Memo to George - An extra in a clonetrooper suit is 1000% better than any CGI creation

That freeway was the most blurry CGI I have ever seen.

I thought that was intentional. I had problems with that film (ie giant plot holes), but I thought it looked great visually.

 

it just seems logical that having something real to react to and an actual set to get into and believe in would elicit a more believable performance.

Maybe for the younger, less disciplined actors. But for experienced pros like Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee, acting in front of a bluescreen is no different than acting on a set. I believe it was McDiarmid who said that even when you have a set, you still have use a lot of imagination because you've got lots of equipment right in your face along with a crew of 20 just standing around watching you act, and often times, you can't even see who you're acting against.

The thing is, some of these younger actors need to just shut-up and do their jobs.

 

Maybe, but if you did a film like Gangs of New York with digital sets, props, etc, then you'd likely have people picking apart the CG and not focusing on the story and characters. It depends on the type of film that you're trying to make. Believe it or not, CG does have its limitations and doesn't always equate to being the best tool available.

 

One of the depressing outcome of the CGI invasion is that B directors feel they can now compare themselves to the true greats. If I have to sit through one more self congratulatory interview with the likes of Michael Bay and Steve Sommers comparing themselves to David Lean because they can create digital crowds, I may do something rash. Lean actually had extras there and had to use a small army just to choreograph them. He didn't sit behind a computer watching somebody move a mouse around. Note to all filmmakers of would be epics: Digital crowds were really cool a few years ago, but your ability to cram as many digital extras into a frame does not make you the equivalent of David Lean (this was especially annoying in movies like LOTR and THE MUMMY).

CGI is a great innovation, but, like all tools that the filmmaker has, it can be abused.

 

I am among those who desire men in costumes, rather than CG creatures. This is entirely a personal opinion: I noticed the fake Clonetroopers... I believe if Lucas had used extras in costumes, I wouldn't have been taken out of the moment as I was during the film.

As I've written on many occassions, yes people use CG to complain about poor effects work in general, when the real problem is green screen compositing, image manipulation, etc.

But the GENERAL complaints are always the same:
1. Lucas uses computer effects when it would appear smarter/better to use practical effects/set/extras.
2. Because Lucas has unlimited ability with his special effects, he overuses them.


I believe both complaints have merit. For the TPM DVD, Lucas went back in and added a short scene of an air taxi traveling through Coruscant. This added nothing to the story, it was merely a scene with pretty digital effects. He could have added in a short scene of Qui-Gon slicing down the probe droid... it would have explained story points like why QuiGon and Ani were running ... but for the DVD Lucas chose the air taxi sequence.

I hate to bring up the OT, but back then NOT every scene had to take place in front of a window. As beautiful as the background digital scenery outside of the Jedi Council, Amidala's apartment, Palp's office, etc is... there's certainly a valid point that it can distract from the drama taking place in the foreground.

 

"It seems likely that GL and Spielberg will be having a long chat when it comes time to get going on Indy IV."

oh they have, and im wondering if it will lead to them possibly not making the film. but i think george will back down... i mean the man clearly has a deep down love for money.

oops i mean a deep down love for quality storytelling and great filmmaking.

 

A real pear would have been better!?!?

How?

You float it on a string and erase the string? Yeah... that will look GREAT!

Firstly, it would look like a pear on a string not a pear being levitated by the force. And how about when Padme sticks her fork in it? She'd have to stab at it like a mad fiend to make sure that it wouldn't just bounce off the fork and start wiggling around on it's string. But at least it would be REAL! Thank goodness! A real pear!

Reading this thread makes me physically ill. CGI is the next big thing and it's a good thing that let's artists realize their ideas in ways they never could before. When they think up some newfangled super intelligent space crystal special effects in the future, there will be a whole new group of morons ready to say "I miss CGI!!! It's so much better!!!! Super intelligent space crystal effects look fake!!!!"

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the bathroom vomiting.

 

"For the TPM DVD, Lucas went back in and added a short scene of an air taxi traveling through Coruscant. This added nothing to the story, it was merely a scene with pretty digital effects."

Yeah, all those dang shots of beautiful imagery further establishing the look of coruscant. How terrible. I'm so tired of pretty images, what is Lucas trying to do? Make a film or something?

"i mean the man clearly has a deep down love for money. oops i mean a deep down love for quality storytelling and great filmmaking."

