PT Meaning of PT Episode titles and keywords: is the dialogue the weakest part of PT movies?

I know that I'm throwing down the glove again, but I think it is an important issue to discuss. The thing that inspired this thread is paradoxically a phrase from AOTC honest trailers, where the author said: Why is this called Attack of the Clones if clones aren't attack nothing at all. Well, it is obvious that the clones are attacking, well in the end of the movie but still they are the attacking side.
So, my first conclusion was, than a difference from OT, the titles of the PT episodes serve as connection to the next episode. For example, A New Hope tells the story of Luke who is the new hope form the moment when he is the new hope. But Phantom menace presents its self clearly in the third part of the movie (same thing Attack of the clones and Revenge if the Sith). So I thought: Well, the sentence of Lucas that PT used just one but large movie, is right, because with those titles he wanted to establish the connection of the next episode. But what about the dialogue? If the titles are OK and they are dedicated to connect the PT series in one big movie, what about the dialogue?
It is really so weak as it is said? I don't think so. And what inspired me for that was a sentence from Cryogenic who said about AOTC that is full of falling: Anakin and Padme fall in love, the shroud of the Dark Side is falling, etc. So, if we can find some keywords of the dialogue we can agree that falling is a key part of them.
So , what do you think of the so called key words, the titles and the dialogue itself in general mean in general in pt? t is really the weakest part of PT or it is just underrated?
I must say that I'm not native English speaker, that's why I very much count of your interest and ideas about this thread.

 

I personally think that the title is meant to have an ironic meaning - using the clones attacks the very things the Republic stands for. Of course it also has the literal meaning of the clones attacking the separatist droid army but I've always thought that's not the real point of the title.

 

I love the title "Attack of the Clones". It's so unabashedly campy sounding while also being a little subversive because from the name you would expect them to be the bad guys because we automatically assume that the bad guys, not the good guys, are the attackers. Of course that's kind of the point of the movie, that the good guys begin to get enmeshed in this path of war and violence that causes them to lose their way.

 

The Phantom Menace is actually quite appropriate for Episode I, IMHO. Sure, the reveal doesn't take place until Revenge of the Sith, but that actually lends more credence to the phantom aspect of Sidious' character. He's this ambiguous character that no one quite has a grasp of, but he's painstakingly setting out a stage for which to acquire more power and control of the galaxy.

 

It does seem that all three of the PT titles point to themselves as individual movies first then to the conclusion of the PT as a whole. So that in the third film the Phantom Menace is revealed the Jedi are attacked by the Clones and the Revenge of the Sith completed. I never thought of that before. Thank you for bringing this up that I could think about this and gain an even greater appreciation of the brilliance of the PT. Man this stuff is going to be studied one day lol!!!

 

The Dialogue is not whatI would call "strong" as Lucas even stated that it wasn't the main focus. It was to move the story forward, help with the sound and visuals.4

But I would not call it "extremely weak" It does well in itself, and helps the story very well IMO.

 

Yeah, Star Wars dialogue has always struck me as, well, "stylized" in a manner appropriate to a story involving pew pew lasers, space cowboys, bad guys in black capes, etc. Sure there are naturalistic moments amidst it all--which is why the whole thing works--but for me at least the visuals, world-building, action and silent character portraits have always stood out more than the actual words being said.

Although I can see why many people prefer the OT's snappy banter approach to the PT's more mannered style. That's cool. For me though the former is so common in the action genre that I felt the latter to be a more than welcome change in direction. Some people mock the PT for having more than one scene where characters converse while sitting on couches, but most often I found the conflict and tension in these closed-in spaces just as essential as the Imperial walkers were to ESB. The PT showed me there is more than one type of battle ground in Star Wars.

 

To be honest I don't understand the bad dialogue argument.

Obviously it is meant to be like a pantomime - which means it is easy for viewers to take it in and in fact parrot the whole films back almost word for word after only a few viewings. Sure there are one or two clunky or flat lines - but what is the bar here? What are these films that has every line effortlessly falling out of actors tounges always sounding like the best prose, sounding naturalistic, funny, and profound at the same time?

