Maul vs. Vader

My gosh, i need to get away from JC, my life passing before me...

I agree that in ANH and after, Vader/Obi/Luke were not supposed to be in their prime and so would not fight like they are. My point was that a lot of people try to argue who would win the battles (maul vs. vader, dooku vs. vader, maul vs. luke, etc.) but we can't really compare because the film fight styles were a lot different back in the 70-80's and so our image of the jedi's abilities in the OT is completely different then it is in the PT.

 

Maul could not beat Obi-Wan because of one simple factor. He could not reach him and don't say he could have force pushed him. The only reason it worked early was that Obi was not expecting it. Maul lost plain and simple.

Also Vader is Anakin. Vader is not the suit. Lucas has said that Anakin becomes Vader before he puts on the suit. Also in E3 Lucas will have Vader fight in the suit more than likely just for the simple fact that that will be a huge draw.

 

'How come Luke kicked his ass in ROTJ? '

Vader did not want to destroy his own son, so he let him win.

 

" Maul could not beat Obi-Wan because of one simple factor. He could not reach him and don't say he could have force pushed him. "

He would not have force pushed him. He was chopping away at the railing overtop the pit with his lightsaber. That railing would have eventually fallen and knocked Obi-Wan off the perch he was hanging onto.

And don't *YOU* tell me that Obi-Wan would have hung on forever, because his muscles would have eventually tensed up.

Had Obi-Wan jumped back up without a lightsabre, Maul would have sliced him in half in two seconds.

So Maul *DID* have Obi-Wan beat! Case closed.

 

" Vader did not want to destroy his own son, so he let him win."

So, by that logic, Vader should have let Luke win in ESB. Give me a break!

Did you even SEE the fight in ROTJ?!? Luke was kicking his ass! He had turned to the Dark Side, and was angry and powerful. Vader was overwhealmed, stumbling back and unable to counter Luke's sheer force of will, power and determination.

 

Saber to saber? What the heck is that? They are Force users... they CAN'T just do sabers. Maul is so good because he HAS the Force. If the two fought, Vaer would destroy Maul. While Maul came at Vader with his double-saber blazing, Vader would block once, lift Maul into the air, then slice him up.

The people have spoken

 

"Maul could not beat Obi-Wan because of one simple factor. He could not reach him and don't say he could have force pushed him. The only reason it worked early was that Obi was not expecting it. Maul lost plain and simple."

Lol, nope. He could've knocked Obi-Wan down in a number of ways, 1st of all he could have reached him with his saber, 2nd there was a number of items he could've thrown at him causing him to fall, 3rd force
pushing someone barely hanging on has a good chance of working, 4th if he had smashed Qui-Gon's saber, Obi wouldn't of lived to train Anakin.

"Also Vader is Anakin. Vader is not the suit. Lucas has said that Anakin becomes Vader before he puts on the suit. Also in E3 Lucas will have Vader fight in the suit more than likely just for the simple fact that that will be a huge draw."

Yes, but he won't be slaughtering Jedi or anything before he's in the suit, he'll most likely get challenged by Obi-Wan and end up taking a very long fall into lava or something dangerous thanks to Obi-Wan.

And no, Vader in the suit won't fight, Lucas already said he'd barely appear in it, with the little time given I doubt he'll have a chance to have an important fight.

 

"Vader did not want to destroy his own son, so he let him win."

'So, by that logic, Vader should have let Luke win in ESB. Give me a break!'

I'm not buying it, Anakin has a midichlorian count of 27,700! Even Yoda only has 17,700.
Vader has about 40 years of experience behind him, Luke has what? 2? and a midichlorian count of 12,500, granted Vader lost some of those midichlorians when he got injured but it's still more than Luke.

Plus Anakin has a soft spot for his son, i'm certain he could of found an advantage on Luke and killed him if he wanted to. But he was in front of the Empereor and he was in a bind so he used a mostly defensive fighting style.

 

JP- Don't use the midichlorian counts from supershadow.com, they're false. And you can't lose midichlorians when you lose limbs because your count is concentration per cell, not in your whole body. So getting injured wouldn't hurt the count, that list is 100% bull****. Not to mention it has EU characters in it.

And even then, midichlorian count doesn't determine power and skill, it determines potential.

 

I think this whole idea of midiclorines should be dropped. It destroys the whole mystique of the Force that it's completely democratic and that anyone can be a jedi if they hold the deepest commitment.

 

Exactly, midichlorians demonstrate potential.
Wouldn't you agree Anakin Skywalker has the highest midichlorian count in history.
And by your definition Vader still has all his midichlorians. I think it's obvious that with all of Vaders years of training and experience he could of easily bested Luke in a lightsaber duel.

