May the Force be with you- A Paranormal Discussion.

Do you have any good sites on the Hologram Paradigm? Just Curious.

Yep. I was trying to start a thread, but I am totally incapable of writing a nice 2-3 paragraph intro to this complex theory. But I can easily provide some links for in-depth study.

1. A very simple, short, straightforward intro to the basic concepts in plain English. From Disinfo.com. Plus, lots of good links at the bottom.

2. This is from a site about UFO's - how the HP could explain them. But it's still a great intro to the overall concepts of the HP - especially the first few paragraphs, where it explains the holographic nature of the mind, and how you must question sensory perception and consciousness' role in empirical study before taking empirical results as the final word on anything. The New Paradigm of Mind and Matter (The bit about how neurons fire was of particular personal interest to me, as the chemical depression I've been diagnosed with is a case of neurons failing to fire enough seratonin, but I have found that treating the seratonin lack causes me to lose my talents! So the holographic view of the mind could hold answers for a very real problem for me.)

By the way, here's a very intriguing paragraph from this article: Physicists have recently discovered that on deep subatomic levels, the thoughts of the scientists and technicians influence the particles. The atom has also been broken into small enough pieces where the particles will not split any further. They just turn into energy. But what is the basic energy that all matter is made of? What if this energy is consciousness - frozen "thought," perhaps?

3. Great overall intro, which you can find all over the web. It's anonymous, almost as if it simply bubbled up out of the internet of its own accord. Spooky! A long, anonymous article - very good intro to the whole topic

As I find others, would you like me to psot links to them? Or post links? I think I'd rather psot links. That sounds like fun.

A recent experiment showed that electrons can "communicate". Instantaniously. Whether they are 2 feet away or 12 billion miles away from eachother. I will try and research this further.

Qui-Rune, see my third link - that was the experiment that prompted Bohm's theory of the hologram.

By the way, several scientists sort of simultaneously came up with the hologram paradigm, separately (wow, dig that alliteration). This, to me, is further indication of the holographic nature of the universe!



Besides, Schumacher said, teleportation would "kill you and take you apart atom by atom so you could be reassembled at the other end, one hopes. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me."

Why does this paragraph have me laughing hysterically? Poor Schumacher's just uptight. Teenagers would line up and pay out the nose for this service. "Kill me and take me apart atom by atom and slop me all back together again in Chicago? Cool! I'll be, like, resurrected, dude!"

 

Treecave,

Holographic storage. That sounds very possible. Our DNA is holographic, so it makes sense. We just have various areas of the brain that are entirely dedicated to a certain type of holographic storage.

 

TreeCave,

Thank you for the links. VERY informative.
(im still reading)

This is what I have been saying for years.

I call it the Force. We and all matter are part of it. Part of the whole. Bohm called it the "implicate order"

VERY COOL.

Sometimes you just have to stop and smell the roses. But what is making me think I can smell the rose? What puts that "scent" into your mind?

In other words...what is the reality of our perception?

I can relate to the wave formulas that they refer to....the frequencies.

Now, let me lift that rock with my mind...

 

...and Jesus said, " I am the way, the truth, and the light,..."


After lifting that rock try walking on water, but avoid drowning on dry land.
Just take a nice swim through the yard and stop to smell the color 9.



Does make one stop and think about possible ramifications of the term
enlightenment.

 

Well, what initially attracted me to the HP was the one thing it had in common with Buddhism, which is the one thing Buddhism has in common with almost every religion: this world is an illusion.

Or, in Christian terms, perhaps you would say this world is not the final world.

In some sects of Wicca, you might say this reality is just one plane of reality, and there are others that are at least as important.

Either way, the idea that this world is not as fixed and final as it appears not only can be found in most religions and philosophies... it explains all those "little exceptions" to absolutely every rule. We tend to quantify them as insignificant and ignore them (not a bad rule for daily living), but as we all know, sometimes very tiny changes make incredible differences. If existence HAS any meaning beyond you're born, you eat, you die, it's worth understanding the little exceptions better, if we can do so without spending tons of time and energy on it. The HP may offer this possibility.

 

Ok, here is my paranormal experiences......


On a personal level, I have experienced some types of clairvoyance. so often in fact, I have learned to write down and date my premonitions....I do not know how, why and when they are going to come. They just do, usualy in the form of a dream, and very often just in 'feelings'. There have been two exact incidnets in my life, that I have pin pointed exactly what was going to happen.

I was 7 years old when I told my mom that Elvis was going to die in a couple of days. I was off about a week, he dies, my mom freaks.