I would rather the style in these films and be able to pass lines back and forth with my family - "ultimate power !", "I hate you !!", "You fool !", "I will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war ", "Space is cold", "Execute order 66 !" - I mean who doesn't like all this stuff, kids and adults alike?

Plus, actually if you pay attention there are examples of very good dialog - compact exchanges that say a lot in few lines.

For example the exchange in the freighter between Anakin and Padme about the Jedi loving is in fact a mediation on what love actually is. Everything but compassion is allowed - and this is love is it not? Silimarly in the picnic scene. You either have democracy - a flawed freedom, or a wise leader - similarly open to abuse. Just a casual conversation distills politics to it's bare essentials.

All of the dialog with Palpatine in TPM on Coruscant is fine - it is very lean and comprehensible and easy to follow if you can be bothered. Very little if anything is wasted in the PT - certainly none of it is to make the actors seam 'cool' or 'hip' or induldge in Marlon Brando like excesses of 'look at me acting - "I'm a contender".

It is for telling a story, no more or less.

Oh - the Kamino scenes - I mean what's wrong there? The Opera scene ? Excellent. Dooku and Obi-Wan in AOTC. Fine. Young Anakin and his mother and Qui-Gon - that's all great - what is the problem - the kid's cool?

Not liking the dialog is like saying Beethoven is bad because of the way he beats themes within an inch of their lives with an annoying insistence. Yeah maybe, but that's what he does, you just don't like it.

(And another thing - that 'it all happens on couches' thing. Yeah like ANH - round the table at Aunt Beru's, the round table in the death star, always standing in the cockpit on the Falcon, having a drink in the Cantina....how come they are always sitting around in the OT? )

 

Very interesting answers, I would add more details here.

Let's take the title Attack of the clones. Yes, there is attack of the clones in the movie and yes, it happens almost in the end. So the title of Episode 2 is practically a connection to Episode 3 where we say almost the same: the revenge of the Sith happened during the Order 66 and after this, i.e. again in the end of the movie. Same in the Phantom menace: during the funeral of Qui Gon where everything looked menacing (!) it is revealed that indeed the Sith are here and one of them survived and it is still a menace, but this menace is not revealed after Episode 3 because as Matthaeus Sunrider already said they are connected and it is deliberate because as Lucas pointed out so many times, PT is one large movie and these are its 3 acts. In OT is different, because A New Hope tells about the raising of the new hope Luke and the theme of the hope is introduced very early in the movie and very early is connected to Luke. Same in TESB ( it begins practically begins with a strike of the empire, etc.), not to mention ROTJ.

So yes, Lucas is master of visuals, but the words have their own meaning here. And as Ezon Pin said, the dialogue is stylized but it doesn't mean that it is bad.

About the keywords: I had in mind the connection between the tittle and the scenes in the movie. I'll discuss again what happens in Attack of the clones: is there are any attacks before the real attack of the clones? Well, the opening scene is attack against the Padme's ship, after this Anakin attacks the centipodes, he and Obi attack Zam, etc. etc. Actually, it is full of attacks. So the statement that Lucas actually ignore the words for visuals is stupid; yes Lucas himself pointed out that the dialogue is just helping the visual, but it not something put just like that, it is elaborated carefully so it should be harmonized with the visuals that are the indeed the strongest part.

I'll give an example of the dialogue of AOTC again. What happens in the bar where they look for Zam?
-Why I have the feeling that you'll be the death of me?
Next scene with Obi Wan:
-You wanna buy some death sticks? (if I spelled it correctly).
Next scene:
-..who was trying to kill?
(and after that Zam is killed, i.e. dead).

And this is just an example. Yes, it really makes me cringe when someone says that the dialogue in PT is bad.

