Saga Mega thread: Sequels and spinoff films and the overall saga

You missed the point. This villain is not new.

 

Hold your horses on the visual dictionary.

I agree the trailer should come soon. Perhaps early February. (hopefully)

 

Already have my origin story for Han Solo. AC Crispin trilogy from the 90's.
Give me the background info on stuff seen in the movie. Corellia, Kessel, the Corellian system, other planets, Mimban, minor characters, etc. Rogue One was amazing in that regard.

 

In this case it does given what we know about Snoke.

 

No, it doesn’t. Palpatine was a threat to the entire Galaxy, and he was defeated. That’s not insignificant just because another villain comes around at some point.

While Snoke was alive during the Imperial era, he wasn’t active, and thus not a threat. He emerged as a threat later.

This isn’t a case where it’s like “oh, the Emperor was defeated, but the REAL bad guy is still out there!!!”. If it were, I could understand your point of view, but it isn’t. Palpatine was the real bad guy. Snoke is an entirely separate character.

 

I'm still confused as to how the richest person in the galaxy was hiding completely undetected by richpeople.holo and swtmz.holo.

 

Why? Didn't he lust for power then? Was he not powerful then? Nobody sensed him then? How did he come to be in the position that he's in in the ST? You don't get to shoehorn such a significant change with no explanation whatsoever and then not have people complain about such a big hole in the overall plot.

 

He's from the Unknown Regions of the galaxy. There's a clue in the title of that region that gives us the answer.

All questions that people could've asked about Palpatine while watching the OT. Sticking a roman numeral at the beginning of ANH, years after its release didn't solve those mysteries. Nothing was answered for another 16 years. People here are complaining about Snoke's lack of backstory a few weeks after the second movie!

 

Why is this an issue?
In the PT we learn that the last time the sith was powerful was 1000 years ago.
That empire was overthrown, how is not said, and the sith was thought to have been wiped out. Again how is not explained.
But the sith were alive and stayed hidden for 1000 years, waiting and plotting.
And not once did any Jedi sense anything.
And for all that time, the sith were apparently content to wait and plan and not make a grab for power just for the sake of it.

If one has no problem with this in the PT then it would be hard to figure that Snoke simply waited and kept quiet as Palpatine would likely try to kill him if he knew about him.

I think that the ST could have explained some things better and how much the FO's strength grew from TFA to TLJ is a bit jarring to me.

Get a full backstory on Snoke?
Since the OT worked fine without this for Palpatine, I don't view it as necessary.
And no, the OT was not "incomplete".
All you needed to know was in those films.
That you could do more films set before it does not make it "incomplete".

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Not only there was no need to ask questions since we didn't know what came before but since the OT were episodes IV, V and VII, we did know there was a story to be told. That's not the case here.

No, but gave room for them. There's no room between VI and VII. The latter is a direct sequel to the former. The burden is on VII.

 

I believe the context is quite different. We learn rightaway in ANH that there was the Old Republic under the protection of the Jedi, the Jedi were betrayed and murdered and the Old Republic was abolished to make place for an Empire with the Emperor (sic) being in charge of it.

That's the minimal amount of exposition the audience could ask for, in contrast I have learned nothing from either TFA or TLJ to get the minimal amount of understanding where this Snoke character came from.

 

Yes, we did. We learn nothing on the ST of the main villain.

Of course it is explained. They were defeated by the Jedi. Hence why they want revenge.

Exactly. We, the audience, were informed of all that.

We were told why they didn't. Not the case here.

Again, we were told and shown all that in the movies. Not the case here.

I didn't have to figure it out in the PT. I was shown and told what I needed to know. I was not shown what I needed to know in the ST (anyone can play guessing games, but that's all that is), which had the burden to explain what happened the moment they decided to come up with something.

I don't need a full backstory. I need an explanation for the position that he's in and the power that he holds after what was established in ROTJ.

False dichotomy, which is my point.

