is the one that beats yoda.

    2. I believe the ANH duel was slower and more thought out because at this point, they both knew what the other was capable of. Vader and Obi-wan could probably guess their opponents move, and thus would try and wait out until the other made a mistake. Whereas in ESB, Vader and Luke haven't met, but Vader knows Luke is out-matched and can utilize his power(with a saber and the Force) moreso than with Kenobi. The difference is obviously knowing your opponent. Maul didn't really know either of his opponents when he faced them at the same time, but he must have known he had the ability to handle both of them. Sidious also must have felt Maul could handle them, since he sent his aprentice to kill them. This leads into your third point...

    It also has to do with when it was made and the actors who where doing the duel alec was not that light on his feet so the duel had to be slow, mark on the other hand was young so he could do more.

    Yes maul did know his opponents he was trained to kill the jedi, he was a jedi killing machine. That was his sole perpus in tmp to kill jedi.

    3. I doubt Sidious would send Maul to his death. He's busy enough gaining power in the Senate making sure everything goes according to plan there to spend the time to train another Sith. Maul was likely trained his entire life, as Wocky has been saying, thus it's safe to assume Maul has quite an extensive knowledge of the Dark Side and it's powers.

    What exactly would be the point of training Maul simply to have him kill Jedi? Droids did that well enough in AOTC, so why didn't Sidious just use a large number of battle droids to do it? Maul was not just a trained Jedi-killer, he was a Sith Lord, and had he defeated Obi-wan, he most likely would've taken the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith from Sidious by the time the OT rolls around. Besides, Sidious wasn't so wrong about Maul killing Jedi. He offed Qui-gon, did he not? A Jedi Master at that-one older, more experienced and probably stronger in the Force than himself. That says a lot not only about Maul's training, but also of the power of the Dark Side(which George has stated IS the stronger of the two). Maul did that by himself. Vader is yet to-He might in EpIII, but we don't know. The idea of him using Stormtroopers, as Wocky ha
  7. AAMD11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    I will go for Vader.
  8. masterheiros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2003
    star 1
    I dont care what ANY of you vader fans say... Maul would win. Sure vader is a die-hard ya know with all of his injuries and cybernetics but Maul took on TWO jedi at once. Betcha when vader kills all of them he only frys ONE AT A TIME...
  9. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Darth-Jericho: Whoo! Reinforcements! Good points.

    Darth-Neil, I'm going to start rearranging the point numbering now, if you care. Here goes:

    1. If your hands the only thing above molten lava, you'd still die. And this isn't even confirmed anyway (no more spoilers beyond htis one, please). As for why Maul didn't get saved, it was a completely different situation. First off, Palpatine was becomign Chancellor at that time, so he couldn't just up and leave while being sworn in. Secondly, Maul fought and died in the Theed Palace in the capital of Naboo. You don't think people would be curious if he just strolled in, and nursed a Sith back to health while all those people were there every day? Don't you think they would've been suspicious?

    2. We again don't know if the Jedi die in the inter-trilogy period or in EPIII. And even if they do, it would make your second statement untrue. If he started getting Jedi to convert because he no longer had time to train apprentices from birth, and by the time Anakin is in the duel there are no more Jedi, where would he get another apprentice from? We just said the Jeid are gone and he desn't have time to make non-Jedi into Sith. So Anakin would be his only choice left for an apprentice.

    3. That might've been what he did in TPM, but that movie only covered a few days time span. There are plenty of other things Maul could do for the rest of his life.

    4. To say that Palpatine sent Maul to his death because Maul might take over is ridiculous. The same threat is their with every Sith apprentice. And its actually more pointed with people like Dooku and Anakin, because as former Jedi, and apprentices not raised from birth, they're less likely to be loyal than Maul was. And yet Palpatine doesn't go out of his way to get them killed. In fact, the Sith couldn't even exist if Masters acted this way.

