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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Mega thread: Sequels and spinoff films and the overall saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by anakinfansince1983 , Jun 20, 2017.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I'm excited. Just over 4 hours to go.
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It probably is (chances are it's visually better and creative than TFA), but what I care about first and foremost is his story and sadly this isn't it. It's something else, akin to the Thrawn trilogy or the New Jedi Order series. Not the 'real deal', which they have in their possession.

    Not really. I want George' story, not his personal opinion of the aesthetics of whatever movie they decided to do.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That's because they don't want quality, right?
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Agreed, that's a terrible argument to use to diminish a person's individual opinion. However general broad opinion is a separate & entirely legitimate subject. It's how we know that Norbit is considered crap while The Godfather is considered great. Or how we can separate One Direction from The Beatles. That's only through weight of opinion. In other words, popularity & acclaim.

    By the way AFS83, could I suggest that you ensure no thread titles in the ST forum contain spoilers? On the front page of the site, under "latest post" on the right there's the thread names containing all of the recent posts. When I looked at them earlier I think I may've seen a spoiler. Not sure, I looked away quickly. Thought it worth mentioning.
    No, the best a movie can hope to do is win over 80-90% of its audience. No movie has ever pleased everyone. Every metric suggests that TFA achieved that high end % of approval. Which is all you can hope for. If you're one of the people who didn't like it, that's unfortunate. You're not wrong to think that way, just unlucky.
    The spin will be that he's complimenting the skill shown in the making of the film, while secretly thinking it's "unoriginal", "fan-service"...etc etc.
    Which is the case with every sequel ever made. Including all of the SW sequels & prequels. Do you think George made those movies bcs he had a story he wanted to tell? Let's ask him:

    "Don’t tell anyone but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories — let’s call them homages — and you’ve got a series".
    http://collider.com/george-lucas-letter-lost-damon-lindelof-carlton-cuse/

    Yet hilariously people talk about his precious ST sketch of a story idea. They hold it up like it's the word of God, & any deviation from it is sacrilege.
    One of his other motivations was to sell toys. He was hoping that toy sales from SW would make him more $$ than The Godfather made for Coppola.
    Neither do Lucasfilm under their new owners. Yet both they & Lucas are influenced by audience response & opinion, even if they pretend they're not. If you like you can think it's just a coincidence that JarJar was reduced to a cameo role following the release & fallout from TPM. Or that creating a character out of Maul's severed torso in TCW had nothing to do with his popularity. You can believe in Santa & unicorns too.

    For any little kids reading this, just ignore me. Santa is real [face_liarliar]
     
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  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Darth Downunder You see? He doesn't care what George Lucas things. Only what he does.

    So Alexrd what you're saying is that for you Star Wars is not a subjective experience. It's a devotional one, where regardless of its quality, the only thing that is worth paying any interest to is what George Lucas does. Nothing else, including that which Lucas endorses, can be considered for any criticism. But at the same time, the quality of what George Lucas does is irrelevant. Only his authorship is relevant. So at least you're consistent in this sense.

    Non-Lucas products don't deserve to be given any critical consideration.

    The quality of Lucas products is irrelevant so they also don't attract any critical consideration.
     
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  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Darth Downunder , we try to keep spoilers in this forum under tags until the New Year. If you see a spoiler in a thread title, report the post or PM @Bazinga’d or myself . I’m at work so I am doing more looking at specific threads than browsing and I might miss something if I’m not directed specifically there. I’ll definitely do an overall forum check when I get home.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I already reported a single post on this board yesterday that is telling posters discussing TFA what TLJ has now done. It's still there. So either it's permitted to spoil TLJ on the saga board or something else.
     
  8. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    The last time we heard George's opinion on SW was TFA on video(might I add he was a bit flamed for it too). He might be a shy man but he definitely isn't short of a few words.


    "Diluted" is the word you're looking for;)
     
  9. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Wouldn't a work have to hold up to scrutiny far after its release in order to genuinely have that acclaim be legitimate? The Force Awakens doesn't even hold up that well a year after its release. I'd hardly think that people will look onto this trilogy a decade or two from now and go, "Yeah, that was pretty great". It doesn't even benefit from having an interesting story and setting like the prequel trilogy did. It's arguably the most contrived and artificial in its construction.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, please, let's ignore the intent, context and tone of that quote. The development of Lucas' saga is very well documented. There's no pretense.