It was incomplete the moment we were told they were episodes IV, V and VI.

 

In the OT you don't know where the Emperor "came from" either. You know the name of his regime & the name of the regime it replaced. In the ST you know that Snoke leads the FO. You know what regime they evolved from. I'm not seeing much of a difference. In fact you know more about the FO since you're so familiar with the Empire from which it evolved.

Exactly. Even in the PT we don't get Palpatine's backstory. From the opening scene of TPM he's already the same guy he was in the OT, only with a better complexion. He's a Sith Master. With his own apprentices & seemingly complete mastery of the Force.

We weren't told how the Sith stayed hidden for 1000 years. Presumably they "just were". So we know that it's quite possible to do that. In fact it can be done every generation for an entire millennium. So why on earth would someone question how Snoke could remain unnoticed for one mere lifetime? What an ignorant query to raise within this Saga. You'd expect that to come from some newbie who's only watched TFA.

& there's no room for that story now?? We have Ep IX which could provide some more backstory of events. The current model of the Saga also includes spin-off movies. Your claim that "allowing room" for it being the magic cure for the problem doesn't stand up at all. If it is then no problem bcs clearly there is still room. You gave the OT 16 years but you're complaining about the Sequels in the middle of the trilogy? Weeks after the 2nd movie??

How about all of those interviews in the late 80's early 90's where Lucas said that he wouldn't make any further movies, including prequels? That removed the "room" for the Emperor's backstory, until he changed his mind. As soon as he made those statements, was that suddenly an outrageous betrayal of the story? Are you saying the only reason people enjoyed the OT was bcs they thought mysteries like the Emperor would be answered one day in Eps I-III? I don't think so. I don't think anyone was bothered by that at all. Largely bcs there weren't different factions within the fandom where people go online & pretend there's a problem. In order to provide ammunition to fire at the part of the Saga they're not happy with.

If you can ignore all knowledge from your mind & leave only what we see in the OT I'd say that Palps is an even bigger mystery. He's even more of an unresolved enigma. Consider these facts:

- He's mentioned in ANH as the political leader of the Empire. Title: the Emperor. Not a hint of a suggestion that he would be a Force user. In fact it's implied that Vader & Obi-Wan are probably the last Force users left in the galaxy. Now with Luke added.

- He appears in TESB. Suddenly out of nowhere he declares "There's been a great disturbance in the Force" !! Wait, what?? So this 'Emperor' uses the Force. Okay. Remember though we've only heard about the Jedi at this point. No other factions of Force users are ever mentioned in the OT. "Sith" was not a thing (in the movies). Furthermore in ANH Obi-Wan says "The Force is what gives the Jedi his power". Now the Emperor has those powers. So the obvious conclusion after watching TESB is that he's a former Jedi. This throws the likely backstory into disarray. If the Emperor was a Jedi why was Vader so important? Didn't Obi-Wan & Yoda know of him? Why did Tarkin call Vader the last of that religion? Is the Emperor a secret Jedi?

- In fact back when you were watching those movies you'd probably think that Vader was still a Jedi. Just not one who is good & part of the old order of noble Jedi Knights. A "Jedi" could seem to be the name given to someone with those powers. Hence Tarkin's line to Vader & the fact that no other Force using faction are ever mentioned. The conversation between Palps & Vader in TESB reads like two evil Jedi stating that Luke cannot also become one. Later Vader mocks Luke on Bespin, saying "You're not a Jedi yet". This would seem like the plain reading of events. Perhaps more clarification will come in the next movie.

- RotJ: the Emperor mocks the Jedi. Regards a lightsaber as personally unfamiliar & calls it a "Jedi weapon". It's all but stated that he's not & probably never was a Jedi. Yet he has extreme Force powers. Can even shoot lightning out of his hands. What the hell is going on here? Who is this guy? He doesn't seem to be a Jedi so how can he use the Force like this? Why is he claiming to be able to complete the Jedi training of Luke that Ben & Yoda began? Vader says he wants to become Luke's 'Master'. Yet he's not a Jedi. This is so confusing! What terrible storytelling. I can't enjoy these movies without knowing everything! I hope they answer all of this soon, not like 5 years from now!! ....(How does 16 years sound?)