When I was 16, I dreamt about the space shuttle, it was a horrid....horrid dream. To the point where to this day, I feel that I know EXACTLY what happened to the astronauts inside the ship. Again, told my mom, and low and behold, 2 months later.....

No, I had no premonition about sept. 11, but I knew my father in law was going to kill himself....I don;t think that I will ever get over the guilt I feel with that....

as for ghosts....my grandmothers house is frequented by what I believe to be poltergiests. Rocking chairs have rocked by themselves, dogs collars have 'flown' down the hall way, and cups have been thrown through the air. A thrown cup usually does not go around a corner, but this one did.

nothing has happened for years in the house, in fact, once all the grandchildren grew up, everything stopped. Every one of us in the family have seen something in this house. All ages...we can't be ALL nuts can we??

This is my story, you have no reason to believe it, and I know that. I am a very skeptic person...I have questioned myself many a time, and I can not rationally begin to understand these happenenings.

Have fun!!

 

Welcome to our world Darthmomm.

We all pretty much beleive in the paranormal, so feel free to share.
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Darth Brooks,

Does your post mean you believe in the Hologram Paradigm? Or where you being fececious?
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I am intrigued by this thought...

That reality is nothing but energy waves and frequencies and our body acts as a reciever (via senses) and our brain is the amplifier (via, thoughts, sensations and memories)

Interesting.

 

DarthMomm,

Very interesting stuff. That's our first poltergeist story, I believe.

I'm a skeptic by nature. I was taught to be skeptical about so-called facts, and scientific studies, and so on. Lo and behold, Columbus didn't discover America, and early reports in the 80's indicating sunbathing cures cancer were a bit wrong!

So when you're truly, sanely skeptical, I think you WILL find yourself unable to dismiss events that you see with your own senses. Yes, you might be insane - perhaps you're in a mental ward and your whole life is an undifferentiated schizophrenic delusion. But if that's the case, there's not much you can do about it, so you kind of HAVE to trust your senses if you're to live at all.

I think it would be far more irrational to dismiss the evidence of your senses out of hand than to accept that something weird happened, even if you can't be sure what it was. It's good to remember you can never be sure what it was, too.

The person who insists a UFO is from aliens and the person who insists there cannot be aliens are both being irrational. The person who says, "I saw this thing, and these skinny grey guys came out that I think were probably aliens" is being perfectly rational. And if it turns out to all have been a hoax, he won't still insist it HAD to be aliens.



Or where you being fececious?

Ewwwww.... it's "facetious". But I think fececious is more accurate with some people. Hehehehe. LOL!

 

Can we harness it? IMHO, not quite in the way SW envisions us doing so, at least not what I've seen thus far.

Tibetan Buddhist Monks have been able to achieve some pretty supernatural abilities while meditating. Supposedly, from one of my teachers I heard that there is a sect of Buddhist Monks that do not eat, yet survive. I think they eat once a year if that. They are in a deep state of meditation most of the time and survive by breathing.

I find it interesting that two things that traditional science cannot explain are consciousness and light. In fact, Einstein made a comment on how for the rest of his life he wanted to ponder on what light was. How related are these two? Anyways, right now, I'm working on altered states of consciousness through meditation and breathing. I have a teacher who is guiding me into this area. It's been a very interesting experience so far...

Treecave, thanks for the links on "hologram paradigm" I'm looking forward to reading them...

 

Naccha,

I have been practicing meditation for some time, but never had a teacher.

I would love to hear some of your insight and experience.

Oh, the HP links are VERY good reading.
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TreeCave,

I figured you would be the only one to catch that...My humor is rather dry at times.

(fececious....lol)

 

its like jonathan livingston seagull. there are worlds just different existences. if christ went to a physical heaven he would still be traveling in space to reach it. it is another plane we cannot yet see.

 

Qui,

"Darth Brooks,
Does your post mean you believe in the Hologram Paradigm?"

I tend to hold to the idea we, humanity, with all of our contemporary technological successes have still not graduated from preschool in regard to understanding the nature of the universe in which we conduct this present life. To degrees I am in agreement with components of the holographic paradigm, but really would need to contemplate it a little more to form any opinion one way or the other, so I guess you could say at this juncture the verdict is still out. But, I definitely think there is something to it, as light is requisite to life, over all.

When I visually imagine something, to some extent, the bio-electrical energy within my mind is still relying upon some form of light to present an image, as without light there is no image, or the illusion of an image.

If I look at the creationary accounts of the Holy Bible in a parallax approach to this subject there are some very evocative ramifications in verses dealing with light;

Gospel of John:

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was mad."

"In him was life; and life was the light of men."