I just don't think it's possible for Luke, who has less potential for power and so little training be able to beat a child of the force.

 

a) I don't think Anakin ever had the chance to meet his potential. When he was physically fit, he was lazy and didn't train to his potential.

b) When he finally gives in to the dark side, and is getting powerful, ready for his training with Sidious, Obi-Wan screws him up physically. Making him the mental force choke monster he was during Episodes 4-6.

c) I don't think he could've beaten Luke at the end of ROTJ. Before Luke was pissed he easily could've pierced his arm, knocked his saber down, or something along those lines. Luke has a sloppy crazy baseball bat saber stance. But once he went into his Dark Rage Vader couldn't keep up. Luke was swinging like crazy, he may be an untrained boy, but Vader, who is far passed his physical prime, a cripple actually, couldn't keep up with those blows, and ended up bludgend into defeat. I think many older skilled, but passed their prime Jedi would have a problem defeating Luke in that rage. The masters like Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and others could've probably held up, but I'm sure some couldn't

d) You say Luke had much less potential for force, but you're still using that supershadow list (which is false). Luke grew very quickly for a Jedi, he may not have had Anakin's midichlorian count, but I assume he had a massive one, Yoda even sensed how strong the force was with him.

 

maul, positive. 5 minutes and vader would be in half on the floor.

 

i agree with darth java.Vader got defeated by a half-ass jedi with little to know combat skills what-so-ever.Maul defeated two jedi in there prime by himself and killed one at that.The bottom line is that maul is better just face it

 

Read the Starwars Tales Comic that features the fight between Maul and Vader, and all will be made clear:

Vader owns Maul.

 

Darth Vader was the last Dark Lord.

Maul was just some Sith apprentice.

Vader has more experience, as a Jedi and a Sith.

Maul has no separate identity outside of Darth Sidious.

Maul shows great skills and tremendous ability but he's simply not in Darth Vader's league.

Vader would defeat him.

All too easy.

 

This is ridiculous. Vader would destroy Maul. It even says at the official site...

Palpatine instituted a military build-up unprecedented in galactic history. He created the New Order, a Galactic Empire that ruled by tyranny. The Jedi Knights, his biggest threat, were extinguished by his greatest dark side pupil: Anakin Skywalker, who had become Darth Vader.

Greatest dark side pupil? If Maul was so great, why does it say that Vader is Palpatine's greatest pupil? Count Dooku would be able to destroy Maul. I think calling Obi-Wan a old man, and Luke the untrained boy against the cybornetic man is going to have to be taken back. Obi-Wan in ANH wasn't nearly as old as Count Dooku and Dooku was very powerful. Vader was reponsible for the Jedi purge. Vader's true power will definatly be seen in Episode III when he destroys guys like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, and Ki-Adi-Mundi.

As for Luke, I'm sure he could of gave Maul a run for his money. I'm talking ROTJ Luke. Luke was special and I'm sure his midi-chlorian count rivaled his father Anakin.

Or you can look at it this way, Obi-Wan defeated Maul, and Vader defeated Obi-Wan.

In any effect, Vader would show Maul who's boss. Vader could manipulate the Force around him and frustrate Maul.

 

Maul would mangle Vader.

 

Hmmmm... Vader would probably win through slyness or cunning or something. He's no Sidious but he seems a bit smarter than Maul, who definitely isn't the brightest bulb in the hardware store.

 

Come on! It took him, what, 10 minutes+ to finish off an old man only a few years away from the old folks home?

You underestimate Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman. You're also talking talking about an old man who was able to dismember an armed Aqualish without even breaking a sweat.

And being old isn't synonomous with "slow". Dooku's a pretty old geezer, too, and he whooped Anakin and Obi-Wan's asses single-handedly, and held his own against Yoda (who, BTW, is also "old", and still kicks major butt!).

Excuses, excuses...

It's true, though. Palpatine had no intentions of having Luke killed until Luke finally flat-out told him that he wasn't going to turn to the dark side.

Obi-Wan was on the verge of becoming a jedi knight at that point. Also, Maul effectively had him beaten, over the ledge. He got cocky. All he has to do was smash Qui-Gon's lightsabre and it would have been game over for Ben.

You're right. Maul was overconfident. And therein lies his weakness. Maul would be so overconfident in his victory that Vader would take him by surprise and slice him, dice him, and burn him to a crisp. No more Maul!

Besides, he had fought TWO JEDI AT ONCE, and killed a jedi MASTER (Qui-Gon) along the way. Could Vader have done that? NOOOO

No, Vader just wiped out the entire Jedi Order.