 

My answer to that Honest Trailers question would be: that's the point. They aren't attacking anything. It's a false flag attack. Palpatine is the orchestrator of everything. He is the prime mover of the whole trilogy and is connected in some way to every major plot point -- he is the bad guy protagonist (to those who haven't read it, I've written more about that here). Just as the original trilogy has each title in relation to Luke: he's the new hope, the Empire is striking back at him and because of him, he is the Jedi that returns and brings back the Jedi way. The prequel trilogy is the same: Palpatine is the phantom menace, he is the one ordering the attack of the clones -- both from his forces and at his forces, interestingly, because he controls both sides, the Clone Wars are sort of a distraction (which is partly why Lucas doesn't focus on it too much), and then he is the Sith that gets revenge and brings back the Sith way. In terms of the serial-ness or, as some would say, 'campiness' of the titles, I think they are fine, they are directly in line with what Star Wars is about -- that serialized element. We are not getting titles here like 'The Undiscovered Country.' The dialogue is meant to be a lived-in dialogue of the Star Wars universe. The people in different parts and different eras of that universe speak a certain way. One mustn't forget Lucas is an anthropologist at heart. As a piece of entertainment, I have really no issues with the dialogue. I just don't think it's what people are used to. The dialogue helps develop the thematic and emotional material -- that's its role, as a helper, that's all. I think on that note it does its part very well.

 

Yes, of course I think that Honest trailers are completely wrong here, my points was that instead if make me dislike AOTC (it is my favorite episode) they unwillingly made me liked even more because I have never thought of that connections between the episodes and it is made by the words, not by the visuals. And this connection can be seen in all the 3 prequels.

 

Attack of the Clones is the weakest of the prequels and possibly of the entire saga, from the story to the dialogue all the way to the title. Even so, I don't have a huge problem with it. "Attack of the Clones" has two meanings, the first being the attack of the clone army against the separatists that begins the Clone Wars. The second is that the Clone Army was an attack on everything the Republic stood for and it caused the Jedi to go against their own teachings. Yoda expounds on this in Star Wars Rebels which I think is a nice touch and reconciles the Yoda we see in the Clone Wars with the anti-war, anti-fighting Yoda we meet in Empire Strikes Back.

 

I used to think that AOTC was the weakest of the saga, but after recently watching it, I may make a defense of it.

AOTC is the first scene in which we get to see Anakin and Obi-wan as Jedi Knights in action, and the result is spectacular, from the Coruscant chase to the arena fight at the end. We finally get to see the jedi as the guardians of galaxy, and we also see the flaws that led to their downfall.

The colors of the film are vibrant, contrasted, and essential to the story. The episodic nature of Star Wars is meant to emulate the Flash Gordon series, and this episode in particular blows Flash Gordon out of the water as far as style and execution goes.

Mirroring TESB in a small, but telling way, AOTC ends in what appears to be a victory, despite Dooku getting away. Yoda says it is not, but the clone army destroyed and saved the day. The real defeat is that the jedi have cemented their demise in this, setting up 66, so really this ending is far more of a defeat than TESB, but in disguise. I think its wonderful mirroring, and subtle foreshadowing.

The dialogue? Stylized. All Star Wars dialogue is. The OT doesn't have realistic dialogue either. PT haters seem to overlook that.

 

Well, I didn't mean to make this thread in defense of my favorite episode, but I'd like to thank Kenobi1138 for the posting above.
I emphasized on the dialogue exactly because as stylized to harmonize perfectly with the visuals. Ezon Pin once said that AOTC is ambiguous. I agree and it is obvious from the visuals. Coruscant is an ambiguous planet with sterile tops and dirty underground. We have two "mirroring" desert planets: Geonosis and Tattoine, which are completely different one to another. Same with Naboo and Kamino: they are planets full of water, but in Kamino the water is dangerous in Naboo is something full of life.
What about the dialogue? This ambiguity is present there also. for example:
-I like the water/I don't like sand
-I'm dying every day since you came back in mi life.
-aggressive negotiations, etc.

P.S. About the realistic dialogue.. It makes me cringe, really. Why in space opera why should see a realistic dialogue? The space opera is by default unrealistic. Why is the realistic element considered as something that is always good to apply?

 

The Phantom Menace: Sidious is the Phantom (unseen) Menace
Attack of the Clones: Clone Wars started on the attack on Geonosis
Revenge of the Sith: Well, pretty easy to find out.

I don't understand the insane criticism of the PT dialogue. The OT had horrible dialogue in strides as well. TFA is the only one with an actual, really good script...but that movie has tons of issues on its own as is.