 

What had you learned about the Emperor after just ANH and ESB?
Not much, not even his name.
He can use the Force so is he a Jedi?
How did he become emperor?
How long has he been emperor?
Where did he come from?
Not answered in the OT and yet no one had a problem with this.
And for almost twenty years there was no problem.
And no, the OT did not get "incomplete" by adding a numeral to the title.
All you needed to know was IN the films.

Nope, it is never directly stated that the Jedi overthrew the Sith and almost wiped them out.
It would be a logical conclusion since Maul wants revenge but I have lost count how many times I have been told that the films totally does NOT say this. And the sith were wiped out by their own infighting etc.

So since this is EP VIII and it was established earlier that Sith can hide from other Force users, why do you need to explain how Snoke was not sensed by the Jedi or Palpatine?
The Sith kept hidden for millennia and the Jedi never sensed them.
Yoda kept hidden on Dagobah for 30 years and neither Vader nor Palpatine sensed him.

Were we?
That the Dark side had clouded the Jedi?
So the Jedi were clouded for 1000 years?

And if you use Yoda's "Hard to see the Dark side is.
Does that not apply to Snoke as well?
He is a dark side user and thus hard to see.

You said "Why? Didn't he lust for power then? Was he not powerful then?"
The Sith have lusted for power for a millennia and yet they could contain that lust and keep hidden.
Why can't Snoke?
The Sith are powerful and yet that didn't make the Jedi sense them.

The power hungry and powerful sith could hide for 1000 years and no one knew about them or sensed them.
Why is Snoke an issue then?

The ST is a sequel to the OT and PT.
So that dark side users can hide and be undetected for a long while is established canon and does not need to be repeated.
That dark side users can also be patient and wait for the right time is also established so no need to repeat this either.

The OT did not explain how the emperor became emperor and that was not need there.

And what does RotJ establish?
Palpatine and Vader are dead and the DS2 is destroyed and they lost some ships.
Are all imperials dead? No, they controlled a huge number of worlds so there would be more people and more ships that did survive.
Then TFA establishes that the empire did fall but the FO has risen from it's ruins.
And the FO is led by a dark side user called Snoke.
How did he become leader? How did Nute become the leader of the TF?
How did Dooku become the leader of the seps?
Why did Dooku turn to the dark side?

Nope, as I've said, the OT is a complete story and tells you all you need to know. The PT is just backtsory.
Had the PT not been made, the OT would not be affected in any way.

[/QUOTE]

Still wrong.
A story is complete if you can follow and understand what is happening IN the story.
If the OT was "incomplete" then people back in the 70's and 80's would not have been able to follow or understand what is going on and why.
They did.

How exactly Anakin fell to the dark side is not necessary for the story in the OT.
It might add to it or make it more meaningful or what ever. But it isn't "Necessary."
Same with who exactly Palpatine is, who was Luke and Leia's mother, how did Vader end up in that suit and so on.
The PT gives us more details, expands the story, universe, characters etc.
But it wasn't "needed" to be able to follow and understand the OT.

Snoke is not called a sith so he does not violate the rule of two by being around in the OT/PT.
And since Palpatine is not shown to be omniscient as he did not sense either Yoda or Obi-Wan.
Him not sensing Snoke does not cause a problem.

What bothered me is that the Resistance knew about the FO big ships, like the Dreadnoughts and Snoke's ship. And had apparently fought against some of them.
Did they tell the new Republic this?
If yes, then how come the republic did not do more when the FO is this powerful?
If no, then they are morons.

