main
side
curve

Saga Mega thread: Sequels and spinoff films and the overall saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by anakinfansince1983 , Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yeah. Sure. No problem.
    But he sticks to his commitment to give her those lessons. If he'd changed his mind we wouldn't see any more of them. Again, we can only guess what the other one was about. Those are the only facts we know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  2. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    The other one wasn’t about anything, because it didn’t happen.
     
    kalzeth likes this.
  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    How can you know that? We assume Luke received training off screen from Ben & Yoda. In this case we have Luke saying Rey will get 3 lessons. He mentions a first one & a final one. How do you know there was no 2nd one?
     
  4. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    It's highly probable the novelization will include the deleted scene.
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Or a different version of the lesson entirely. We'll see.
     
  6. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    The second lesson, if I remember correctly, was on screen. It was just Luke ranting on Episode 3, and Rey reminding him what happened in Episode 6. It was more a lesson for Luke than Rey though.

    The third lesson was cut due to movie length reasons. That's the only reason Rian gave to cut extra scenes, not that he did not intend for that to happen as he wrote. They will probably be in the Blu-Ray edition, or in the novelization.
     
  7. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I believe there were more reasons for that cut, actually.

    That is probable, yes. Which will make the scene canon and make RJ's storytelling seem poor.

    It already is though, if Luke indeed says "final lesson", because then we either have a scenario where Luke skips lesson three and Rey doesn't in any way react to this, or we have a scenario where we don't get to see lesson two and there's no mention of it.

    I remember hearing him say "lesson two", though...
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    We'll have to wait & see. From what I've read the cut scene is a bit comical. It might be more of a gag designed for the screen. The novel is still months away so we'll find out then what the other lesson officially entails.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  9. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Why are we even talking about the Rey-Luke lessons as if they were Jedi training. They were anti-Jedi training. Rey told Luke that if he wasn't going to help, then he at least owed his sister a reason. Luke sensed Leia, so he trained Rey to give her the reason Leia "deserved".

    His first lesson was ending with why that Force does not belong to the Jedi. Even without her black hole failure, it was not a lesson to become a Jedi. The second "lesson" was just rambling about the Jedi vanity and inability to properly use the Force for good. And the third sounds like Luke being an ass.

    There was NO Jedi training.
     
  10. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    I'm pretty sure the third lesson involved the caretakers. Luke told Rey that once a month pillages come to the island or something and kill some of them. In the distance, by the beach, Rey sees a fire. She thinks its the pillages and races to it (this shot is in the first teaser trailer, of her running along the beach with lightsaber ignited). When she gets there she realises its Chewie, the caretakers and the porgs having a party at the caretaker village. I think RJ cut it out because he said it made Luke look like a ####.
     
    Mostly Handless likes this.
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It's like they are making up issues that the saga never established or presented and then argue against it. When did the Force ever belonged to the Jedi? When were the Jedi vain or unable to use the Force for good?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Very good questions. Sorry for being blunt, but it does sound as if we were looking at "alternative facts". :(
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} and kalzeth like this.
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    A lot of people came away from the PT with a negative impression of the Jedi, that they were arrogant and stuck in their own dogma. I thought Filoni took that impression and went overboard with it during TCW, and I have always spoken out against a default anti-Jedi sentiment. But I do like what Luke did, indicating that the light side of the Force does not belong to any particular religious belief.

    Whether he needed to say as much for Rey’s sake or the sake of the viewers is another debate, but I liked that speech anyway.
     
  14. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I also think the first lesson is the closest to an actual lesson, at least until her powers freaked him out. To me that the only one that mattered in the end. The second lesson was just a very broad history of the PT Jedi and their "hubris" (I think there was also a lot of his own guilt in that speech) and apparently the last lesson was Luke being a jerk to Rey.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} and kalzeth like this.
  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    His comments weren't necessarily facts but they were reasonable opinions. Remember he's looking back through texts & records & forming an opinion of the old Jedi Order from afar. From that he could easily form the view that the Order was somewhat elitist. An exclusive club where only members are exposed to the Force. Add to that part of the selection criteria is the volume of magical bacteria a child has in their blood. It's certainly possible after reading that to get an impression that they were a bit clinical, cold & there was an arrogance & a feeling of ownership of the Force.