"That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

The significance and relevance to the current topic should be immediately apparent. To further tie it in with areas of discussion, we certainly can not see a ghost without the utilization, or manipulation, of light, and in regard to the demonic, scripture warns to be wary and test the spirits, that the diabolical can and will, "appear as angels of light." If one superimposes, or translates the word "light" with "God," to whom it was referring, we have an aspect of the creative agency of this universe that makes one pause to speculate.

Let's look at the initial creative account given in scripture:

Book of Genesis

The very first verse in the Holy Bible/ Torah states;

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Keep in mind that...
beginning=TIME
heaven =SPACE
earth =MATTER

So we are given 3 foundational requirements for physical existence, space, time, and matter.

God =INFORMATION, intelligence, data, design.
created =ACTION, motion, intent


What we have here is a picture of all the materials, the necessary elements, brought forth for construction purposes.


In verse 2:

"And the earth was without form, and void;..."

This reemphasizes that the term "earth" is not referring to our planet, but is referring only to raw matter, as it was "void."

(Con't. verse 2)
"...and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

The "deep" is not referring to water, but would be the unfilled expanse of space. We know it is separate because of the continuation of the verse...

(Con't. verse 2)
"...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

A couple of things to note here. Firstly, the "Spirit of God" is an interesting phrase, denoting it was not the totality of God, but a component of God. Considering that the universe is the product of God and not vice versa, it is necessary for a transcendental God to work in the universe, but is not subject to it, being greater than the created. The universe cannot contain nor control God, this is logically and philosophically sound.

Next, look at the expression, "face of the waters." This is important. It isn't "water" per se, but the "face" of the water, the "appearance of water," an aspect or component of "water," or superficial elements, which we may conclude as hydrogen and oxygen . This isn't unimportant as will be seen in verse 3.
Keep in mind that the recipients of the original text predated the origination of the periodic table of elements.

(Let me reemphasize, that if anyone cares to check, you will observe that in Genesis it is in subsequent verses that we have the creation of the planet earth and it's H2O. It is only in this context Genesis makes any sense. I'm not "reinterpreti

 

Naccha, surviving on breathing alone even sounds scientifically viable. For the most part, we eat to respire, anyway... if you can get your cells to energize on oxygen without the middleman, you wouldn't need to eat.

Another thing I might bring in when we've all digested the HP a bit is that Lucas' midi-chlorian "how the Force speaks to you" idea turns out to have scientific basis after all. Apparently it's established that mitochondria and other bacteria that live symbiotically in us communicate with each other and with our cells, turning on dormant genes to give us disorders and symptoms of aging - apparently, this is basically why we age and die. In theory, if we could divorce our species from these symbionts, we might be able to live almost indefinitely. But the method of communication employed by the mitochondria & friends can also affect our thinking, via our brain cells and neurons. So the idea that mitochondria tell us things is not that far out. And if they are the only reason we age and die instead of being immortal...well, if you're religious at all, the idea that they're whispering the will of God to you kinda follows. If you're not religious, I think you still have to regard age and death as major, major contributors to what we are and our potential, so it's hard NOT to rank that pretty high on the scale - like a god who has plans for us.


Qui, I figured the misspelling was on purpose. Very good pun!

 

"I stink therefore I am"

Good One, as usual!!!!!
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Darth Brooks,

In reference to your reference to Genesis...

(KnightWriter: I know this is off topic...I'll be brief)

To not take it literal, would be hypocritical in my opinion. The interpretations would hold sturdier ground if it read:

In the beginning of Time, God created Space and Matter.

But it doesnt.

This has ALWAYS been an argument between Evo's and Creo's. I for one would have always bashed a Creo for not taking the Bible literal, and attempting to change the interpretations, etc. However...

I see nothing wrong with a Creotionist using the Bible as a stepping stone to a broader understanding. It's not like we Evo's stopped with "The Origin of Species". Science is nothing BUT a series of stepping stones.

Someday I see a MAJOR convergence.
Anyway....back to topic:

TreeCave: you brought up a VERY interesting point about the human "Time-Clock". It's almost like it was intentionally placed within us, Huh? Interesting.

 

Byrdnest,

"its like jonathan livingston seagull. there are worlds just different existences. if christ went to a physical heaven he would still be traveling in space to reach it. it is another plane we cannot yet see."


Nit picky me.

I certainly believe there are various dimensions to life.

I don't believe in the idea that there are infinite multi-verses containing every possibility, since one possibility is a universe from which there is no multi-verse, which therefore logically nullifies the possibility of infinite possibilities in an infinite multi-versial sense. I don't think that's what you were intimating, but...I just added it. ( Another incidental, "universe" means "one-word/one -verse.")