    Yes, it is to me. What's your aversion over the fact that some people do take the person who created a fictional universe as the judge and jury over what is and isn't part of it? It's a pretty simple concept to understand. He imagined it and created it. Not someone else. I'll take his word over what the story his instead of a third party. Some people care about fan fiction, their choice. Perfectly valid. I don't. Authorship and authenticity matter to me.

    No, it wasn't. He sold toys in order to finance himself. Again, it's well documented, no need to make stuff up.

    Yes, so that he could be free to do whatever he wanted and not be subjected to the whims of studios or anybody else.

    I don't need to. You're assuming that the role of Jar Jar (and his story) was meant to be larger than it ended up being, which is not true. His story was told in TPM. He didn't need to appear after that. And despite that, Lucas still included him in the next two movies.

    Or you could provide evidence to support your baseless claims, but I know that's too much to ask.

    So...?! What's it to you wether I care or not? It has nothing to do with my argument. Try again.

    And for the record, I do care about what he says out of mere curiosity. Not as the basis for my argument, which, for some unknown reason, is what you're implying.

    Indeed. But he's polite enough to not openly trash someone else's work in public, even if he hates it.
     
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  11. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    ENOUGH. The next person who bashes or flames either the PT, OT, or ST or someone else's opinion will be banned. KEEP THE DISCUSSIONS CIVIL.

    anakinfansince1983
     
  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Just saw the film. Despite being a little disheartened by the opening crawl (how do I hide spoilers?), it was a good experience. A lot of clever things in the movie, it keeps you guessing. I don't know what else to say without divulging major plot points...
     
  13. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Use spoiler tags: "(spoilers) text (/spoilers)" replacing parentheticals with brackets.
     
  14. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I don't think he's lying when he said it is beautifully made, he's just giving his opinion like anyone else and you can disagree with him if you want. I saw the movie this morning and it was good, far from perfect but there were some nice things, especially the visuals. And there were more humor than I thought, I don't think it's darker than RotS which was a real downer.

    And there's already the "best SW movie since ESB" argument, how original . How many time did that happen now?
     
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  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Some random thoughts...

    - The opening crawl I'm not a huge fan of, it appears even though this seems to follow on from moments after TFA and the destruction of Starkiller base, the First Order rules the galaxy and by the end of this film even the Resistance is almost totally wiped out. A little frustrating tbh.
    But the movie kicked into action pretty fast and for the most part kept up the pace. Something about it seemed a little less forced than TFA, perhaps because of already established characters? It was surprising to straight away see Hux used for humour at his expense, didn't care for him much in TFA anyway.

    - Did not see Snoke's death coming. I mean I knew Kylo wouldn't kill Rey, even though it looked like it was going to be another Han death moment, but I just assumed Snoke was going to be the big bad for the whole trilogy. He was definitely more interesting and less generic in this film than previously, but as others are saying it is a little bit sad that it looks like we will never see his origins and details to how he turned Kylo. I get the karma aspect of his cruelty to Kylo coming back to bite him in the ass. Kylo and Rey fighting Snoke's guards was a cool climax to their force-communications, but again it was the same depressing feeling I got when Han died when we see Kylo just wants to rule himself in Snoke's place. He feels lost to me, I don't know how I would feel if they go for a redemption arc direction.
    Luke's involvement in kylo's fall shown first from Kylo's memory then Luke's memory was a cool touch.

    - Past/future echoes in the mirror lol. I have to admit it had me fooled when I thought the mirror was going to show Rey her parents.

    - Rey is a nobody? I really thought she was going be a descendant of someone, I think we are supposed to think it doesn't matter though particularly with Kylo seemingly being the one to think failed lineage is important.

    - Luke was awesome, I do like the original happy-ever-after ending to ROTJ, but it's more Luke Skywalker nevertheless. Bittersweet though, knowing he passes at the end. I'm sure he will force-ghost in ep9.

    - The creatures were a highlight, the environments felt alive.

    - Humour was welcome, some of the interactions between Luke and Rey were gold (the "reach out" moment especially), BB8 piloting an AT-ST.

     
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  16. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    Does anyone have non-spoiler thoughts on the soundtrack?
     