    5. That wasn't his point. He's saying that for the last millenium, the only people that have used lightsabers (that the Order knwos about) are the Jedi. So it probably became habit to call anything involving lightsabers Jedi Arts, regardless of what it might've been.

    6. Yes, hate is a major part of the Dark Side. But concentration and skill are a major part of Force use in general. There are only a few seconds between Palpatine's twisted pleasure and his little bit of hatred. How easily can you go between having a great time to being hate and anger-filled. Can you go to that and bakc again in under five seconds? Because that's about what Palpatine would've had to have done.

  10. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    This argument was present even before I joined these boards.

    I'd get into it again but I have been down this road too many times already.

    Vader wins. And trust me, he's backed by most fans. And most importantly, he is backed up by his abilities. Maul would lose. Easily.
  11. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. If your hands the only thing above molten lava, you'd still die. And this isn't even confirmed anyway (no more spoilers beyond htis one, please). As for why Maul didn't get saved, it was a completely different situation. First off, Palpatine was becomign Chancellor at that time, so he couldn't just up and leave while being sworn in. Secondly, Maul fought and died in the Theed Palace in the capital of Naboo. You don't think people would be curious if he just strolled in, and nursed a Sith back to health while all those people were there every day? Don't you think they would've been suspicious?

    We do not know how far anakin gose into the lava it could only be half way ep3 will tell us what we need to know about that so i will drop that point for now.

    And why could he not its not like he can not go where he pleses it is his home planet and you have just proved my point if maul was that important to sid he would have done all he could to save him bring him back just like he dose with anakin.

    2. We again don't know if the Jedi die in the inter-trilogy period or in EPIII. And even if they do, it would make your second statement untrue. If he started getting Jedi to convert because he no longer had time to train apprentices from birth, and by the time Anakin is in the duel there are no more Jedi, where would he get another apprentice from? We just said the Jeid are gone and he desn't have time to make non-Jedi into Sith. So Anakin would be his only choice left for an apprentice.

    Yes but even if there are still jedi around it would not be enough to take out sid he had 20 year in between ep3 and anh to train an aprentice if anakin was not there, that is plenty of time to trian someone in the wsith ways.

    3. That might've been what he did in TPM, but that movie only covered a few days time span. There are plenty of other things Maul could do for the rest of his life.

    That is true but maul sole perpuse was to kill jedi to shake them up and say hay where the sith and we are back.

    4. To say that Palpatine sent Maul to his death because Maul might take over is ridiculous. The same threat is their with every Sith apprentice. And its actually more pointed with people like Dooku and Anakin, because as former Jedi, and apprentices not raised from birth, they're less likely to be loyal than Maul was. And yet Palpatine doesn't go out of his way to get them killed. In fact, the Sith couldn't even exist if Masters acted this way.

    True but sid need dooku so that he could haver a leader for the seperist and that leader just happens to be a former jedi the army the republic use orderd by a jedi master when ep 3 comes around thses 2 facts will play a big part in the down fall of the jedi.That is one of the resons why sid got dooku to join him in the first place.

    5. That wasn't his point. He's saying that for the last millenium, the only people that have used lightsabers (that the Order knwos about) are the Jedi. So it probably became habit to call anything involving lightsabers Jedi Arts, regardless of what it might've been.

    Yes but when he had time to think about it he knew that it could not of been a jedi as they do not attack each other and there are no dark jedi in the films so he knew that maul had to be a sith.

    6. Yes, hate is a major part of the Dark Side. But concentration and skill are a major part of Force use in general. There are only a few seconds between Palpatine's twisted pleasure and his little bit of hatred. How easily can you go between having a great time to being hate and anger-filled. Can you go to that and bakc again in under five seconds? Because that's about what Palpatine would've had to have done.

    When you are as twisted as sid as hatefull as sid he might be that way all the time but only shows it when he is realy angery.

    It has been great haveing this debate with you you help clear my mind when i am sleepy this thread is great.
  12. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    To add to what i said above, in a duel bettween dooku and maul who do you think would win.
  13. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    You post at night too?