What an intelligent remark... oops, I meant to say that it's utterly moronic.

 

If Lucas ONLY had a love for money, ILM would not longer exist. I've read several times that there were times during the 80s where ILM was losing money but Lucas kept it going anyway because he had faith in ILM. Good for him. He's got the stubborn determination of his creation Indiana Jones.

Love the remarks from Bresson and Darthcorky.
Excellent posts.

 

i hate to say it, but some of you people are complete cowardly morons.

in this thread there have been numerous reasons why cgi clonetroopers are basically better to use than people in suits. we've stated lots of reasons of this, the cost, the time, the money, the blue/green screen reflecting off the armor, the fact that there's way more imperfections in the OT, etc. etc.

everytime someone posts one of these FACTS, you people keep talking about the same old thing. how it "looks better", how you like people in suits more, that cgi is ruining movies, etc. etc.

in other words, you completely ignore the facts.

you then keep talking about what you want.

infact, you'll probably completely ignore this post. you'll just make another post about how you like people in suits more than cgi clonetroopers, and you'll completely ignore the PROBLEMS with the statement that your making.

it's like if you said "i like money and people should give me money for no reason", then someone else says "well i'm sure there's other people who need the money but we can't just start handing out money to people for no reason", and to continue the debate you say "people should give me money for no reason." you completely ignore the facts in almost a comedic fashion. and i'm sick of it, like a few other people in here, i'm sure.

EDIT: DrEvazan proves my point below...

 

ooo just got flamey in here!

its nice to see the best responses some of you can come up with is calling people who disagree "morons and idiots"

please dont whine next time the same happens to you.

 

DrEvazan, i have to agree with darth corky here, that WAS utterly moronic.

and by the way i'm calling these people morons because they are. not because they disagree. because they are completely ignoring facts. it has nothing to do with opinion. did you even read my post?

 

Dmodog's right. I don't care what someone's opinion is if they ignore the points of others. I've read through this whole thread and I've seen little to no rebuttal regarding all the arguments people have brought up in support of real troopers over CG. All you real trooper supporters just barrel on hoping that the people with solid intelligent points will just go away. Then you make silly little posts that don't reply to any of the points that have been raised.

Bravo.

 

it has everything to do with opinion. some people dont like the way it looks. you disagree.

thats opinion.

much like your "facts" are also opinion.

i made it clear that massive epics have been made with real people in costumes many times before. its unfortunate you seemingly have no knowledge of films made before 1980.

your ignorance of those facts doesnt make me think you are a moron... just uninformed.

get over it.

 

i repeat, it has NOTHING to do with opinion.

obviously the real thing looks better than something trying to make it look like the real thing. sure it might look better if we get hundreds of extras that are exactly the same height, or even get [the dude who played jango fett] in the clonetrooper suit himself and make him do all the moves that the clonetroopers make and put them together digitally.

but is it worth it? is it worth the time? the money? the problems they must face?

NO!!!!!!! AND THIS IS THE EXACT POINT WE KEEP POINTING OUT, AND ALL YOU DID, DR EVAZAN, WAS PROVE MY POINT THAT PEOPLE WILL COMPLETELY IGNORE THE FACTS!!!

thanks.

 

Every now and then I have to admit when I am wrong. It's not easy to do, but I can be a man and do it.

Up to this point in my life, I had never studied any of the films that were released before 1980. Now I have taken some time to get a quick overview and my eyes have truly been opened. It appears that in 1959 a film was released with the title "Space Clone Boogaloo." In the film an army of clones fought an army of aliens and robots on an alien planet and it was all done with extras and puppets. The production did bankrupt several small cities, but it was real. No computers needed. I've lost so much respect for George Lucas. If they could do it in 1959, why can't you do it now George? You've really lost it. I hope that the memo that started this thread is sent to Lucas ASAP!

I'm sorry that I defied this thread for so long. All my "facts" were ridiculous and not properly researched.

Please accept my apology.

 

`i made it clear that massive epics have been made with real people in costumes many times before. its unfortunate you seemingly have no knowledge of films made before 1980.'

Were any of those films done in the same way, and as technically demanding, as AOTC though?

 

Cut out flaming and GL bashing, or this gets locked.

 

By the by, as far as matters of opinion...