  17. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    Its John Williams, how can it not be great. :)
     
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  18. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Just got back, so still digesting it a bit, will need another viewing. First impressions:

    Pros
    - a beautiful farewell to Luke Skywalker - Mark Hamill couldn't be better, and his passing away was perfect. Did someone say 'the Son of Suns'?;) ;
    - terrific performances from a stellar cast (with the exception of Domnhall Gleeson as General Hux - he's just as bad as he was in TFA) ;
    - cheerfully irreverent a lot of the time, even tongue-in-cheek - dialogue was great, liked the silliness of the Porgs, absolutely loved that scene between Luke & Yoda. Plus, Adrian Edmonson (The Young Ones, Bottom) as a First Order officer almost seemed like an in-joke - I was half-expecting him to fart or set something on fire for no reason, but he managed to behave...

    Cons
    - it's too long, and there's too much going on at the same time in terms of the various plotlines, making for a very exhausting experience;
    - "Haven't we seen this before?" - from the opening crawl reflecting ESB's, to the Falcon being chased through those caves, and most of all, the downright remake of the Throne Room scene from ROTJ, it just felt overly derivative of the OT, while TFA genuinely seemed like a continuation. Not the whole time, but every so often, TLJ almost felt like a reboot, not a sequel.

    Overall, I thought it was great, but it's a bit of a different beast to the previous episodes in the Saga, being something of an original work from a newcomer to the franchise, as opposed to being either GL's own vision (OT & PT), or closely related to previously floated ideas for the OT, as TFA was, along with being written by the co-writer of ESB. It has that slightly off-centre feel that Rogue One did, although the presence of so many familiar Saga characters grounds it somewhat. That's not actually a criticism - it's actually encouraging to see SW being allowed to head off in different directions - but it is noticeable.

    It'll be interesting to see how well The Last Jedi is received, both now and over time.
     
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  19. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Well, I saw it, and against the trend and to my own surprise didn't like it at all.

    As a stand alone movie I think, it's pretty good, but as a Star Wars film it has so many issues, it's hard to ignore.

    There are many twists and turns, which were refreshing, but what are we really left with at the end? The New Republic is completely erased from existence at the start of the film, and we end up with a few dozen rebels as they are now once again called in a single ship having to defeat the FO, who now controls the entire galaxy. Talk about bad odds. Snoke became a plot device, only to be replaced by his incapable luitenant. Let's not forget Kylo got his *** handed to him, and since this film directly follows TFA, and his training has not been completed, our main antagonist for episode IX remains just a boy in a mask, as Snoke called him, a pretender to the throne.

    However, things are much worse on the side of the good. Whereas Luke took three films and the trials of Job to finally become a Jedi, Rey is now on her way to Jedi Knighthood after just three lessons. Three lessons reluctantly given by Luke are apparently enough for him to pass on the batton, and then just die. We got some Jedi history, which is nice, but apparently Yoda feels Rey and her three lessons worth of Jedi training are already more important than the collected wisdom of the Jedi masters of old. This attitude perfectly encapsulates this film.

    I really liked TFA despite it's derivative nature, mostly because of the new characters. However, what does TLJ really do with these characters?

    Rey:

    Rey who's set up as a character with a mysterious background, who inexplicably has these great powers, but with a strong moral fibre, ends up in exactly the same place she was, only without the mystery. She's still a as good natured as ever, only now she really just randomly has these amazing powers, that she hasn't earned. She turns out to be a nobody, who's now on the fast track to becoming a Jedi with only three basic lessons from the great Luke Skywalker. There's no explanation why the Force awoke in her, it just did. The vision she had in TFA just turns out to have been a red herring.

    Kylo:

    Kylo has been set up to be an immature boy hiding behind a mask. He's presented in TFA as the inheritor of Darth Vader's legacy, but is ultimately exposed by Rey to be somewhat of a fraud. He get's to go back to his master to lick his wounds, and hopefully reinvent himself. Sadly, this doesn't pan out. He's more or less cast aside by Snoke, and while this in of itself might have been an interesting starting point for his further development, he's finally put in charge of the FO, not by his cunning or abilities, but because Rey hands herself to him, and Snoke is the dumbest fool in the galaxy.

    Finn:

    Finn get's sent on a useless mission only made possible by Holdo's poor communication skills. He fails his mission, but I guess wrecking a casino, and killing the severly underdeveloped Phasma is enough for him.

    Poe:

    Get's a reasonable arc in this film, even if he seems like an unsuitable candidate for the leadership of the Resitance turned rebels.

    Luke:

    While Mark Hamill gives a great performance, this incarnation of the famed Jedi has him contemplating his nephew's murder, because he has a bad vision. Remember this is the same character who couldn't kill his father who was space Hitler. In the end it takes an appearance of Yoda, who inexplicably chooses this moment to reappear, and burns down the GFFA equivalent of the Old Testament as a joke to get Luke to see the light. His purpose is now to distract his mad nephew, such that his extremely inexperienced student can take his place to defeat Kylo (again), something the far more experienced Luke could have done in his sleep. Luke just dies, because he's tired, I guess, and they need to give Kylo a fighting chance.