    I know it's always a good kind of cool of/relaxation thing after a long day. And I thoroughly enjoy it. Definetely one of the best threads on the boards.

    Unfortunately, I'm a bit too tired now even for that kind of cool of, so I'll see about posting a response tommorrow, perhaps. Until then, I just wanted to pause for breath from the debate a moment, and let everyone know how much I appreciate all my fellow debaters.
  14. Soulboy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Maul's wicked, but I would have to agree with most of the replies I've read...Vader would win!
  15. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    maul and dooku would be too close to call
  16. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    1. Because unlike in TPM, he was hiding the fact that he was a Sith. Since he would be sure to be seen and recognized in the Theed royal palace, going to save Maul would've have gave him away, thus ruining all his plans. So it was impossible to do for Maul what he did for Anakin.

    2. I disagree about twenty years being enough time, because if that was the case he could've skipped trying to convert former Jedi in the first place--that menas he would've had 30 years since Maul's death. But since that wasn't the case, and he got Dooku instead, I think it shows that Palpatine felt running the Galaxy as Chancellor (and presumably later Emperor, since he has to make even more decisions on his own) didn't leave enough time to train another apprentice. So Anakin was needed, by that logic.

    3.

    4. It's true that that's how things turn out in the end, but that wasn't necesarily Sidious's original plan. In fact, we know there were some changes. Because remember, Sidious originally thought Padme would sign the treaty and let the Trade Federation take over Naboo. And that would've taken away the Federation's motivation for joining the Separatists, even though in AOTC they were a major part of it. So since Sidious's original plans were different than the ones he actually carried through with in AOTC and EPIII, it might've been that his original plans didn't require a political movement at all, and thus wouldn't have required Dooku either.

    5. Right. But we're simply saying that the fact that its called "Jedi Arts" doesn't mean that the Sith don't have a distinctly style/approach to fighting than the Jedi. This goes back to all that talk about how well Anakin could integrate Jedi and Sith fighting styles.

    6. This is, again, true. But if he can have other emotions active under these stronger underlying feelings, then feelings of immediate anger, hate, fear, etc aren't necessary to stir the Dark Side--long-terms feelings do just as well. And if this is the case, then getting revenge for the destruction of the Sith (Maul's given motivation) might cause strogner long-term feelings than Anakin's rather circumstantial disputes with Obi-wan, Padme, etc. Making Maul possibly more able to take advantage of the Dark Side through is emotions.

    Maul v Dooku: This one is a lot harder for me to call. I really don't know. I'll stop by that other thread and see if I can gte any ideas, and post my response there.
  17. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. Because unlike in TPM, he was hiding the fact that he was a Sith. Since he would be sure to be seen and recognized in the Theed royal palace, going to save Maul would've have gave him away, thus ruining all his plans. So it was impossible to do for Maul what he did for Anakin.

    That is true but if he realy needed maul he would have found a way he could have staged an acedent and have the powerplant emptyed of people and then he could have gone for maul.

    2. I disagree about twenty years being enough time, because if that was the case he could've skipped trying to convert former Jedi in the first place--that menas he would've had 30 years since Maul's death. But since that wasn't the case, and he got Dooku instead, I think it shows that Palpatine felt running the Galaxy as Chancellor (and presumably later Emperor, since he has to make even more decisions on his own) didn't leave enough time to train another apprentice. So Anakin was needed, by that logic.

    How old was maul in tpm about 20-25 right, palps when he becomes the emporer will not needed an active fully traned sith to help keep order that is what the clone army is for that is what make the republic the empire not darth vader or darth mual palps needs a fully traind sith so that when he dies he knows that the sith order will still go on. And 20 years is enough time to do that.