    IMO he was also spot on in judging the recent history of the Jedi as one of failure. The Jedi had daily contact with a Sith Lord - for years - & didn't stop him. They welcomed an army of programmed clones into the fold who conveniently popped up out of nowhere. Most damning of all, in just 50 years THREE Jedi turned evil & wreaked chaos & death on the galaxy, including Luke's pupil. The Jedi were supposed to be the guardians of peace. Charged with protecting Republic citizens. They failed miserably. What's more a lot of the damage was done by men within their own ranks. Luke's viewpoint & his conclusions may not have been the only ones available, but IMO they were entirely reasonable. In fact almost inescapable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    Mostly Handless likes this.
  16. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Apparently it's implied during his conversation with Yoda that he didn't even bother to read the books. I don't know for you but to me, that doesn't make him look good or smart.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} and kalzeth like this.
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Whether he read every single book or not, I don't think it matters. At a certain point, perhaps even when he arrived on Ahch-To he was clearly done with the Jedi. So his reading enthusiasm probably wasn't at its highest. We saw that he did study Jedi history at some point though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    Mostly Handless likes this.
  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    But it wasn't elitist. It was never presented as such before.

    Not true either. Everyone is "exposed" to the Force. The Jedi are not in charge of the Force nor do they pretend to.

    When was that ever established as a "selection criteria"? And even if it was, so what? It's perfectly natural for them to focus on people with latent potential to be trained as Jedi than to focus on those that don't and would take a life time to be trained.

    So they are making movies where they criticize problems that they've created themselves. Pretty pointless.

    Because they didn't know he was a Sith Lord and had no way of knowing. They haven't seen the movies.

    Welcomed? The army existed and the Republic took it and used it. The Jedi had no say in the matter and even if they did, the Republic was about to be attacked.

    So what? Did they turn evil because they were Jedi, or because they didn't follow the Jedi way? And did Luke forget his whole journey during the OT, what he fought for and accomplished? Did he forget that he saved his own father, the second most evil men in the galaxy?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    {Quantum/MIDI} and kalzeth like this.
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    @Alexrd you've missed the point. I said those were reasonable conclusions for someone reading & getting just an overview of recent Jedi history, from in-universe. No point trying to argue about each item. I disagree completely with each of your comments, & like you I've seen the movies. Luke wouldn't know anywhere near the detail we do, even seeing what the enemy was doing.
     
  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Weren't the books "ancient Jedi history"?

    But you're the one deciding to not refute my points. So much for a discussion then.

    Yeah, it's as if he had no ability to talk to a couple of Jedi from that time that could clarify things for him...
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What do those books have to do with anything? Why would we assume he learned about Jedi history from them? He probably did so years earlier, from other sources. Jedi archives on Coruscant, Lor San Tekka, etc.
    Bcs I'm talking about Luke's pov. I'm not going to impersonate Luke & have some weird semi in-universe debate with you.
    I suspect they'd tell him exactly how I described it. Including all of those pathetic failures. Daily meetings with a Sith Lord for years who then dismantles the Order & kills millions of people! What a humiliating embarrassment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  22. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    But Luke didn't become John Calvin. That might have actually made some sense.

    He didn't form an anti-Force Crusade to end all Force users, dark and light, until the Force was *free*.

    And Yoda had even less sense about him. Not a big surprise considering he was not the correct Yoda from TESB. Learn from your failures, but stop reading the books of history.

    Let your students spread their wings and learn from them. Maybe Yoda should have listened to Luke then? And which student was Luke supposed to learn from? Not Rey as she wasn't really a student. He's supposed to learn from Kylo? I guess, because that's the only living student the audience is aware of. But his confrontation was anything but an open ear.

    Meanwhile, the galaxy is going down the drain in a flash while the "good guys" bicker. Way to go New Hope. Way to go.
     
    La Calavera and kalzeth like this.
  23. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    Bryan Young is in form...