The Resistance is supported by the New Republic, so they do view the FO as a bit of a threat.
But if the FO is strong enough to conquer the whole republic in weeks and the Resistance knows it.
Then the republic needed to do a lot more than just fund a small group that had fighters and a few ships.
To me, it made better sense with the FO as more of a terrorist group that had limited resources and thus the small resistance was an effective thorn in their side. SKB was not known to anyone and was their big ace in the hole. That they have a massive fleet and people know about it, now the republic seems quite stupid for not doing more about it.
They had seen how bad the empire was, and now here is a big and powerful group that tried to bring it back.
Since I have complained that the Jedi did very little with the TF attacking Naboo, I can not ignore this.
And to me, this is an issue caused by TLJ. To me, TFA did not paint the FO as this strong.
Not counting SKB.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You just can't apply the OT rules on the ST. The ST lies on a legacy of six movies which established a lot, with the destruction of the Sith order being very important. The Sith were the only users of the dark side and now there's a guy who uses the dark side and teaches (although mentioned, we never got to see that) a leader of Knights of Ren. There's obviously a hierarchy of various persons and their affiliations, but besides mentioning them, we see nothing. We know nothing, they're just there.

Palpatine is a senator from Naboo who is secretly a dark lord of the Sith and manipulates galactic events in order to become the Emperor. Again, rules of the PT cannot apply to the ST.

That would be very poor storyteling, IMO. That's why there's the first movie, and probably the second.

That's right. But mostly due to Lucas' execution of the story and the fact that the OT had no movies set before.

I guess Nute was elected, as it happens in corporations. Dooku was positioned by Sidious, who lead the TF and Dooku turned because he was a political idealist.

Now, who's a guy who seduced young Ben Solo, turned him and caused the destruction of Luke's academy, a rift between the Solos and pushed the galaxy into another war (War is exaggerated word as we saw only a battle between the FO and a fistful of so called Resistance fighters)?

 

He really isn't.

This is like saying the FO is different from the Empire. Yes, they have different visuals, but for the most part it is the same trope.

 

And?

 

And it is bad.

Rehashing the same trope with Snoke cheapens the prior six movies. Snoke was a pointless concept IMO. Kylo would have been more interesting if he turned on his own instead of rehashing the Vader/palps storyline.

 

"I guess Nute was elected." So why not guess that the Imperial loyalist in the FO elected Snoke?
They want to bring back the Empire and it was led by a dark side user so they would want one too.
Also, is the TF really a corporation?
They have a seat in the senate, Nute's title is Viceroy, which is;

Not really the title of the head of a company.
And the TF control many worlds, so they come across as more of a nation than a company.

The TF isn't the whole of the seps, there are plenty of others there and we are not shown or told that Sidous had anything to do with Dooku becoming leader.

"He turned because he was a political idealist"?
That makes about as much sense as to say "He turned because he was tall and had a beard."
First, this is what the Jedi say about him and they have no idea about his true goal and agenda.
Second, Dooku wanted to change a democracy to a dictatorship, how does that fit with him being an idealist?
Idealist;

Dooku knew full well that the whole seps thing was just using them to serve his and Sidious goal.

Based on what Dooku himself says, he seemed far more interested in power or he was sad about the death of Qui-Gon.
He gets less of an explanation than Vader in ANH, who has "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."
Dooku gets nothing, he was a Jedi and now he is a sith, no reason given.

Bottom-line, if you demand that the ST show or tell in detail just how Snoke became leader of the FO then you should demand the same from the PT, like how Nute, Dooku became leaders, why Dooku turned etc.
And giving them a pass for not showing it or making up something to explain it and yet refuse to do the same for the ST, that is a double standard.

RE: Snoke and Ben.
The tipping point in Ben turning was not actually Snoke, not directly.
Luke looked into his mind and saw great darkness and in an instant of weakens, he pulled his weapon and thought about using it. But the thought passed but Ben saw Luke with his weapon and leaped to the wrong conclusion.
He pushed Luke away, made some students come with him and killed the rest.

Would this have happened if Luke had not gone to his hut that night?
Hard to say.