Maul would kick Vader's ass in 2 seconds flat, and you know it

You take that back!

 

Maul would whop Vader

 

Even Count Dooku would whoop Maul.

 

This is ridiculous. Vader would destroy Maul. It even says at the official site...

Palpatine instituted a military build-up unprecedented in galactic history. He created the New Order, a Galactic Empire that ruled by tyranny. The Jedi Knights, his biggest threat, were extinguished by his greatest dark side pupil: Anakin Skywalker, who had become Darth Vader.


I've heard you use that quote quite a few times now, and it really doesn't say much.

a) Anakin was his greatest pupil at the time, Anakin was on his way to becoming more powerful than any Jedi, until he had his run in with the Dark Side. Just because at one time he was his greatest pupil doesn't mean he was more powerful than Maul at all times.

b) The quote just comes from someone on the official site, it doesn't therefore mean that Anakin was the strongest of all Dark Siders.

As for Luke, I'm sure he could of gave Maul a run for his money. I'm talking ROTJ Luke. Luke was special and I'm sure his midi-chlorian count rivaled his father Anakin.

a) Luke couldn't give Maul a run for his money, with that horrid techinique, and wild swings I'm fairly Maul could see through it and stick a Saber through his chest, he only had an advantage on Vader because Vader is a cripple, as GL puts it.

b) Special and well trained are two very different things.

c) He could have 25 billion midichlorian counts for all we know (althought I assume his are high, but not close to the Chosen One's) and it still wouldn't matter. Midichlorians doesn't = skilled Jedi. All they show is potential. I liked the idea of midichlorians, but so many people missunderstand them, bleh.

Or you can look at it this way, Obi-Wan defeated Maul, and Vader defeated Obi-Wan.

No, you can't look at it that way. Obi-Wan got beaten by Maul, Obi-Wan was toast, Maul just got cocky and lost. Had he destroyed Qui-Gon's Saber, pushed Obi-Wan down the shaft, or in someway taken Obi-Wan out early, Maul would've been victorious, he just lost because his poor judgement. Also, Vader in his strongest form (Episode 3 Anakin with the Dark Side) lost to Obi-Wan, and was put in that suit. Also, according to the annotated screenplays Obi-Wan was strong enough to go blow for blow with Vader in ANH, but chose to sacrfice himself because Lucas had no way to develop such an important character after the fight.

In any effect, Vader would show Maul who's boss. Vader could manipulate the Force around him and frustrate Maul.

While there fight may be close, Vader will no way find Maul to be an easy opponent. I doubt doing some fancy tricks with the force will work as well on a highly trained Sith as they did a weak barely trained padawan.

 

Red-Talon, the fact that Anakin/Vader is Palpatine's greatest dark side pupil doesn't faze you tells me how ignorant you are. Vader was Sidious' most powerful pupil ever. What does that tell people? It should tell you that Vader is stronger and better then Maul. You said Vader was Palpatine's greatest pupil at that time. What that makes me think is Palpatine's only pupil was Vader at that time because he only had one pupil at a time. Just like Dooku was his only pupil at that time, and Maul was his greatest pupil at that time. Remember there is always a master and a student. "Always two there are, no more no less," as Yoda said in TPM. Again, it means that Vader was Palpatine's greatest ever, not at that time.

Let's look at it this way. Maul lost to a Padawan. A Padawan for crying out loud. Vader no way would lose to a Padawan Obi-Wan. Vader defeated Obi-Wan in ANH. Personally I would rather face the Padawan Obi-Wan then the Obi-Wan in ANH. You are going to be thinking twice when you see the power Vader has in Episode III destroying the Jedi ranks.

Here's another thing, when Obi-Wan (not a Padawan) defeated Anakin in Episode III, Anakin wasn't a Sith Lord yet. But when Vader faced Obi-Wan for a rematch on the Death Star, Vader was a Sith. Calling Vader a crimple meant that his physical fresh and blood body was crippled. But he became cybornetic and stronger. If you really have any hope to prove Maul has a shot at Vader, you better hope Vader doesn't do squat in Episode III.

Here's another thing. Count Dooku would school Darth Maul. Yoda would put Maul out of his misery very quick.

 

There's an old thread on this same topic somewhere around here.

Vader would stomp him sensless. It wouldn't even be a fight. Mentioning that chumps name in the same sentence with Vader is an insult. The guy was killed by a freakin' padawan...the same padawan that Vader kills years later as a Knight!

Maul's a complete loser IMO...I'm surprised he made it safely through the "energy doors" in TPM!