    Leia:

    Leia didn't get much development in the previous film, and while being a dignified presence in this one, ultimately get's to give up on her son, going against the main theme of hope and redemption that underlied the saga thusfar.

    Snoke:

    A villain seemingly older than time, a mysterious dark side user turns out to be nothing more than a plot device. This evil dark side master, who displays an awesome control of the Force, after showing his cunning, foresight, and inteligence, suddenly feels he's invincible, and get's cut down like a chump by his immature apprentice. Who he is, and where he came from is irrelevant now, I guess. The fact that this fool was somehow able to seduce Han and Leia's son, and Luke's student is completely glossed over. I suppose Kylo was just a bad egg.

    I just don't understand the praise for this film to be honest. It would be an entertaining blockbuster on it's own, but as part of the now eight part saga it's a massive letdown in my view, that not only undermines the six part Lucas saga, but TFA as well. I wish, I could love this movie like so many here, but ultimately this film doesn't really respect what preceeded it in my view.

     
  20. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    As someone who is teetering on the knife's edge between non-spoiler and spoiler, I am craving more non-spoiler opinions of TLJ.
     
  21. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    I have not seen the movie yet, but opinions are on both sides of the spectrum, i.e., "Its the best SW movie ever" to "Its the worst Star Wars movie eve", I recommend you go into the movie with no expectations and come to your own conclusions. People who have preconceived notions of what they want from a Star Wars Movie tend to not always like what the film maker has produced. We saw it with the PT, and we are starting to see it with the TLJ. From what I also have heard, you may need to see the movie more then once to process all of it.
     
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  22. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Yeah, I think you should watch it yourself. There's a lot to take in, and a lot to potentially like or dislike.
     
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  23. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    DrDre I didn't expect that our opinions would be so similar on it. Interesting.
     
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  24. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    If it helps, you're not the only one who went in expecting to like it, but came out with mixed feelings.
     
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  25. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Fair enough to those who either haven't liked it, or have very mixed felings. I have mixed feelings about the film as a film, but I'll admit that I have a strong emotional connection to some of these characters and what happens to them - they've been with me since the age of three. The Film Formerly Known as Star Wars was the first movie I went to see in a cinema, so there's a clear bias.

    It just occurred to me that there is no real connection between TLJ and all those old scripts, notes and quotes of GL's which a few of us in Saga pore over and argue about (from 1973 all the way to 2005).
    Nothing.
    It's a sequel to TFA, following its story and the new characters, but I can't think of anything in the film itself which connects to any old theories about Luke, Vader, the Sith, the Force, the Whills, anything. There's plenty in it which directly references the earlier films themselves, all too shamelessly, but while TFA (with Lawrence Kasdan's involvement) took a few cues from that earlier vision of ROTJ, this new episode is almost 100% original, as far as it could be.

    I don't know how to feel about that. I'm inclined to praise Rian Johnson for pulling it off, despite the film's many flaws. He gave the great Luke Skywalker a more-than-worthy sendoff, and kept the story together. No, we didn't find out who Snoke was, how the First Order came about, or who the 'Knights of Ren' were, but we've got a solid bridge between Eps 7 & 9, even if LFL has to figure out how to deal with the all-too-early passing away of the greatest Princess that ever graced the pages or frames of a fantasy tale=(( .

    Sadly, though, I realised that with Luke's passing away in the sunset of two suns on Ach-To, just as his call to adventure occurred before the duel sunset on Tatooine in SW/ANH, this film also bids a final farewell to Luke's namesake, and his involvement with the universe he created.
    George Lucas had no involvement with the creation of this film, and it doesn't mine old ideas he never used. It's just a continuation, despite rehashing plenty from previous films. Even Rogue One had Vader's castle - an old idea from the first draft of ESB - but this new episode is one that GL can't really claim any credit on in terms of original content. Yes, it rips off the earlier films, but it resembles a grandson who never met his actual grandfather, despite exhibiting so many of the old man's traits.
    Perhaps a rather over-the-top analogy, but given the seriousness of a certain character's demise, it seems appropriate, and one which parallels the fading away of the Star Wars universe's very creator. I hope GL appreciated the heartfelt beauty Luke's final scene as much as I did.