The only real problem I have is with, albeit no doubt meant harmlessly, the straw man depiction of Christ.

The best source we have for investigating the person, identity, and history of Christ would be the Holy Bible, and the limitations you attributed to Him are not according to what we are told of His identity, and, by extension, His abilities.

In the narrative we are informed Christ physically left, resurrected bodily, not spiritually. Christianity has absolutely no meaning if the physical bodily resurrection did not occur.

He did not leave on a shuttle, no, nor did He hitch-hike aboard an alien craft, thus I don't see any viable interpretation to your remarks which ignore the omnipotent and transcendental nature of God. I don't think you can outline the extent of nature of such power, or its limitations. It is beyond all of us.

You seem to be ascribing contemporary technological know-how to Deity. That at the very least is premature. 100 years from now our current technology will be something akin to the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk as compared to the NASA space shuttles, or more likely to an even more dramatic extent with the exponential snow-balling of technology.

You've used an analogy expressing a limitation upon God-head that I don't believe Richard Bach would agree with, as his character Don Shimoda was intended to teach us to look beyond seeming limitations of our perceptional paradigm of the nature of reality.

Incidentally, I enjoyed Jonathon L. S. and Illusions, but feel Bach left his best days behind with those two titles. Neither here nor there, just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. But I'll accept a rebate.

 

Qui,

"To not take it literal, would be hypocritical in my opinion. The interpretations would hold sturdier ground if it read:

In the beginning of Time, God created Space and Matter.

But it doesnt."


"Beginning" denotes time.

But it does. It was written in the Hebrew in the best terms of it's day. Keep also in mind that it is our modern synonyms for those words which developed and came after that language.

And, quite frankly, God could have dictated in the most strenuous scientific terms, but until today those would have been meaningless, and even less meaningful for tomorrow. The narrative was written for all men of all times and not intended as a scientific text.


Really, it doesn't impact evolution verses creation. It works in either scenario. Evolution certainly could only occur after the existence of the universe, including space, time, matter, and light.


Even if one wishes to debate the terminology and authenticity, you're still left with the initial verses in a Holy Book written by some ancient who wrote something amazingly coincidental about the foundational nature of reality and the universe, something we are only now catching up to.


And again, if you read Genesis any other way, it simply doesn't make sense. What I outlined is exactly what how it was intended to be read.

Anyway, I know we aren't debating the Holy Bible, but I mentioned it as I've understood it, and how I see that it does touch upon the topic at hand.


[EDITIOTORIAL (pun in the tradition of 'fececious') addition:

This actually touched upon one of the perennially great complaints of creationists, that evolutionists refuse to debate on strictly scientific terms without involving religious materials. In my own argumentation, once upon a time, whenever I tried simply to keep it to contesting evolution, whether it stands or falls on it's own merits, I was accused of playing unfair for not going at it as religion versus science, of trying to present a small target. Think about it. This is by far not limited to my experiences, but a complaint often voiced in realm of collegiate debate and otherwise.]

 

Well, I have said from the beginning that when you find what all religions and schools of thought have in common, when you examine their meeting points, THAT is where you'll begin to find the truth. And that's what the HP strikes me as doing - it fits so many components of so many religions, particularly the shared components.

By the way, Qui-Rune sent me this link, which I think is great, and Brooks, it deals a whole lot with the idea of light as mentioned in Genesis.

Zero-Point Field

 

Alot of great stuff above.

Nice reference to Einstein's reference to Quantum's "spooky connections".

That is the idea that a "replica so exact as the original that it ceases, in fact, to be a replica and becomes the original" was too paradoxical for even Einstein.

The multiple universe idea was postulated by a Dr. Everett.
He basically stated before observation there are various probablities, different paths, that the observation will yield.

Once you observe the object, those probabilities do not "cease to exist" but continue on a different pathway, a different realm, where an opposite probability DID happen.

Basically think of a tree with the trunk encompassing the various choices in reality, then branching off into "multi-verses" once the observation is made.

They all exist side by side simultaneously, just happen to be on a different path.

Maybe this is what ghosts are? Some residual, or "glitch" in the paths? An intersection if you will.


EDIT:

There are two good books by James Gleick. One deals with Quantum Physics, which some of you may have read.

There is another great one called Faster about the construct of time by people and how, as society advances, time seems to move quicker also.

 

Man I have a headache...

TreeCave, pass me the Tylenol.
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One thought I find interesting is that a sub-atomic "particle" is just a "particle" when observed. When not being observed it acts as a wave.

I love Quantum Physics.