    4. It's true that that's how things turn out in the end, but that wasn't necesarily Sidious's original plan. In fact, we know there were some changes. Because remember, Sidious originally thought Padme would sign the treaty and let the Trade Federation take over Naboo. And that would've taken away the Federation's motivation for joining the Separatists, even though in AOTC they were a major part of it. So since Sidious's original plans were different than the ones he actually carried through with in AOTC and EPIII, it might've been that his original plans didn't require a political movement at all, and thus wouldn't have required Dooku either.

    Yes but if it had worked out like that then the separatists would not have been as strong as they where in aotc and there would have been no one to lead them ether maul could not of lead them if he was alive as he is a sith and the trade federation new this. Dooku makes the take over of the rebuplic easyer for palps by making the conflict seem real.

    5. Right. But we're simply saying that the fact that its called "Jedi Arts" doesn't mean that the Sith don't have a distinctly style/approach to fighting than the Jedi. This goes back to all that talk about how well Anakin could integrate Jedi and Sith fighting styles.

    True the sith may or may not have differant styles, but the point is they know that jedi do not go around atacking each other so gin made the most logicol step and called him a sith.

    6. This is, again, true. But if he can have other emotions active under these stronger underlying feelings, then feelings of immediate anger, hate, fear, etc aren't necessary to stir the Dark Side--long-terms feelings do just as well. And if this is the case, then getting revenge for the destruction of the Sith (Maul's given motivation) might cause strogner long-term feelings than Anakin's rather circumstantial disputes with Obi-wan, Padme, etc. Making Maul possibly more able to take advantage of the Dark Side through is emotions.

    Anakin is not just angry with obi wan and padme he is angry at everyone maul might hate the jedi yes but he has been told to hate them anakin has resons for hateing them maul dos not.

    Maul v Dooku: This one is a lot harder for me to call. I really don't know. I'll stop by that other thread and see if I can gte any ideas, and post my response there.

    It is a hard one that is why i brought it here.

    i think the dooku would win we have seen how he delt with 3 jedi i do not think that maul would have done that good in his place.
  18. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    I hope that this thread is not dead.
  19. Darth-Jebus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2003
    I think the sith get more powerful as the movies go. maul being the weakest and vader being the strongest. There is no question maul was an amazing fighter but skills with a saber don't equal dookus overall strength. I think epIII will show that vader is the best with a saber and has the ability to be equal with sidious.
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    1. That would've been incredibly complex, though, and cumbersome to show on film. And further, wouldn't they notice if he stayed in the building? With such a high profile, its just impractical to do anything in such a high profile place.

    2. The issue wasn't how many years he would have to train him. Its would he have time to train him at all. If he felt that, as Chancellor, he wouldn't have enough time to do a "from birth" job, he certainly couldn't of done it as Emperor--when he would've had even more responsibilities. And even if he tried, it would be a less intense twenty years than Maul's was, because Sidious had so much more free time to dedicate to training apprentices then.

    4. I'm saying even more than that, though. I'm trying to say that maybe according to Sidious's original plan, "there were never supposed to be any Separatists at all." Presumably, Sidious was going ot use an entirely different strategy to gain more power, and that strategy probably required Maul.

    6. Hate can be strong even when there's no reason for it. In fact, most hate (bigorty, prejudice, etc) is exactly that, and it's very strong. By comparison, Anakin's hate is triggered by specific events in his relationships with people close to him. If he ever made amends with them (as he kind of does through Luke in ROTJ) its all gone. Further, its more focused on certain people, so it might not be as broadly applicable.

    And as for the Dooku quesiton, I am truly stumped. I'l think about it some more, I guess. But I just don't think there as easily comparable, as say, these two are.
  21. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    1. That would've been incredibly complex, though, and cumbersome to show on film. And further, wouldn't they notice if he stayed in the building? With such a high profile, its just impractical to do anything in such a high profile place.

    Not realy it could of just had sid at the power plant on naboo rasing the 2 halves of maul with the force and then have him do his laugh then cut away to a differant scene.