I agree that real people in clone trooper suits would look better. But it would be darn near impossible to accomplish on any budget. Whether or not it looks good is a matter of opinion, whether or not it would be easier is not. Maybe there's a few people in the world who would prefer spending heaps of money and dealing with thousands of extras instead of booting up a few hard drives, but the VAST majority would find the former to be much more difficult. Whether or not it's worth the extra effort is a matter of opinion, I don't think it would be worth it, but if you do, fine. I will maintain the opinion that if you do think it's worth it, your priorities are ridiculous.

If the whole film was done with extras and only real alien locations with real aliens and whatever else, it would be fantastic, but it's impossible.

You can't compare AOTC to old epics like Lawrence of Arabia. The enormous groups of extras in that film were humans in real world clothes existing in a real world environment. That's much easier than thousands of clones fighting thousands of robots on an alien planet. And if you disagree, your opinion is, in my opinion, completely worthless.

 

In my opinion, this whole thread seemed to be started with GL bashing.

 

btw i have no problem with using CG for crowd scenes.

i just dont think it should be relied upon too heavily, for multiple reasons stated above. especially when the same effect can be achieved through practical means for the same cost and with less effort. the pear for example. if it had been a pear on wires, or even on a green painted rod it not only would have looked better (no transparency, natalie portman's lips and mouth would have not gone through the pear, etc.) but it would have been easier to accomplish. i think the pear is an excellent example of where CG is being overused. you might disagree, therefore i am a moron and your opinion is the only FACT.

i understand its easier to accomplish these scenes using CG. and IMO the easy route is also often the route of the lazy and unimaginative.

 

Sometimes taking the easiest path is motivated by laziness, other times it is a matter of productivity. If Lucas thinks the CG pear or clone trooper looks great and considers it easier to do so, why shouldn't he do it? To please you? In my opinion, you're not worth pleasing. You're the one trying to force your ideas on others. Props on strings is how effects used to be done. George is trying to push the envelope and accomplish new things, not go backwards. Personally I don't want Lucas to spend a great deal more money and time just so that there will be a real pear and a few real troopers. It's just not worth it and would look worse in the opinion of myself and many others.

 

Good night all, I've got to go to sleep so I can lead my real life tomorrow. Please feel free to go on griping about seconds long shots in a film that's over two hours long.

 

drevazan, you are getting fact and opinion heavily confused.

money, time, difficulty, they are all facts.

a bottle of coca cola doesn't cost a dollar because it's opinion, it's a fact.

movies cost money to make, that's a fact.

the more difficult shots you have, the more money you have to spend.

in this case it's the clonetroopers.

making clonetroopers on computers costs less money that hiring extras. it takes less time than shooting it and putting it into computers and putting it onto film. and it's basically a lot easier and quicker than shooting people in suits against a green screen.

this is all fact.

this is opinion: i like the way people in suits look more than cgi clonetroopers.

you have this opinion, and so do i. but sometimes facts get in the way of our opinions. and that's what this is all about.

got it?

 

darth_corky,

Criticism and bashing are two different things although the original post does come off as borderline bashing.

To try and get back to the original topic, I'll simply repeat that the clonetroopers looked great. I have no problem with them being 100% CG, especially since I could have sworn that some of them were "real".

However, there are at least 3 scenes that I have noticed that have consistently been brought up in similar threads as not looking quite right.

1. Threepio in the droid factory when he gets picked up by that machine droid.

2. Anakin riding the Shaak.

3. The pear.

If anything, these are the scenes that should be drawing the kind of negative attention, certainly Threepio, that has been applied to the clonetroopers, IMO.
Like others in this thread, I'm quite baffled and somewhat surprised that the clonetroopers were singled out for criticism.

And when I suggested that it seemed like a real pear might have made more sense, it was just that, a suggestion. After re-reading your post, I'm perfectly willing to admit that CG may have been the only way to go, now that I think about that scene again. Of course, I'm not a CG or special effects technical expert by any stretch so I can't really say whether it was the most appropriate method. At the same time, that still won't prevent people from making comments about how it seemed a bit off since they, like most people, are evaluating the final product on the screen.

Also, if you don't want to talk about these kinds of details and are induced to vomiting, there are probably other threads that you might enjoy more.

Now, if someone can defend Threepio the bendy toy, I'd like to read that post.