Why this caused a rift with the Solo's is made clear. Leia blamed herself for sending Ben away but had hope that he could be reached. Han gave up for a while and rather than deal with the problem, he hid by retreating to what he used to do.
But he made one last attempt.

Snoke himself is not that crucial here, nor was the emperor in the OT. All we know is that he turned Vader and now holds his leash. That was all that was needed because Vader was the more important character.
Same here, Ben/Kylo is the important one, not Snoke.
And the films do deal quite a bit with Ben/Kylo and what he does and why.

@Game3525

Except the major turning point for Ben is when he thinks Luke is trying to kill him and he reacts.
That is different than Vader, who turned because he wanted something.
And another difference is that Kylo kills his evil master but does not turn back to the light.
And this is due to why he kills Snoke.
He didn't do it just because he wanted to save Rey's life.
He saw how much of a slave he was under Snoke, his faith in him was shattered and he saw the chance to kill him and took it.
I do think he cares somewhat for Rey, in that he would prefer that she is by his side rather than dead.
But he is still very selfish so he does not turn back.
So TLJ sort of does what Vader hinted at in ESB; that he and Luke dispose of the Emperor and rule the galaxy.
Snoke is dead but Rey did not join Kylo.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Don't agree at all. This trilogy is not about Snoke! Any more than the OT was about the Emperor. One more line of dialogue about Snoke's backstory would do me. Whether that comes in Ep IX or a spin-off, that'll do.

Which is why the haven't bothered showing us the corruption & seduction storyline (as seen in PT) & why Snoke is dead halfway through the 2nd movie (unlike the Emperor in the OT). Which makes Kylo's arc entirely original from this point forward. We've never seen an evil young apprentice actually dispense with his Master & take over. With a whole movie ahead of us to explore that. It's a completely new development for this Saga.

And there it is. Different rules for the ST. It's fine for the other movies to barely explore the backstories of its villains. Not allowed for the ST

 

Snoke had already corrupted his mind prior to Luke even attempting to kill him.

I agree that killing Snoke was the right move. The character was entirely unnecessary and Ben works better without him IMO. My issue is that if you are going to introduce a character like that you have to provide a little bit of exposition. You don't need a full backstory, but a line by Luke talking to Rey would have solved the entire issue.

 

Any line that reveals info on Snoke will be more about Ben/Kylo. Still time for that in the next movie.

 

But would Ben have turned if the Luke thing had not happened?
We don't know.

[/QUOTE]

Take the OT and the Emperor.
How much were we told about him or what role he played in Vader's turn and what exactly he did?

In ANH he is mentioned but not seen and Vader is said to have been seduced by the Dark Side if the Force. No mention of the Emperor.
In ESB we see him a little and glean that he too can use the Force.
And Obi-Wan says that he does not want to loose Luke to the Emperor like he lost Vader.
So the emperor was involved with Vader's turn but we get no details.
And in RoyJ Luke says, "You won't turn me as you did my father."
Again saying that the emperor was responsible for Vader's turn but again no details.

And we didn't need those details.
The OT isn't about Palpatine, nor is it about exactly how Vader turned to the dark side.
It is about Luke, the danger he faces from the dark side and also him wanting to redeem his father.

The ST isn't about exactly what Snoke did to corrupt Ben or who exactly Snoke is.
We got little about the emperor, not even his name.
And the OT works fine.

So I don't really need more about him, he is dead, move on.
Would I have liked more? Sure, depending on what it was.
But that didn't bother me with TLJ.

I was more bothered with the FO/Resistance bit.
Partly because the FO got so much stronger and also that the FO/Resistance plot was not all that interesting.
It was just a long chase scene, and a not too interesting side-quest added to it.
And it also had a lot of contrivances and characters being stupid because the plot needed them to be.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

So do you guys think Snoke still existing (as a ghost) in Ep9 is feasible?

Or that we are simply meant to take his death at face-value - Kylo is now the big bad?