 

Qui-Rune

"Man I have a headache...
TreeCave, pass me the Tylenol."



*Shane waves his hand in front of Qui-Rune*

You don't need any Tylenol.

"I don't need any Tylenol."

You don't even have a headache.

"I don't even have a headache."

It was all an illusion.

"It was all an illusion".

You will now strip down and run naked in your neighborhood yelling "We don't exist, so let's just get naked!"

"I will now strip down and and run naked through my....HUH?!"

Darn.

*Shane returns to reading his Jedi Handbook for Dummies by all the Jedi in the Prequels *

 

LOL!!!

now THAT'S funny!!!

 

LOL!!!!

YES! That was funny!

*Qui Rune tips his hat to ShaneP*

 

Shane, nice way to explain the multi-verse thing. I wanted to add something to Brooks' comments on it, but only recently read anything about Wheeler. (I AM fairly smart, but physics is SO deep, it's slow going for me comprehending it all.)

Yes, ghosts could be a glitch. So could things like my super-clear memory of Mark Hamill's birth year being 1952 instead of 1951. And delusional people might be somehow accidentally tuned into another one of the "branches" and be unable to tune back into this one. It would certainly explain how it can seem just as real to them as our realities do to us.

I read Chaos by Gleick, and I loved it. But Chaos Theory seems pretty deterministic, so the only way I can resolve it with the indeterminism of quantum physics is to assume things aren't really chronological outside our perception of them: you can still have cause and effect in a holographic universe, it just needn't always happen chronologically or locally, in a way that makes sense to us.

Qui, *there IS no headache.*

 

Some of this almost reminds of the Raelians beliefs, but then some [not all] of the Raelians beliefs are thought-provoking at any rate. BTW, (a little off topic), did the Raelian lady [forget her name] ever produce evidence of the clone?

 

Tree and Qui,

I just read the Zero point field article. Very interesting stuff. Qui, thanks for PMing me the link. Tree thanks for posting it here for everyone.

Actually, I recognized a synchronicity in it, as a lot of what it touched on was what I was trying to put across in my post above on the first three verses of Genesis and the verses dealing with Christ as an aspect of God and light.

Okay, I'm not trying to be preachy, so everyone, whatever your religious affiliation, just put'em aside.

Let's look at Jesus Christ, let's put skepticism on a back burner and for the sake of discussion accept the accounts of his life were accurate, with him as arguably the most incredible person to walk the face of the earth in all of history.

This is a man who walked on water, calmed storms, said the very rocks would cry out if no one else acknowledged His identity, healed, raised the dead, said heaven was here but we don't see it, then physically levitated (flew) out of sight up into the clouds.

The real Neo (new) Anderson (Son of man). His message was basically that life is more than we know or recognize. "Father forgive them they know not what they do." "If you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move that mountain and throw it into the sea."

Then He tells us we can do greater things than what he did in these regards. That reality allows for that potential.

You start putting all this together and it does turn orthodox perceptions of reality on end.

The bit about the "rocks crying out" came to mind while reading one of the linked articles which touched on intelligence even within the inanimate, such as plasma.

Even the scientists are admitting basically, "hey, we know this sounds like metaphysics but it is science. At least we think so."

That of course makes sense, since science is the study of nature, and if nature, as many of us believe was created, then in the conflict between science and religion both are going to the same place eventually and ultimately. There has to come a point of synthesis between the two eventually, where the lines do begin to blur, the closer to the truth of the nature of reality that we come, and that is exactly what one would expect to encounter in a created universe.

So, here we are in the real matrix, where the paranormal may just be the truest condition of normalcy, but in our darkness we cling to self-imposed parameters as to what is normal. Leap'n leprosy, We're backwards!!!

But then, that too, was part of the message given by the Christ. He said that we are blinded. Such that an abnormal condition (sin, missing the mark) is now feverishly clung to by us as normal, and we've all sorts of "intellectual" existentialist and materialistic philosophies and dogmas trying to keep us boxed in the matrix, the agent Smith's of the world, so to speak( I've loved the parable-istic nature of The Matrix).

In this light, the paranormal is the normal, but our abnormality is so pervasive we've decided it is the normal.

Precisely C.S. Lewis' dwarves in the pitch-black barn. All doubt, no true faith.

Christ wept.



p.s., I'm trying to locate the account of the flying monk (no, not the old Sally Field sit-com about the nun), a man who was very simple but ardent in his devotion to God, such that he actually levitated during Mass.
To such a height it was embarrasing because under his robe he went au natural.
Anyone else familiar with the account? I've got the info in one of my books somewhere. I'll keep looking.