    In the Last Jedi, Luke Skywalker explains that the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, and hubris. And it's hard to argue with him. Over the course of the prequel trilogy and Clone Wars, it's pretty apparent. Maybe Luke Skywalker didn't watch the Prequels and the Clone Wars, but my feeling is that Rian Johnson certainly did and we're all better for it. Though I would like to have been a fly on the wall when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda broke down all that history for him. To start, we need to go to The Phantom Menace. (It always blows my mind when people suggest you need to skip it because there's nothing important there, because everything important is there.)

    Qui-Gon is an atypical Jedi. He's tapped into the Living Force. He's all about saving people everyone thinks are worthless. He's more worried about living in the moment than random anxiety about the future. But even still, Qui-Gon is still trapped in some of that Jedi dogma and teaching. Midi-chlorians are one example. He's sitting here wowed by how powerful Anakin is in the force but still wants the midi-chlorian sample. The idea that the Jedi have abandoned some part of their spiritual connection to the Force for science should have been a major red flag for us. But let's take this to the Jedi Council. What happens when Qui-Gon tells them that he's reasonably certain he fought a Sith Lord on Tatooine?
    "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennia."
    "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowning."
    "Ah. Hard to see the dark side is."

    That's it. "We don't believe you, what else have you got for us?" And they move onto other business. We know this is a Sith Lord gunning for revenge against the Jedi and the Jedi Council, in a literal ivory tower, handwave that away like it's no big deal if it exists at all. They do this A LOT.

    Palpatine is over here playing chess to take all their pieces and the Jedi Council don't even realize the opening moves have been made. That's part of Palpatine's brilliance, right. Who thinks the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is going to be the opening gambit to end the Jedi? This opening move yielded Sheev Palpatine the chancellorship. To take the chess analogy one step further, the Naboo gambit was moving his own piece as a pawn to the back row to trade it for a Queen. We see that Palpatine is looking for other pieces to play as well. It's not a secret that the Jedi Council isn't keen on training Anakin. He's already a point of contention for them. Naturally, Palpatine will "watch his career with great interest."
    The piece the Jedi sacrificed without realizing it was their most important Knight. Qui-Gon. Because of their hubris, they kept him from being on the council as a guiding voice. Obi-Wan mentions this pretty blatantly that if Qui-Gon stuck to the code and the dogma a little more closely he'd be on the council. "You still have much to learn," Qui-Gon tells him with a wry smile and affection in his voice. But The Phantom Menace ends, Palpatine is in power, and the one Jedi who could probably right the ship is dead. Fast forward to Attack of the Clones.

    This is where Palpatine starts directly challenging the Jedi. The conflict on Naboo was handled in a catch as catch can sort of way. But here he's laid out the groundwork in a way they don't even see coming. In fact, Palpatine was had begun moving the pieces that attack in Episode II even before he became Chancellor. Master Sifo-Dyas was killed and Dooku was turned while Valorum was still Chancellor. The order for the Clone Army was placed shortly thereafter. There's some speculation that Dooku hadn't officially left the Jedi yet when he'd turned apprentice to Sidious, and part of that is in the deletion of Kamino in the archive records. And it played right into more hubris of the Jedi, in this case, Jocasta Nu, the worst librarian in the history of the galaxy. Honestly, what kind of arrogance does it take to say, "Nope. If the thing you're looking for doesn't exist in our current record of knowledge, it doesn't exist."? It's mind boggling. Palpatine knows the Clone Army is ready and has continued to push the military creation act. Senator Amidala is the chief opponent to it. When her assassination doesn't work, why not attach that piece he'd collected from Phantom Menace to that problem?

    It's no accident that Palpatine suggests Anakin and Obi-Wan for the job to protect Padme. There's a number of reasons for it, but chief among them, no doubt, is that Palpatine knows Anakin's feelings for Padme. In fact, Palpatine is the only person across AotC and RotS that treats Anakin like a friend with a sympathetic ear, who tells him everything you'd want a friend to say to you. We know Palpatine has kept in touch. Why not? This kid saved his planet. He's a hero. All of the Jedi stick to the Dogma. "Don't get attached. Forget about your mom. Don't like Padme." There's literally no humanity to their treatment of his concerns. Palpatine is the only one who shows that to him. I don't think Qui-Gon would have made that mistake.
    So, Palpatine uses Qui-Gon's signature move against the Jedi and gets the kind-hearted Gungan to propose the military creation act and create the first significant test of the Jedi to sell out their ideals in his direction. Step by step he will do this and it's stunning to watch. He'll force them to take one more step away from themselves. Then another. And another. Until it's too late.

