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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Mega thread: Sequels and spinoff films and the overall saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by anakinfansince1983 , Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    This goes back to the classic question:

    Would you kill baby Hitler if you had the chance?
     
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  2. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    You mean would you kill baby Hitler idiot underling if you had the chance.
     
  3. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    Of course it is, hence the catastrophic consequences of that one moment.

    The difference between what Luke did, and say Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep was the motivation behind it. Sidious always planned to kill his master, that is the way of the Sith. Luke, by contrast, acted rashly in a moment of panic, then spent the rest of his life mired in crippling shame as a result.

    You left before Kylo became Supreme Leader?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  4. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    A title doesn't make one "Hitler"
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    He ignited his lightsaber & thought about using it for a second then decided not to. If he hadn't changed his mind Ben would be dead.
    Anakin was an idiot underling & look how he turned out. Anyway I don't know what you're arguing about. Apart from one brief moment Luke agrees with you. He couldn't go through with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  6. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Then would you kill Hermann Göring, Hitler's de facto second in command?
     
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  7. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    And killing Anakin would have done nothing to stop the Empire. In fact, it would have resulted in an Empire lasting beyond RotJ.

    Do you know anybody that has pulled a weapon on somebody else with intent to kill that then "didn't go through with it". Would you still view them the same way after?

    It would have actually made more sense in terms of characters to have Kylo pull a saber on Luke in his sleep and not going through with it leading to Luke kicking him out of the Order. Or what if Luke logically assumed his life was in danger and defended himself? Now they are just engaged in a battle. And Luke wins and finds out there are others in the Order that side with Kylo. Should Luke go kill them?

    @Outsourced
    That's Hux.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  8. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Mace would have killed Palpatine, and Order 66 would never have been called.

    Then Kylo is 3rd. The exact position doesnt matter. If you could kill one of the top three officers in the Nazi Party before their rise to power, would you do it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  9. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You don't know that. Anakin was a prominent person in those events. Take one key person out of it & the whole course of history could change.
    Would depend on the circumstances. If the impulse lasted for only a second & they chose against that action then absolutely I might understand that. In this case with Luke & Ben I see no issue. Just an unfortunate outcome.
     
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  10. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Who would have told Mace that Palpatine is Sidious?
    Mace wasn't the Chosen One, so with story certainty, that would not have happened even if Mace somehow found out Palpatine was Sidious.
    These are details that are part of a story with an actual point.

    Using the rules of the Star Wars galaxy, the future is always in motion. What I am seeing is one possible future, but uncertain.

    So, of course not.

    Minority Report
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  11. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    But you've made it very clear in your previous posts that you don't really want to use the rules of the Star Wars Galaxy, See:

    So, actually, no. My question stands until you stop beating around the bush.
     
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  12. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    Maybe so, but his acts in both TFA and TLJ do make him guilty of mass murder (just like Hitler) nevertheless.
     
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  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    In ROTJ, Luke is enraged by his father foretelling of his sister turning to the darkside. To the point that he's just about to kill him in anger before the Emperor reminds him of how he is following in his father's footsteps.

    This time, Luke senses the darkness that has already grown in Ben and which he can see in the future.

    The stakes involved in Ben's potential future are arguably much higher. This is the son of Leia, for whom Luke almost turned. It's understandable that the premonition would fill him with at least the same fear. But he again displayed the wisdom that he had shown in RotJ. Tragically though, not soon enough to prevent Ben from noticing.
     
  14. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    In the Star Wars galaxy, *human* emotion and interaction still applies.
    In the real world, the *Force* does not apply.

    And the circumstances of going back in time to kill somebody is so far fetched as to be pointless. So if I use Star Wars galaxy rules, no. If I use real world rules, no. I'd never be a vigilante as the guilt of killing somebody just because I thought they might be bad in the future would be a paradox of emotion.

    Situation 1: Luke is in a setting outside of his control
    Situation 2: Luke is in a setting completely in his control

    I guess if Luke noticed that Vader's taunt might mean he might not have good in him, he waited for the Death Star staff including Vader and Palps to go to sleep, and then instead of escaping, he went into Vader's quarters to kill him ....

    Yes. Completely identical situations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Coldly & calmly analysing & judging Luke's actions is pointless. There's no empathy in that. His reaction was about the way his look into Ben's future made him feel. His momentary impulse was an emotional one. He described it as a "moment of pure instinct". He didn't ponder it & weigh the pros & cons. He instinctively wanted to save & protect all of those innocent lives, & for a second that instinct almost overcame him. Yet he was strong enough to gather & compose himself.
     
  16. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm sure Kylo's destruction of the Temple was him just blowing off steam. Not that Luke would even know if Kylo actually destroyed the temple. He was out cold after Ben used his defensive move to incapacitate him. Maybe Luke destroyed the Temple because he was trying to kill Ben. Luke has been known to lie about what happened that night.
     
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  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You've crossed from discussion into flippant trolling. Will leave you to it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  18. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I just joined in.

    You also haven't seen Ep9, so you can't really claim it is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The situations don't need to be identical. It's the people involved and the emotions at play for Luke.
     
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  20. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 11, 2017
    Right...I suppose murdering his fellow students was "just blowing off steam" too?:confused:

    Dude, the building was on fire and there were dead bodies everywhere. How could Luke not know what happened?
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Perhaps Luke foresaw exactly what was to happen to the temple and his students at the moment he ignited his saber in Ben's hut.
     
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  22. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Perhaps Kylo's buddies killed the others with Kylo actually killing one of the murderers to stop them .. a la Rey's saber vision.

    But back to the point, dude, we watched Luke pull out his gun and cock it. People will end relationships because somebody carelessly waves an unloaded and uncocked gun in their direction. People will absolutely end a friendship where the other has pointed the gun at them with the intent to kill them.

    There is absolutely no excuse for what Luke did. And it isn't the equivalent of just making a quick mistake. Heck, it is premeditated. Luke obviously went in there already worried about what he thought he noticed earlier. Did he not take the time to even think out what if scenarios including "what if I see something really bad (but unverifiable by SW galaxy rules)"? Heck, I do that when I call to dispute a utility bill. He couldn't do it for this?
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    False equivalence. How did Luke know for certain that the baby would become "Hitler"? Nobody can make a definitive claim about the future, which has been established to always be in motion.

    And even if there was a certainty that the baby would become Hitler in the future, the baby still wouldn't be Hitler in that moment. And even if it was Hitler in that moment, Luke probably would try to save him, not kill him. So no matter how many times one tries to excuse or twist things, it's morally wrong and against his character to even consider such thing.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Nonsense. Good people can consider doing something they wouldn't normally do. It's the bad people who actually do it.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Who is making excuses?

    Perhaps the only excuse Luke needs is for having a saber in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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