    2. The issue wasn't how many years he would have to train him. Its would he have time to train him at all. If he felt that, as Chancellor, he wouldn't have enough time to do a "from birth" job, he certainly couldn't of done it as Emperor--when he would've had even more responsibilities. And even if he tried, it would be a less intense twenty years than Maul's was, because Sidious had so much more free time to dedicate to training apprentices then.

    But by the time he had become the emporer he had a load of people who likes him they would help out in the runing of the empire because they thing he is there hero.

    4. I'm saying even more than that, though. I'm trying to say that maybe according to Sidious's original plan, "there were never supposed to be any Separatists at all." Presumably, Sidious was going ot use an entirely different strategy to gain more power, and that strategy probably required Maul.

    True he was ment to use the droid army of the trade federation, but they where so crap they could not even beat a small planet like naboo.

    6. Hate can be strong even when there's no reason for it. In fact, most hate (bigorty, prejudice, etc) is exactly that, and it's very strong. By comparison, Anakin's hate is triggered by specific events in his relationships with people close to him. If he ever made amends with them (as he kind of does through Luke in ROTJ) its all gone. Further, its more focused on certain people, so it might not be as broadly applicable.

    But then the same could be said about maul then, he would have no anger dircited at vader as they are both sith, and if they where fighting to find out which one would rule with sid then i think that vader as well as maul would have to be able to chanel all there hate at each other so that one of them could win.

    And as for the Dooku quesiton, I am truly stumped. I'l think about it some more, I guess. But I just don't think there as easily comparable, as say, these two are.

    I think that vader and dooku are alot alike.

    Also out of all the sith we have seen maul is the only one that acted like a lap dog when it came to sid al the others are like his equal.
  22. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    1. But then the question would come up of why no one saw him using his Sith abilities. And then things would have to get long explaining how he got in while getting everyone else out, and how such a noticeable figure was able to sneak out a body of a recognized criminal. As the Clinton scandal shows, its hard for a politician of that stature to do anything privately, let alone sneak out their apprentice that is an acknowledged enemy of the Republic and part of a grander conspiracy to overthrow it.

    2. Well yes, but the Republic itself was all about people "helping" him run the government. He made the choice to be a dictator/Emperor because he wanted absolute power. That means, by definition, that he makes all the decisions himself. And that was what was too time-consuming to allow for time to train an apprentice from birth. So because he still makes this choice to be the Emperor, this problem isn't alleviated.

    4. But, again, that's a relatively static view of things. After all, given the 30 odd years under which Sidious's plan could've developed post-TPM they might've even gotten a clone army, or better droids. Also, he probably would've gotten more military allies, though perhaps for different reasons, which would've further strengthened his army. Further, I would point out that the Federation did beat both the people of Naboo and the Gungans. They only lost because of Anakin's personal intervention.

    6. True enough. But this doesn't really help us figure out who won.

    7. They all acted like lap-dogs, with the exception of late-ESB/late-ROTJ Vader. At least Dooku and Maul enjoyed there roles. Vader in early-ROTJ spent a lot of time talking about how he would like to change but how the Dark Side and the Emperor were too powerful to defy. As for how independent they were, it was a reflection of the various tasks we saw them carrying out in each movie. But even still, the one who appeared most independent (Dooku) never did anything outside of Sidious's commands. As for Vader, he was constantly ignored and regarded with disdain by Tarkin and other Moffs. And in ESB, his search for Han was horribly ineffective. So I think that they all, to some degree played lap-dogs, while at the same time they were all very capable.

  23. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    I hope that this thred is not dead.
  24. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I think it might be, unless you have a response to my last post.
  25. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    I dont care what ANY of you vader fans say... Maul would win. Sure vader is a die-hard ya know with all of his injuries and cybernetics but Maul took on TWO jedi at once. Betcha when vader kills all of them he only frys ONE AT A TIME

    And thing about taking two Jedi is that Maul lost to the Padawan Learner. I would tell more to support this, but then I would be revealing Episode III spoilers.
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