    In Phantom Menace, think back to the words of Qui-Gon on the eve of the Battle of Naboo. "I can only protect you. I can't fight a war for you." In the beginning of Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu agrees with this. "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." And what happens to the Jedi the second there's an army that needs commanding? They take on military titles and start fighting this war with them. Hypocrisy. Hubris. Failure. But this isn't the end of it. As the Clone Wars unfold, they do, indeed, become soldiers. There are Jedi who turn dark in revolt to this dark turn, from Bariss Offee to Pong Krell. The cognitive dissonance literally turns them to the dark side. My favorite example of hypocrisy happens to be from Mace Windu, though, and it starts right at the beginning of Attack of the Clones.

    Padme, rightly, tells Windu that she thinks Dooku is behind the assassination attempt. Windu doesn't believe her and says, "As you know, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He wouldn't assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." And then, at the beginning of Christie Golden's wonderful book, Dark Disciple, which is based on unused scripts from The Clone Wars, it opens with Mace Windu telling the council "We need to assassinate Dooku if the war is going to end." If that doesn't prove how corrupt the war made them, I don't know what does. And this isn't the first or last time they're told the truth and simply don't believe it.
    Dooku flat out tells Obi-Wan EVERYTHING on Geonosis. About Sidious. About Naboo and the Trade Federation. That the Senate is in control of a Sith Lord. Period. Obi-wan's response? "I don't believe you. The Jedi would be aware of it." ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MAN?
    The Jedi spend the entire war like this. They don't ask questions about what's going on and they just assume that if there was a problem they would know about it. But, in addition to the hypocrisy, there's that lack of compassion that bites them in the ass, too, specifically with Anakin at the close of the war.

    At the Battle of Coruscant, Anakin and Obi-Wan are ordered to the Invisible Hand, to rescue the Chancellor and face Dooku and Grievous, hopefully for a final time. Obi-Wan, Anakin confront Dooku in a situation that looks visually tied to the throne room scene in Return of the Jedi. Obi-Wan is taken out of the fight and Anakin must face Dooku alone, under the watchful eyes of Palpatine. This is his enemy. This is the person who cut his arm off. This is the person who has kept this war going and kept him from his wife. When he disarms him and the Chancellor chides him to "Do it," he does it, but regrets it. Something else happens, too. Palpatine lets him know that revenge is natural. "Remember what you told me about the sand people... and your mother?" I think Padme and Palpatine might have been the only two people Anakin felt honest enough with to tell about this. And after what they did to his padawan, I'm surprised he ever trust a Jedi again.
    I'm glossing over it here, but Ahsoka leaving the Jedi order over their treatment and distrust of her is another huge lynchpin in this story of their failure and hubris. They ABSOLUTELY failed that girl by not sticking by her and not believing her, and then only when the proof was undeniable did they say, "Hey, welcome back to the club." She was completely right to turn her back on them.

    But Anakin's murder of Dooku caused a conflict in him. It WAS the wrong thing to do. You don't just murder an unarmed prisoner (even if you're the one who cut his hands off.) "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." This is a line Anakin uses to voice the frustration and confusion he feels in the gap between his teachings and his actions. This Dooku thing is eating him up. This is Palpatine beginning his end game. Palpatine is using Anakin against the Jedi and playing him against himself. "The Jedi don't trust me, I need your voice there. I'm not going to tell you that they'll treat you like crap and mistrust you, but it's going to have a purpose for me later." Palpatine isn't stupid. He knows how the Jedi Council is going to react to Anakin being appointed by him to the council. And he knows they will NEVER send him solo on a mission to defeat Grievous. But Anakin's ego makes him think he DESERVES all this. So when they act exactly like you would expect (and as Palpatine expected) it's easier to turn Anakin against them, especially against the backdrop of Ahsoka's departure from the order.