 

I think maybe the prequels were going against the grain of the times they were released in. The tendency then was for dialogue to be moving towards being more realistic, like the reimagined Battlestar Galactica show which to me at the time seemed better than Star Wars. But now 10 years later I feel the opposite. BSG feels tired and old while the prequels feel fresh and timeless. So I think the unusual dialogue style may have hurt their initial reception but at the same time made them age well, since they're not so rooted in the trends of their times.

 

Yes indeed Tonyg. AOTC, is the most strange mixed, ambiguous SW movie to date. In fact, it's a strange movie in itself. Romance, War, Mystery, drama. Such aspects all in one movie tied together in a very awkward yet cohesive manner.

Dialogue isn't amazing but it's actually just good. Well written. It has it's iffy/awkward times, but I would even go to lengths saying that dialogue in the PT is much better than the OT.

AOTC is much better in french as of course, they understand the operatic themes very much so than the US dub. Plus they have a better sound but I still love the US dub regardless.

 

How do we know that Anakin isn't the Phantom Menace? Personally, I always thought Maul was the Phantom Menace.

 

The title, "Attack of the Clones", always struck me as a cross between a b-movie homage and a parallel to the title "The Empire Strikes Back". Both titles are essentially describing the dominant government's forces in attack.

 

Well that's a good idea too. But for me, personally, Sidious is behind all the problems in the film, and nobody can see it, so IMO he is The Phantom Menace.

 

The dialogue is actually one of the strongest parts.

Anakin carves Padme a primitive but touching gift made out of a "japor snippet".

A block of wood, carved out of a larger structure/organism, inscribed with crude alien markings, forming some vague yet discernible yet unexplained pattern. Something simple yet otherworldly about it.

And Lucas, accepting The AFI Lifetime Achievement Award in 2005, publicly outed himself as "The King of Wooden Dialogue".

And guess what? The snippet disappears in the glorious cheese-fest of AOTC and re-appears in ROTS, only to be carried away by Padme: the secret keeper of cosmic truths, the loving feminine choked by Anakin, the Dark Fairy of the galaxy, the snippet's original creator, trying to master the recalcitrant film text with dreams of violent overthrow.

Star Wars is constantly trying to describe itself as plainly, but as beautifully, as possible.

 

The dialogue within TPM is among the best; it sets up the saga very well and many of its concepts (midichlorians and living Force) would serve as huge central plot points in some of the most mysterious and deep episodes of TCW.

As for the title "The Phantom Menace", it means the rise of the dark side. In Episode I and II, the Jedi could sense the dark side growing but have no idea who, or what, was behind it. If it was up to me, Episode II would've been called "The Rise of the Clones"; attack made zero sense. The clones were defending the Republic. "Revenge of the Sith" was just perfect; after a thousand years, the Sith Grand Plan was finally achieved.

*applauses*

 

Actually, TFA is the only one without an actual, really good script, not to mention all it´s other flaws.

 

You're right, TFA has an excellent script in terms of character dialogue. So does ESB though.

 

TFA has a good script?!?

First I've heard of it!



If that is a good script then by comparison I-VI scripts are awesome poetry. Well actually they are in many ways especially the prequels. It's not just the visual and musical storytelling that Lucas rhymed but the dialogue as well.

Although Lucas always quite rightly de-emphasizes the direct importance of the dialogue it still is a great support mechanism which he ably uses.

I think though for those fans whose viewpoint is that they see Star Wars movies as dialogue led and the visuals as background they would see that in TFA which comes from JJ and Kasdan who are write that way. It's a far more easy to access TV style of writing. Objectively we know that isn't the case for I-VI because that is not how Lucas made them.

The reality is that before ANH was made virtually anyone reading any of Lucas' draft could possibly see what was going on in them. It seemed like total rubbish. It's only after he showed you what he saw that you could really start to appreciate them.

It's almost as if critics dismiss everything Lucas says behinds the scenes about how he does the movies and apply their own standards of how things should be done as opposed to the way they are actually done.

Excellent post.

Against the grain is what Lucas was always about.

Which was always the point of a long time ago and far, far away. Some of the "modern" dialogue that is in TFA will date it to a particular time and will be one of the many points of demarcation from the original six to the new corporate era.