    When Grievous is dead and Anakin reports to Mace Windu that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Anakin does EXACTLY what a Jedi was supposed to. But Windu still doesn't believe him. "If what you've told me is true, you'll have earned my trust." But Anakin never earned Windu's trust. No one but Windu ever did. And when he walks in on Windu about to murder Palpatine the same way he did Dooku, he feels the Jedi are all selfish liars. Windu is technically correct. Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive. But Palpatine, with the help of the Jedi order, had twisted the boy into becoming what he was. But this isn't his only reason. We haven't even talked about Padme's pending death. And the response to these visions from the Jedi and Palpatine offer stark contrasts.
    Anakin goes to Yoda and Yoda gives him a very zen answer, "Rejoice for those around you for those who transform into the force. Mourn them do not, miss them do not. Learn to let go of the things you fear to lose." While this answer is correct, it's more difficult. A bitter pill. And the last thing you want to hear if your loved one is dying. Anakin already made a promise over the grave of his mother to NEVER let a loved one die if he could help it again. This is bad news to him. But what does Palpatine tell him? Not only that it's a totally natural thing to want to keep your wife, maybe if we work together, we can figure out how to save her, how to cheat death...
    "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life." This is what Anakin understood being a Jedi to be. And the Jedi showed him none of it. They didn't know to. They were too sure of themselves. And they KNOW they're too sure of themselves. Yoda tells this to Obi-Wan flat out in AotC when Obi-Wan says Anakin is arrogant. "A flaw more and more common in Jedi these days. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones."

    Naturally, Windu's lack of trust, arrogance, and departure from Jedi ideals put him in a situation where Anakin could stop him, Anakin did. Palpatine backed the Jedi into corner after corner after corner, even making it look like HE was the one being backed into a corner, until they literally cut each other's hands off and killed their own younglings. They were so keen to be generals, they spread across the galaxy with troops they didn't know enough about, and were turned on. The Jedi order ignored the rise of this darkness and clung to their own understanding of things, their own dogma, despite the warning signs. And they paid the price for it. How do you think this story played into Luke checking in on Ben that night? Did Luke want to ignore the darkness as the Jedi had before? Was he making the same mistake?

    I've heard some people say Luke's speech was a shot at the prequels, but I don't see it that way. I see the prequels as a haunting cautionary tale and Luke, standing in that young boys bedroom, didn't know what lesson to learn from them.
     
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  24. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    I don't agree with this but my main problem is that he's pulling from the the books and outside material, trying to confirm his perspective. Besides that, once again, he puts too much emphasis of the blame on the Jedi. Yet I'm not surprised of his assessment. Seems to be a pretty common and somewhat shallow argument that is always made whenever I see fans trying to explain the downfall.
     
  25. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    TBH I feel as if the PT goes out of it's way to show the Jedi Order as a flawed organisation. In TPM we see that Qui-gon is excluded from the council because of his insistence on following the living force...
    "Do not defy the councli master, not again."
    "I shall do what I must, Obi-wan."
    "If you would just follow the code, you would be on the council."

    Qui-gon feels he must defy the council and the code in order to follow the will of the Force. Neither is he taken seriously by them, his suspicion that Maul is a Sith are brushed off despite the fact that it is correct...
    "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing."
    That is the hubris of the Jedi, the belief that they were infallible. They believed that once evil was vanquished, it would stay that way forever. It didn't.
    [​IMG]
    Tragically, the shortsightedness of the Jedi council ends up costing Qui-gon his life. Only at his funeral, is Mace willing to admit that the deceased might have been right.

    Neither is this the only occasion that a Jedi demonstrates belief in the Order's infallibility...
    "What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith."
    "No that's not possible, the Jedi would be aware of it."
    "The Dark-side of the Force has clouded their vision my friend."

    Again hubris. The Jedi are not willing to believe that their enemy could fly under the radar, and outmanoeuvre them the way that Sidious does until the eleventh hour.

    Conclusion: GL deliberately wrote a Jedi Order whose damming flaw was a belief in it's own infallibility.

    Question: If you feel that Young is incorrect in his reading of the films, how do you think the Jedi fell?